can i ask whats so difficult about giving garen and nasus some compensation buffs for item nerfs?

Critmaster Garen·Sep 21, 2016·34 votes·3,167 views

increase garens base health growth to 100/lvl for all the health nerfs on items left and right this season. revert the 5 base ms and 5% q movement speed nerf as compensation for the repeated swifties nerfs which he relies so much on right now thanks to league of rylais, and the boot enchant removals.

nasus probably needs a bit more general scaling changes to give him a better mid and lategame.

buffing these champions is really low risk right now, as theyre not doing well at every level of play. it should be easy to do. they dont need a large rework, just some minor number tune ups.

you dont need to wait until theyre sitting at 40% winrate because of some dumb meta shift.

88 Comments

SkiasSep 21, 201616 votes

Because they are both binary as all get out and cannot be allowed to be too strong without being completely oppressive.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Because they are both binary as all get out and cannot be allowed to be too strong without being completely oppressive.

thats bullshit. garen has been balanced for a whole year until the mage rework and repeated swifties nerfs wrecked him. he was at 55% winrate for garen mains (125+ games) in plat and diamond and has seen some decent play up until then.

the funny thing is, he had almost the same winrate in bronze/silver as in higher divisions. if he were an issue he would have received direct nerfs.

the only nerfs he has received was to almost all of his items. often due to individual champions abusing them.

for nasus it was pretty much the same. item 3025 was a core item for him. the item got nerfed because item 3068 was incredibly strong on a handfull champions.

really all that happened for them were indirect nerfs to their items that werent even targeted at them.

yes, maybe ther items like item 3053 and item 3025 were too strong and too gold efficient and had to get nerfed. but the fact remains that nasus and garen with those overtuned items at the time were balanced. which is a pretty clear case of their numbers just being undertuned.

PermabannedGarenSep 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-09-21T17:14:51.523+0000)

thats bullshit. garen has been balanced for a whole year until the mage rework

No he wasn't. He was shit. If you're a troll pick in masters/challenger you're not good, or even balanced.

Plat and diamond play is not indicative of actual champion strength. Otherwise Tryndamere would be a perfectly balanced and even strong champion and is fine, but you and I both know you don't believe that to be the case.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20165 votes

{quoted}

No he wasn't. He was shit. If you're a troll pick in masters/challenger you're not good, or even balanced.

Plat and diamond play is not indicative of actual champion strength. Otherwise Tryndamere would be a perfectly balanced and even strong champion and is fine, but you and I both know you don't believe that to be the case.

didnt know youre playing at masters/challenger. when did you make it?

and i recall specifically saying he was balanced and decent up until diamond. which he was.

lets be real here. most champions that are viable at challenger/pro play level are because they usually have some gimmick that completely lacks counterplay. (gragas flash/body slam. eves stealth. kindreds level 2 invades before her nerfs).

the champions that are being played there are usually just plain broken in the right hands or have broken kits, or some stupid unfair ability interaction or ability/item interaction that makes them far more reliable than they should be. they usually end up seing significant nerfs as a result. to "keep the pro scene fresh"

personally im not interested in the slightest to change garen or nasus to an LCS or pro play relevant champion. im not gonna be playing tournaments or in challenger anyways. and i dont want them to get nerfed into the ground as a result of seing pro play, just so riot can switch it up for their spectators.

making him a decent pick up until diamond 1 is pretty much enough, and very well possible with his current kit. same for nasus. im saying that because they were already there.

PermabannedGarenSep 21, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-21T19:11:01.863+0000)

didnt know youre playing at masters/challenger. when did you make it?

I'm Faker.

and i recall specifically saying he was balanced and decent up until diamond. which he was.

Arguably, though even then he was always just "worse Darius".

There is no compelling reason to pick him over Darius. Being tankier and very slightly more mobile is not enough.

lets be real here. most champions that are viable at challenger/pro play level are because they usually have some gimmick that completely lacks counterplay. (gragas flash/body slam. eves stealth. kindreds level 2 invades before her nerfs).

Blitz is viable at that elo and he has plenty of counterplay. Darius is and he also has counterplay. Illaoi is and, you guessed it, has counterplay.

the champions that are being played there are usually just plain broken in the right hands or have broken kits, or some stupid unfair ability interaction or ability/item interaction that makes them far more reliable than they should be. they usually end up seing significant nerfs as a result. to "keep the pro scene fresh"

Speaking of unfair abilities, how about the ability to casually 1v1 your laning opponent that made a smart play mid and got a double kill because of the Villain mechanic?

The Villain mechanic is awful. It should have never been created.

personally im not interested in the slightest to change garen or nasus to an LCS or pro play relevant champion. im not gonna be playing tournaments or in challenger anyways. and i dont want them to get nerfed into the ground as a result of seing pro play, just so riot can switch it up for their spectators.

I don't give a shit about making him relevant in the LCS. Just good in high level solo queue.

making him a decent pick up until diamond 1 is pretty much enough, and very well possible with his current kit. same for nasus. im saying that because they were already there.

Not really. With how he currently works he will pretty much always be a strictly inferior Darius unless Darius gets nerfed to trash.

He has less AOE damage than Darius. He has less single target damage than Darius. He has less effective range than Darius. He deals less true damage overall than Darius. He has less team fight power than Darius. He has less dueling strength than Darius. He has less in-combat sustain than Darius. He has less utility than Darius. He has less damage against tanks than Darius. He has less damage against squishies than Darius. I might be forgetting some other advantage Darius has over Garen, but to compensate for these inferiorities to Darius, Garen is tankier (which doesn't actually help him do his job, which is kill enemies), slightly more mobile, and of course, has the Villain mechanic which is unreliable cheesy bullshit meant to compensate for all the things that make him sort of like Darius, only shittier. Because if Garen actually did some of those things better than Darius the Villain mechanic would make him absurd. Imagine if he had superior single target damage, tank-shredding, and dueling potential to Darius (which you would think his kit would support). Now imagine him doing that while also benefiting from the Villain mechanic.

The Villain mechanic is a crutch. While it exists Garen won't be allowed to be anything more than a worse and unreliable Darius.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I'm Faker.

Arguably, though even then he was always just "worse Darius".

There is no compelling reason to pick him over Darius. Being tankier and very slightly more mobile is not enough.

Blitz is viable at that elo and he has plenty of counterplay. Darius is and he also has counterplay. Illaoi is and, you guessed it, has counterplay.

Speaking of unfair abilities, how about the ability to casually 1v1 your laning opponent that made a smart play mid and got a double kill because of the Villain mechanic?

The Villain mechanic is awful. It should have never been created.

I don't give a shit about making him relevant in the LCS. Just good in high level solo queue.

Not really. With how he currently works he will pretty much always be a strictly inferior Darius unless Darius gets nerfed to trash.

He has less AOE damage than Darius. He has less single target damage than Darius. He has less effective range than Darius. He deals less true damage overall than Darius. He has less team fight power than Darius. He has less dueling strength than Darius. He has less in-combat sustain than Darius. He has less utility than Darius. He has less damage against tanks than Darius. He has less damage against squishies than Darius. I might be forgetting some other advantage Darius has over Garen, but to compensate for these inferiorities to Darius, Garen is tankier (which doesn't actually help him do his job, which is kill enemies), slightly more mobile, and of course, has the Villain mechanic which is unreliable cheesy bullshit meant to compensate for all the things that make him sort of like Darius, only shittier. Because if Garen actually did some of those things better than Darius the Villain mechanic would make him absurd. Imagine if he had superior single target damage, tank-shredding, and dueling potential to Darius (which you would think his kit would support). Now imagine him doing that while also benefiting from the Villain mechanic.

The Villain mechanic is a crutch. While it exists Garen won't be allowed to be anything more than a worse and unreliable Darius.

i still see no reason that until they give him larger changes again (if that is riots plan) he should just sit in the dumpster for 2 more years.

but thats exactly whats going to happen if he doesnt just get some simple number buffs. they will just leave him untouched until "they get around to larger changes" which is pretty much never because theyre always going to have some other priorities. and his kit isnt problematic or toxic.

even when someone is tagged as the villain in lane somehow hell have to play more mindful of garens damage potential. but thats basically it. the true damage in his kit is there to allow garen to build heavy on defense an still deal reliable damage. same reason darius has his massive ad steroid on his passive, and the passive armor pen on his e.

either way if they give him another rework or not, its kinda neccessary that he has it. or were going back to pre rework garen who gets facetanked by adc on a bruiser build and blown up before he makes two steps on an ad build.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-21T19:52:33.677+0000)

i still see no reason that until they give him larger changes again (if that is riots plan) he should just sit in the dumpster for 2 more years.

but thats exactly whats going to happen if he doesnt just get some simple number buffs. they will just leave him untouched until "they get around to larger changes" which is pretty much never because theyre always going to have some other priorities. and his kit isnt problematic or toxic.

even when someone is tagged as the villain in lane somehow hell have to play more mindful of garens damage potential. but thats basically it. the true damage in his kit is there to allow garen to build heavy on defense an still deal reliable damage. same reason darius has his massive ad steroid on his passive, and the passive armor pen on his e.

either way if they give him another rework or not, its kinda neccessary that he has it. or were going back to pre rework garen who gets facetanked by adc on a bruiser build and blown up before he makes two steps on an ad build.

Although number changes would be a good bandaid, permabanned garen is right, garen is just about everything darius is but tuned down.

Garen is going to need another small scale rework on his passive mostly and his ultimate to make him viable alongside darius instead of outright inferior to darius.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Although number changes would be a good bandaid, permabanned garen is right, garen is just about everything darius is but tuned down.

Garen is going to need another small scale rework on his passive mostly and his ultimate to make him viable alongside darius instead of outright inferior to darius.

even if they decided to give him another rework. judging by the pace riot has been moving and splitting their focus between an ever increasing champion pool, there is no reason to assume that this wouldnt take years until that happened.

i mean look at how many champions they have released since azir, have received multiple sets of larger changes. out of almost 140 champions, every new champion theyre working on multiple patches in a row means it becomes less likely that older champions are even considered for any changes. theyre just indefinitely being pushed back on the priority list.

until then, while he wouldnt be competitive in pro play, garen can be competitive in solo que. simple number buffs would do it right now.

people who enjoy playing a couple of particular champions are essentially benched for entire seasons until some miracle meta shift happens and their champion randomly benefits from some indirect change.

im not a meta slave. im not going to jump on the bandwagon of some champion whos currently op and i dont enjoy playing just for the sake of climbing.

im just asking that theyre keping an eye on champions who arent even problematic to balance (like the likes of azir, eve, or leblanc who quickly become broken when buffed) and give them some slight buffs to keep them viable when theyre dropping off too far.

there was no reason Jax was sitting in limbo as long as he did either when he dropped off after being balanced for almost two years, because riot did one of their massive game overhauls.

MrStealYoGanksSep 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-09-21T17:14:51.523+0000)

thats bullshit. garen has been balanced for a whole year until the mage rework and repeated swifties nerfs wrecked him. he was at 55% winrate for garen mains (125+ games) in plat and diamond and has seen some decent play up until then.

His win rate is at 48.81% which isn't bad at all is damn near what Riot aims for with 50% wr. Wanting to put him over the win rate at what currently Jinx is at (54.25%), is pure stupidity. Garen is currently in a fine place, just because you have to pick your engages with a little more caution due to item nerfs isn't a good enough excuse to bring back old Garen from the Juggernaut meta.

The only people really complaining about item nerfs on tanks are probably the same people that loved the Juggernaut meta and couldn't adjust when Riot changed the meta again. Granted tank Ekko is an issue that hasn't really been properly addressed, but Garen and the rest of the spin-to-win champs (Susan isn't spin-to-win but farm under turret and it's GG) are in a decent place in the current meta.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

His win rate is at 48.81% which isn't bad at all is damn near what Riot aims for with 50% wr. Wanting to put him over the win rate at what currently Jinx is at (54.25%), is pure stupidity. Garen is currently in a fine place, just because you have to pick your engages with a little more caution due to item nerfs isn't a good enough excuse to bring back old Garen from the Juggernaut meta.

The only people really complaining about item nerfs on tanks are probably the same people that loved the Juggernaut meta and couldn't adjust when Riot changed the meta again. Granted tank Ekko is an issue that hasn't really been properly addressed, but Garen and the rest of the spin-to-win champs (Susan isn't spin-to-win but farm under turret and it's GG) are in a decent place in the current meta.

you also have to see the playrate of a champion with that.

jinx is played in 20% of the games right now with that winrate. usually when champions have low playrates, they have very high winrates, since theyre only rarely picked into specific matchups by their mains.

urgot has 51% winrate right now, and no one would argue that hes a strong champion.

champions who have a high playrate usually have their winrate lowered because a lot of people who arent very proficient at the champion are jumping on the fotm bandwagon.

jinx sitting at 54% winrate with that playrate is massive. while garen barely sees any games at all, and if he does he loses more often than he wins.

MrStealYoGanksSep 22, 20161 votes

Urgot you mean the champ that has the nickname Urgod?

You've brought no argument to the table as Garen is damn near 50% win rate for his play rate which means he's in a good spot. You have no argument to form against that. Garen's pick rate is sitting around 4% which is drastically less than Jinx so you're comment about "when champions have low playrates, they have very high winrates" is already invalid (your logic doesn't even make sense for that entire paragraph). Jinx has a high pick rate out of the ADCs she sits consistently around 3rd place. I don't think you understand what is considered a high pick rate in League considering Lucian is the most picked for ADC currently at 32% (48% win rate)which honestly isn't that much more than Jinx who is starting to see more play since they buffed her ult. Jinx is currently sitting at 6th overall for pick rate with Lucian sitting at the top.

You quite literally brought no valid points to why Garen should even see a buff. You have no argument to dissuade me that he isn't sitting pretty at damn near 49% (1.19% off exactly from where he should be in a perfect world). League is a game where the meta will continue to change until Riot damn near halts releasing champions and focuses purely on balance but that isn't happening anytime soon. If you can't keep up with meta that isn't an issue worth Riot's time, with Garen nearly sitting at 50% win rate (overall) there is no reason for them to change him until he drops to 45% or lower, especially considering that Garen's win rate when a match has lasted 25-35 minutes increases to 50-52%. That alone shows he does what he's supposed to mid-late game.

If anyone needs a buff (probably a rework) it's Nunu who is sitting at 40% and continues to drop.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Urgot you mean the champ that has the nickname Urgod?

You've brought no argument to the table as Garen is damn near 50% win rate for his play rate which means he's in a good spot. You have no argument to form against that. Garen's pick rate is sitting around 4% which is drastically less than Jinx so you're comment about "when champions have low playrates, they have very high winrates" is already invalid

its not invalid. and the argument makes sense if youre not trying to be ignorant. because when a champion has an extremely low pickrate combined with a low winrate multiple patches in a row, like garen right now, its a clear indication that he really is too weak.

usually when a champion has a high winrate and a high pickrate, its a clear sign that theyre overpowered. just like jinx at the moment.

when they buffed her ult damage by 50% she was already sitting at higher pick and winrates than garen right now.

i even gave you not only a statistical argument, but also how he ended up in the weakened state he is due to the item nerfs that affected him.

im not asking them to buff garen to op status. im just asking for some slight buffs to help him back to viability.

also, nickname him "urgod" or not. no one would argue, that the champion is in a ditch right now and largely underpowered. youre seriously basing your assessment on a champions strength how people nickname him?

MrStealYoGanksSep 22, 20161 votes

The major flaw in your argument is YOU believe Garen has a low win rate, when he doesn't. 50% is the win rate (give or take) that Riot aims for at all champs and when Garen is sitting around 49% there is no reason (especially when the win rate after 25 minutes of game time increases to 50-52% as previously stated).

You have no argument against the above statement. You probably didn't even look at his win rate based on game time either and just looked at his overall win rate. Learn to read an entire comment before responding, the fact you did a double reply and then tried to form an argument when your previous points were already disproved (but continued to state the same) shows you don't know what you're talking about.

No one would argue Urgot is not in a ditch right now? People argue that all the time when he does get brought up due to his insanely low pick rate, Riot has even commented that they aren't sure what they need to do with him to make him a more viable pick. You based your statement of "low pick rate, high win rate" off ONE champion so don't even talk about being ignorant. Nothing you've stated once again proves Garen should be buffed, especially when he sits at less than 2% of where he should be.

You've also proved in this thread that you don't understand what a binary champion is, if that doesn't prove your lack of understanding surrounding League and champions I don't know what does.

Either way Riot isn't going to do anything to Garen until his win rate is significantly lower than it currently is. When his win rate picks up at the 25 minute mark and places him at the golden 50%, Riot doesn't see the need for it. Keep crying because Garen is going to stay the same for quite some time. The only way Riot is going to do something is if multiple juggernauts see a decline in win rates and then it'll be an item buff and not champion specific.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If anyone needs a buff (probably a rework) it's Nunu who is sitting at 40% and continues to drop.

and nunu is getting buffs.

that shouldnt keep them from buffing garen or nasus. i can only repeat that it is not going to take them a lot of work or going to be a complicated matter, since they only need some slight number tune ups to things like base movement speed and health/lvl scaling.

its not a high efford case like it would be to balance azir, where they need to change entire mechanics in his kit and then balance around that. they dont need kit changes as large as nunu is getting them right now with a new mechanic attached.

their kits are fine and not volatile when it comes to balancing them. all they need is something like increased auto attack range for nasus, and slight scaling buffs for garen, and its probably going to be enough.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Because they are both binary as all get out and cannot be allowed to be too strong without being completely oppressive.

and no. theyre not binary. theyre not even as binary as most marksmen.

a binary champion is either dominating entire games when fed, or entirely useless for the entire game. and while i can see that sometimes happening for nasus, its definitely not a case for garen.

PermabannedGarenSep 21, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-09-21T17:23:43.747+0000)

and no. theyre not binary. theyre not even as binary as most marksmen.

a binary champion is either dominating entire games when fed, or entirely useless for the entire game. and while i can see that sometimes happening for nasus, its definitely not a case for garen.

First of all, that isn't being binary, that's being feast or famine.

Second of all, Garen is incredibly feast or famine. If he gets ahead he is incredibly oppressive since the Villain mechanic crushes any small lead the enemy team tries to take to get back into the game, and if he's behind he's a useless wall of health that can't actually get close enough to carries to benefit from the Villain mechanic.

Garen has one of the weakest kits in the entire game, and RiotRepertoire's rework did nothing to fix that.

SkiasSep 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-09-21T17:23:43.747+0000)

and no. theyre not binary. theyre not even as binary as most marksmen.

a binary champion is either dominating entire games when fed, or entirely useless for the entire game. and while i can see that sometimes happening for nasus, its definitely not a case for garen.

You're trying to tell me Nasus and Garen have dynamic kits with lots of interaction? What the...?

Only Play DariusSep 22, 20161 votes

"Binary as hell" Meanwhile KogMaw presses W and right clicks to melt everything in a cone in front of him,

SkiasSep 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2016-09-22T02:45:04.918+0000)

"Binary as hell" Meanwhile presses W and right clicks to melt everything in a cone in front of him,

Never said Kog wasn't. Well he got un-reworked, so there it is.

TyrekGoldenspearSep 21, 20166 votes

Riot went a whole step beyond item buffs for us Juggy mains dear Critmaster.

A compensation buff by giving us a champion that can override all our problems.

Ivern.

An ability that lets you completely ignore kiting.

Juggernauts, you may dance with joy.

https://media.giphy.com/media/uR6julmSW90mk/giphy.gif

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Riot went a whole step beyond item buffs for us Juggy mains dear Critmaster.

A compensation buff by giving us a champion that can override all our problems.

Ivern.

An ability that lets you completely ignore kiting.

Juggernauts, you may dance with joy.

https://media.giphy.com/media/uR6julmSW90mk/giphy.gif

ok, yea. thats kindof nice. but you cant rely on having him on your team every single game.

and while he seems exceptionally well equipped to support juggernauts, he doesnt really solve the issue of not being effective enough when youre in range, or getting shit on in lane by other carries who outscale you.

morris1Sep 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-09-21T17:40:40.156+0000)

but you cant rely on having him on your team ~~every single game.~~

FTFY

Only Play DariusSep 22, 20161 votes

A champion I will likely never play, but hope to god my teammates will

yoshi2790Sep 21, 20162 votes

[deleted]

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Nasus is already lategame king.

actually nasus midgame when he has 400 stacks at 25 minutes is where he shines, when hes strong.

his lategame is actually really shit and always has been. his hyperscaling kicks in somewhere around 50 minutes, but he drops off before. my guess is mostly due to the fact that he doesnt really have armor penetration itemization available to fight full build fighters and tanks, and adc still outscale him in damage.

at some point he starts to outscale again. but games usually dont last that long. he needs like 1000 stacks to outpace other carries by lategame.

yoshi2790Sep 21, 20163 votes

400 stacks at 25 miunutes, make it 500 if you're good at him.

But the thing is, if the enemy doesn't focus nasus he wil DESTROY someone. If he does get focused the enemy midlaner can kill the enemy adc. OR You splitpush. No one can splitpush like nasus except Tryndamere maybe.

He is really balanced and pretty strong at low elo.

At high plat/diamond he is a bit normal but that's because they can kite really good, and know how to deal with splitpush and can teamfight properly. He's a low elo champion. That's all i can really say.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

400 stacks at 25 miunutes, make it 500 if you're good at him.

But the thing is, if the enemy doesn't focus nasus he wil DESTROY someone. If he does get focused the enemy midlaner can kill the enemy adc. OR You splitpush. No one can splitpush like nasus except Tryndamere maybe.

He is really balanced and pretty strong at low elo.

At high plat/diamond he is a bit normal but that's because they can kite really good, and know how to deal with splitpush and can teamfight properly. He's a low elo champion. That's all i can really say.

if he does get focused, he goes down in seconds without much resources expended. just needs to be a mage with rylais kiting him around and an adc bursting him with auto attacks.

http://champion.gg/champion/Nasus

objectively hes not balanced. hes pretty weak right now.

and i hate this attitude "this champion is for low elo". this game isnt balanced for lower ratings. and he isnt even great there.

youll always find one or two champions who are op in bronze and silver. thats just the nature of that rating. if he were kicked into 55% winrate in silver to be decent in diamond, so be it.

riot usually only takes lower ratings into account when champions get really excessively strong there. i dont think that would be true for either garen or nasus in their current state.

yoshi2790Sep 21, 20163 votes

First off all, all late game champions are stronger in low ELO, if they are pretty 'easy' to play. Second, some champions ae better in high elo, like azir and vayne. They have more mechanical skill and overall skill. That's not atitude that's the truth.

Furthermore, If he get's focused he won't die within seconds. He buys trinity then goes FULL TANK. A TANK won't be killed in SECONDS, I mean he will, but a teamfight only lasts some seconds though. It's the task of a tank.

He's not strong now but balanced. Those are different things.

Last but not least, HE IS STRONG IN LOW ELO. They don't know how to deal with splitpush.

You might say, but his winrate is -- SHUS.

His winrate is only so 'low' because a lot of players play him a few times, because he is considered annoying, easy and OP. Most get oblirated in laning or Don't farm well. BUT if you can survive laning, like most can't, you will most likely win.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

First off all, all late game champions are stronger in low ELO, if they are pretty 'easy' to play. Second, some champions ae better in high elo, like azir and vayne. They have more mechanical skill and overall skill. That's not atitude that's the truth.

Furthermore, If he get's focused he won't die within seconds. He buys trinity then goes FULL TANK. A TANK won't be killed in SECONDS, I mean he will, but a teamfight only lasts some seconds though. It's the task of a tank.

He's not strong now but balanced. Those are different things.

Last but not least, HE IS STRONG IN LOW ELO. They don't know how to deal with splitpush.

You might say, but his winrate is -- SHUS.

His winrate is only so 'low' because a lot of players play him a few times, because he is considered annoying, easy and OP. Most get oblirated in laning or Don't farm well. BUT if you can survive laning, like most can't, you will most likely win.

even if this all were true. i still dont think lower ratings matter.

people playing there are still learning. its up to them how to figure out how to deal with a nasus than it is up to riot to balance around them. if something doesnt get rework skarner level excessive in bronze and silver they shouldnt take it into account.

games are inherently unbalanced in those ratings tdue to people just making one mistake after another.

EndlessSorcererSep 21, 20163 votes

Nasus was a mid-game monster who started falling off in the late-game.

Now, he is just weak in comparison to pretty much every other Juggernaut.

paperbIadeSep 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nasus was a mid-game monster who started falling off in the late-game.

Now, he is just weak in comparison to pretty much every other Juggernaut.

He is shit tier right now. in needs of huge buffs

Gnart Even CloseSep 21, 20162 votes

Please buff Juggernauts, that always works soooooooo well

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnart Even Close,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-09-21T21:37:04.218+0000)

Please buff Juggernauts, that always works soooooooo well

yes, it did. more of them are viable now than before the rework.

Gnart Even CloseSep 22, 20161 votes

I mean, I haven't seen Juggernauts in competitive play in a while (that one Morde jg being an exception), and only Darius is considered to be all that good rn

they only really seem to be good when they are overtuned as hell, which is not healthy gameplay

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnart Even Close,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=000e00000001,timestamp=2016-09-22T12:50:33.841+0000) they only really seem to be good when they are overtuned as hell, which is not healthy gameplay

garen was decent in plat and diamond for almost a year, without being overtuned. the indirect changes of the mages update, and nerf chains to jugg items hit him hard.

pro play is an entirely different problem, and to be honest i do not want to see him every played in tournaments. because champions played there usually receive nerfs just so pros dont pick the same champions every game and the games dont get boring to watch.

nasus doesnt need to be overtuned to be good into diamond either.

Gnart Even CloseSep 22, 20161 votes

Garen is supposed to be a FOO champion (First Order Optimal). From a game design standpoint, Garen exists primarily as a tool to teach people to play the game due to his simplicity. He is not supposed to be good in high elo, as that is not his function. Warwick serves a similar function for jungle, and Annie in a way for mid lane. If Garen is good in high elo, then he is going to be way too strong for the people he's designed for. I can imagine you're a Garen main and want him to be good in high elo, but he can function. The thing is he takes more skill and has less rewards than other champions at that elo. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But I don't think Garen is all that bad right now. I have a friend who recently got to Plat playing almost entirely Garen. Even now on Champion.gg, he is at 48.81% winrate. He is perfectly fine.

Darius is just oppressive as hell in lane, and is more than fine in Solo Q right now. Skarner is somewhat of a sleeper pick right now, and Morde is just poorly designed and should be kept weak until his problems are addressed, much in the same way as what happened with Yorick, Poppy, Urgot, etc.

Nasus is fine now as is. He's sitting at 48.34% winrate with ~4% playrate. That is perfectly fine for a champion that does require a decent amount of game knowledge and laning phase skill to make work. All the data seems to say that Juggernauts are fine right now. Not super strong, but not weak enough to deserve buffs. They are in a balanced state right now. Just because some champions are ridiculously overpowered does not mean they should all be.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnart Even Close,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=000e0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-22T14:48:39.358+0000)

Garen is supposed to be a FOO champion (First Order Optimal). From a game design standpoint, Garen exists primarily as a tool to teach people to play the game due to his simplicity. He is not supposed to be good in high elo, as that is not his function. Warwick serves a similar function for jungle, and Annie in a way for mid lane. If Garen is good in high elo, then he is going to be way too strong for the people he's designed for. I can imagine you're a Garen main and want him to be good in high elo, but he can function. The thing is he takes more skill and has less rewards than other champions at that elo. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But I don't think Garen is all that bad right now. I have a friend who recently got to Plat playing almost entirely Garen. Even now on Champion.gg, he is at 48.81% winrate. He is perfectly fine.

no. to everything in this paragraph.

just becuse garen has an accessable kit doenst mean he shouldnt be decent in higher divisions. lots of champions have a simplistic kit and are competitive. thats not an argument. thats not even a thing. there arent any champions in this game who have been made for the sole purpose of being strong in low divisions.

the goal is still to make him viable at all levels of play. having an accessable kit and being competitive arent contradictions. otherwise we wouldnt see champions like Annie being competitive, who has an incredibly low skill floor. she is pobably the easiest mage in the game to pick up and understand. but is still competitive up to master and challenger.

garen peaks out at 52% win rate for his mains. meaning even if you understand the champion well and play him for a long time, youre not going to do well with him. nasus isnt fine either.

top lane right now is still all about carries. Irelia Jax Fiora Riven

both nasus, and garen are beaten early while being outscaled lategame by these champions. so yes, they need some buffs to get in line with them.

im not asking to buff the shit out of them. just give them a nudge to be able to compete again.

Gnart Even CloseSep 22, 20161 votes

Ok, apparently I didn't make it clear enough that Garen is a FOO champion. THIS IS NECCESSARY FOR THE GAME!

Garen has a sum total of one crowd control effect, which is only a silence. He has a speed buff and no other mobility. He does damage, and can take damage. What does Annie have? Reliable AoE hard CC.

Garen is not reliable. Annie is. Because Garen is the easiest champion to play in the game (I don't think this can really be argued, but if you want to, you at least have to admit he's one of the easiest), he can't also be a very strong competitive pick. He would be way too strong to make anyone else worth playing. Imagine if I could just play Garen and get into high gold with it, when I would get Silver on a different champion. He also doesn't have many options. He's very predictable, and is easily kited. Good players will crush Garen because his weaknesses are designed to be easily exploited by experienced players.

Not all champions need insane winrates for their mains. Last I checked, Gnar's winrate for his mains is around 53%. Gnar also has, get this, AoE hard CC. It's kind of crazy how that works.

Let's look at the more competitive Darius. He has a heal that scales with max health, AoE damage, a strong slow, a displacement effect, and has his dunking reset. He also has a stronger laning phase than Garen. Look at that, tons of AoE damage, in combat healing, and some CC. He has his ultimate reset. He is actually rewarded if his team can set him up.

Top lane meta is a carry meta. There was a tank meta. I didn't see you complaining that Riven and Fiora weren't super good at the time. Now if you want to just stop this whole pointless rant about how you lose games because your mains aren't OP, that would be great. I've complained about Gnar being weak when he was under the radar, I'll admit it. But as you'll notice, Gnar actually got a couple tiny buffs. He has consistently been a good pick in competitive play due to his laning phase and teamfighting. And when he was too strong, he got nerfed. That's the way it works. Garen has an almost 49% winrate. Gnar had barely a 47% winrate, and he got tiny buffs (+3 AD, + 5 Hyper damage were two of the buffs with a considerable gap between them).

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnart Even Close,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=000e000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-22T16:14:55.630+0000)

Ok, apparently I didn't make it clear enough that Garen is a FOO champion. THIS IS NECCESSARY FOR THE GAME!

Garen is the easiest champion to play in the game (I don't think this can really be argued, but if you want to, you at least have to admit he's one of the easiest)

i very much want to agrue that. he is mechanically easy, but not more so than champions like pantheon, annie, irelia, or jax.

ive played all these champions and theyre incredibly easy to pick up. and even though garen has a low skill floor, his skillcap is still higher than what most people think.

you still dotn seem to realize that a champion being accessable to new players isnt a contradiction to being competitive.

look at Volibear

his kit isnt any more complicated than garens. he has similar strength and weaknesses as him. yet he has been a great competitive pick for a major part of this season until his nerfs.

there is no reason garen shouldnt be able to at least be decent into diamond with the kit he has right now. im saying that because he was already there.

after the juggernaut rework up until the mage rework, people new to garen had a below 50% winrate on him, and up to 55% winrate on experienced players. in plat and diamond.

that is an actual balanced state for any champion.

i know the claim that he cant be competitive in that skill range is plain wrong. because he already was. and all that changed since then is nerfs to his core items, and buffs to other carry top laners which hurt his general viability, since his weaker early game is not compensated by a strong enough lategame anymore.

if you think hes doing fine right now, then go ahead. pick him up and post your replays and experiences playing him in plat/diamond.

everyone who actually plays the champion in that skill range will tell you that he isnt just "not strong", but that the champion struggles to be viable at all right now.

Gnart Even CloseSep 22, 20161 votes

Volibear has a flip and a slow. That's a considerable amount of CC. He can also build completely pure tank, unlike Garen who usually gets at least a Black Cleaver. Even then, Volibear should not really be a strong jungle pick in higher tier play. Anybody can be competitive if overtuned (whether it be because of their numbers, items, masteries, etc). Juggernauts were stronger in the tank meta, when sustain and Grasp of the Undying were overpowered. Since then, most tanks are worse off. It stands to reason that a tanky character like Garen would suffer the same fate. Also note, the meta does NOT favor Garen right now. Champions are allowed to fall in and out of meta. That is a thing.

I'm going to point out that some other tanks that by all means should be stronger than Garen in higher levels of play are also not strong right now. Look at Cho'gath and Mundo. Mundo is weak right now, and is getting buffs BECAUSE HE NEEDS THEM. If you get a Rioter to respond on Garen's current state, I imagine you'll get a fairly similar response to mine. He's not supposed to be good in the highest tiers of play. For regular play, he is in a reasonable spot.

If you want to argue that Garen is on the weak side of balanced, then I would probably agree. He is not overpowered.

I can't post my replays in Diamond. I'm not a Diamond player. That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about though.

We'll take a look at Gnar right now. http://champion.gg/champion/Gnar

Look at his stats. They're not all that far off from Garen's. Gnar is a good champion right now. He's on the strong side even. Gnar has around a 53% winrate for experienced players. Garen has a 52.6% Gnar is designed to be a good competitive pick, and has tons of utility, damage, and tankiness. Many would even argue that Gnar should be nerfed more (I disagree with that but that's besides the point). 0.4% winrate for the most experienced players is not the difference between buff and nerf range. It's closer to 3%. Now if we can stop on this whole thing, that would be great. I'm done with this at this point, because this keeps going in circles and we're only going to get upset over it. My last point is that I think you're looking at this from a very biased point of view and it's clouding your reasoning on what should be a pretty clear topic otherwise. I even just talked to my high play / low diamond friend and he said that Garen is fine right now, if you want a higher ranked player's opinion.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnart Even Close,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=000e00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-22T17:07:47.290+0000) He's not supposed to be good in the highest tiers of play. For regular play, he is in a reasonable spot.

no matter how many times you write this, this is neither true nor would i ever accept it anywhere near a viable argument.

garens kit was being kept simple to be easily picked up by new players. never has a rioter stated that hes not supposed to be viable at higher levels of play. ever.

that is literally only your personal opinion.

otherwise please back it up your claim by showing me a direct quote.

and i can only repeat that he was already good at higher levels of play (excluding master/challenger), without being problematic with the same kit he has right now.

he was at 52% to 53% winrate at plat and upwards from the juggernaut rework up until the mage rework. if anything you said were true, and he wasnt supposed to be viable in higher divisions, he would have received direct nerfs at any time during that whole year. but he didnt.

what nerfed him was a random meta shift and indirect item/mastery changes not targeted at him. i only ask to compensate him and get him back to viability. nasus aswell. nothing more.

thats not difficult to accomplish.

Gnart Even CloseSep 23, 20161 votes

It's not just personal opinion. It's good game design. A lot of what I've been talking about is based off of learning about game design, and for League specifically I referenced this post: https://4thelolblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/22/balancing-around-skill-level-first-order-optimal-strategies-in-lol/

More generally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

It's not just my opinion.

First order optimal strategies are good game design.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4GhvvrBj-judgment-now-deals-25-reduced-damage-when-hitting-multiple-units?comment=00070000000100010000000000000000

"Another fun interpretation of where I think Garen is a good pick, though it isn't strategic within the game is when you know the opposing team relies on a certain player to get fed in order to win. This could potentially translate to competitive play, though I think it's more applicable and fun to pre-mades with friends. When you've got that one Diamond guy in your premade that you know is going to stomp a bunch of Silvers, pick Garen against him and show him who's boss in the late game."

Garen is supposed to be good at killing fed people. Fed people get peeled and know how to position in high elo. Unless you're going a full engage comp based around Garen (which isn't worth it, and you'd be better off with a different juggernaut who has more impact like Darius with his resets) then Garen really isn't going to work. It was strongly implied that Garen is not supposed to be good without an engage comp built specifically around getting him to the backline.

It's not being explicitly said here, but the point is that Garen is intended to be a noob friendly champ. He's not meant to be a strong competitive pick like your Rek'sai, Taliyah, Azir, etc. If you look at these champs that have kits designed for competitive play, you'll note that they have strong utility in addition to their tankiness or damage. Garen simply doesn't do that, and unlike Darius isn't worth getting a comp to help him engage. A Darius with support can get a pentakill. It's happenned in LCS. A Garen with support can get kited because he has no stick power. All that's needed is a bit of disengage, which any competitive team comp will have.

Literally anything can work in high elo, like the classic example of the AD Sion main. That doesn't mean everything should be a good pick in high elo. Champions with high utility and outplay potential will always be better in higher tier player than those without them. Garen has nothing but running at people and not dying right away. His damage isn't even all that high without the Villain bonus, which should be against the ADC if kills are being funneled into the ADC like they should be. The ADC will position safely, get peel, and just kill Garen.

The Yetii RiderSep 21, 20161 votes

Name 3 items that got their health nerfed this season.

KeìronSep 21, 20162 votes

item 3053 item 3742 item 3083 3 juggernaut items

The Yetii RiderSep 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

3 juggernaut items

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_Man%27s_Plate

The last time Dead Man's Plate lost health was in patch 5.24.

Warmog's lost 50 health. That's not worth buffing a champion over. If that were true, we would have seen compensation when Cinderhulk got changed.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-09-21T20:31:06.699+0000)

Name 3 items that got their health nerfed this season.

item 3742 item 3083 (though with a tradeoff) item 3053

other nerfed items

item 3071 first lost 100 health in preseason, to get more ad for whatever reason, then followed by ad nerfs later item 3065 lost 15 mr item 3068 much more expensive item 3102 though nieche lost 200 health item 3009 multiple nerfs in a row, and the only counter to item 3116 item 3022 permaslows.

and lets not forget veteran scars lost another 100 health for health stackers when they turned it into a flat 50

you add all that up and no matter how you build, youll have 300 to 400 health less than at the end of season 5. either way, its a crapton of nerfs to items that juggs like to buy. its no suprise that theyre not doing well.

plus, the resolve tree - the one that was supposedly aimed at tanks and juggernauts - is complete garbage. both Nasus and Garen mains currently go deep into cunning for stormraider and the damage amp masteries. ive also seen Darius mains go for cunning and stormraider. Illaoi curently goes into ferocity for dft. Mordekaiser goes into cunning/ferocity for stormraider.

the resolve tree is complete shit for the type of champion its made for. i hope season 7 we get an actual defensive tree.

The Yetii RiderSep 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2016-09-21T21:30:09.896+0000)

Dead Man's Plate lost 100 health in patch 5.24. You are simply incorrect that it lost health this season. Warmog's losing 50 health really isn't a big deal.

And as someone who plays actual defensive champions, instead of just building tanky enough to survive while I try to mindlessly kill other people, the resolve tree is fantastic. Strength of Ages gives you a huge amount of health, 15% tenacity and slow resistance is worth a keystone on all its own.

Resolve is good for tanks. DPS characters should be weaker, they're DPS characters.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2016-09-21T21:45:16.243+0000)

Dead Man's Plate lost 100 health in patch 5.24. You are simply incorrect that it lost health this season. Warmog's losing 50 health really isn't a big deal.

And as someone who plays actual defensive champions, instead of just building tanky enough to survive while I try to mindlessly kill other people, the resolve tree is fantastic. Strength of Ages gives you a huge amount of health, 15% tenacity and slow resistance is worth a keystone on all its own.

Resolve is good for tanks. DPS characters should be weaker, they're DPS characters.

5.24 was one of the last patches of season 5. youre kindof grasping at straws if you want to object to my argument.

fact is that its a fuckton of health nerfs to jugg items that happened in a row. riot kinda had the attitude. "oh if were shaving off 100 health here off this item it becomes less strong on graves or bruiser fiora who just buy this one item. people who stack 4k health wont notice 100 health more or less."

that shit only works if youre doing it once and not to almost every jugg/tank item, and their health mastery.

the resolve tree is garbage compared to season 5 defensive tree even for tanks. there is not a single % damage reduction mastery or flat resistances in there anymore except for bond of stone, which is a keystone for a handful of support tanks. nothing can compare to fervor of battle. the amount of item independent damage that mastery grants is obscene. and cunning and ferocity have a shitload of % damage amp masteries, while resolve mostly has some utility with some measily health regeneration sprinkled in.

juggernauts are supposed to scale well with defense, and at the start of the season riot officially stated that they want them to go into resolve. only that the tree is so terrible compared to the other two, that everyone who can somehow synergize with cunning or ferocity avoids it.

The Yetii RiderSep 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=0009000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-21T21:49:07.847+0000)

5.24 was one of the last patches of season 5. youre kindof grasping at straws if you want to object to my argument.

fact is that its a fuckton of health nerfs to jugg items that happened in a row. riot kinda had the attitude. "oh if were shaving off 100 health here off this item it becomes less strong on graves or bruiser fiora who just buy this one item. people who stack 4k health wont notice 100 health more or less."

that shit only works if youre doing it once and not to almost every jugg/tank item.

the resolve tree is garbage compared to season 5 defensive tree even for tanks. nothing can compare to fervor of battle. the amount of item independent damage that mastery grants is obscene. and cunning and ferocity have a shitload of % damage amp masteries, while resolve mostly has some utility with some measily health regeneration sprinkled in.

juggernauts are supposed to scale well with defense, and at the start of the season riot officially stated that they want them to go into resolve. only that the tree is so terrible compared to the other two, that everyone who can somehow synergize with cunning or ferocity avoids it.

200% Health Regeneration is measly to you? Because it decides whether I live or die all the time for me.

Garen is just a problematic design, which I flat-out told Repetoir about when he was reworking him. Garen isn't an AOE DPS juggernaut like Shyvana, Darius, or Mordekaiser. He's a tanky assassin. He goes in, silences one target to prevent their escape, and executes them with massive point and click true damage. He's never going to be in a state where it's healthy for him to be good at higher levels.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tm52eJ4z-we-nerf-garen-silence-because-the-silence-allow-him-to-unleash-his-full-combo?show=rundown

If you scroll down you will see where Repetoir admits on his own that Garen does the usual tanky theme of a juggernaut "with some assassin-like tendencies". If you wish to know Riot's stance on tanky assassins, look up any thread about Diana ever.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEzGhRmv,comment-id=00090001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-21T22:03:31.316+0000)

200% Health Regeneration is measly to you? Because it decides whether I live or die all the time for me.

200% BASE health regen under a 25% health threshold. this mastery doesnt increase your total health regen. what it does is 95% of the time give you a item 1006

Garen is just a problematic design, which I flat-out told Repetoir about when he was reworking him. Garen isn't an AOE DPS juggernaut like Shyvana, Darius, or Mordekaiser. He's a tanky assassin. He goes in, silences one target to prevent their escape, and executes them with massive point and click true damage. He's never going to be in a state where it's healthy for him to be good at higher levels.

well, then jokes on you, because he already was for half the season until the mage update.

pelase stop with this "tanky assassin" bullshit. the enemy is silenced for half the duration of his spin at best. and the champion is focused around sustained damage with his spin. he doesnt burst like an assassin.

anything is an "assassin" to an ad carry. because those fucks are too stupid to buy a single defensive item, and expect to magically survive fights just by pouring all their gold into damage. which riot has been catering to with the marksmen update when they put all these defensive passives on their strongest offensive items.

and riot repertoir isnt free of mistakes and misjudgement either. his original plans were for him to add a self slow to garens spin when he hits an enemy unit, not just champion with it.

he literally wanted to make garen kite himself, and only removed that mechanic as a result of negative feedback. it would have completely trashed him.