I think deaths dance is fine, but now it's apparent that fiora and riven ought to receive nerfs

SquashCannon··32 votes·1,739 views

Fiora definitely moreso than riven.

I think with fiora, all you have to do is make her early game more exploitable than it currently is. She is the only HYPERSCALE I can think of top lane that can actually abuse a lot of matchups starting at around levels 2-3.

Riven isn't too bad, but she needs to have either her Q or her E CDs nerfed slightly. She scales pretty dman well but also manages to bully the shit out of many melee lanes with her powerful "fake" all-ins (she goes in bursts your ass and then has the option to either GTFO or continue on to kill you). Riven, for a supposedly "hard" champion, has an astonishingly high play rate and win rate. The idea that riven is gated by her skill is no longer a valid argument, she's too powerful for any non-potato that plays her.

http://www.op.gg/champion/riven/statistics/top

Riven is the fifth most picked top lane champion with a 52% win rate.

http://www.op.gg/champion/fiora/statistics/top

While fiora's win rate usually hovers at around 51%, she is the MOST POPULAR TOP LANE CHAMPION. Her ability to stack fervor INCREDIBLY fast with her lunge and E auto reset means her lane phase is much better than people think and she can win all-ins against even some of the more traditionally oppressive early game champions. Her scaling is so damn good that you're essentially obliged to SMASH her in lane, I'm talking absolutely multi-kill put her in the goddamn dirt and cripple her ass, but that's hard with her current lane phase power.


I think the big thing to take home is that deaths dance is actually a good item for a lot of ADs to buy, and that's great, but just as how darius was tapped when courage made him a little too overbearing, it's time for riven to get her love-tap to tone down how good ddance is on her and fiora needs to get her early game's legs cut off.


EDIT: Just disregard the deaths dance mention, regardless, fiora and riven need nerfs.

DOUBLE EDIT: Because no one seems to have paid attention to the first edit in which I concede the point that deaths dance is fine, I'm done with this thread. If anyone wants to be a moron and continue to try and argue with me here about deaths dance go ahead, I'm not checking this thread anymore. Time for it to die now, because the main point of the thread is long lost.

53 Comments

UnboundHades29 votes

deaths dance is not balanced in its current state since any champ that builds it just doesn't die to burst anymore

SquashCannon5 votes

{quoted}

deaths dance is not balanced in its current state since any champ that builds it just doesn't die to burst anymore

Then it's working as intended.

If you want such an item to simply not exist, that's an entirely new topic.

UnboundHades9 votes

my point is burst mages cant do anything against any ad champ that runs hexdrinker and this item since they barely take any damage

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

It might be a little strong, but "can't do anything" is a definite exaggeration. I have been building it on some adcs for the burst protection, and it's mediocre at best. I can see how it would be oppressive on a top laner that was ahead, though. Point taken there.

Daddy Tie Me Up5 votes

That isnt exaggeration at all. Have you seen Draven with tabis PD and deaths dance? he ignores 50% of damage. Shits broken.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

If the ADC survives the rotation because of DD's the burst Mage can't do anything since they're on cooldowns. They can no longer do anything, if you will.

Joxcab16 votes

I think his point is that it's too good.

It was already mitigating burst previously just fine.

It's not supposed to completely nullify any chance of it working.

Automated Riven3 votes

I am actually with this. Idk if fiora needs a Nerf but deaths dance is way to fucking powerful.

Melledoneus5 votes

I ban Draven instead of Vayne nowadays. I, a person playing tanks, is banning DRAVEN over VAYNE.

That is how broken DD is on him right now.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Well to be fair, that's anecdotal evidence technically. But then again, DD is probably busted. Especially with PD.

Faustavian1 votes

It is imo, the only thing it actually needs is lower Lifesteal/AD Spellvamp, so they aren't just gonna heal through immediately what you did to them, and make the healing and Damage resistance different unique passives, so that item 3046 doesn't stack with it.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

deaths dance is not balanced in its current state since any champ that builds it just doesn't die to burst anymore

I think the damage reduction being on an item with lifesteal is sort of ridiculous. However, I do find that it's not that great on all ad champions, only a select few can abuse it.

Joxcab5 votes

Um, no. Both of the champions are perfectly balanced. Death's Dance is not. You have it completely backwards.

Ahristocats9 votes

i don't think fiora is balanced imo

it's been a long time that her early game that should be trash according to riot in the last patch notes fiora that buffed fiora, is not trash anymore and she can win lane against multiple people

the frustration of fiora having one of the highest hp regen in the game as a hyper carry while having sustain in lane is just an aberation

HalcyonDweller5 votes

you're essentially obliged to SMASH her in lane

Did you mean to say 'obligated' instead?

Also I agree Fiora scales too well currently. Not sure as to whether it is due to the champion or due to items though.

SquashCannon1 votes

{quoted}

Did you mean to say 'obligated' instead?

Also I agree Fiora scales too well currently. Not sure as to whether it is due to the champion or due to items though.

those two words are synonyms, so I think I'll leave it at "obliged"

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Actually, oblige is a verb, obligated is a noun.

I stand corrected on the above statement. They are both verbs.

However when you compare the two, it becomes clear which should be used in that type of sentence.

"You are obliged," vs, "You are obligated" in this context obligated just works better.

It's one of those weird things about the English language.

SquashCannon1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, oblige is a verb, obligated is a noun.

I stand corrected on the above statement. They are both verbs.

However when you compare the two, it becomes clear which should be used in that type of sentence.

"You are obliged," vs, "You are obligated" in this context obligated just works better.

It's one of those weird things about the English language.

According to whom, you?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

These people say it much better than I could:

As a transitive verb, one which requires an object, oblige can mean to restrict by external force or circumstances. To be obliged is to be in someone’s debt because of a favor or service. As an intransitive verb, one which does not require an object, oblige means to take action as a favor, or without reward.
A person who obliges is an obliger, though the noun form is hardly ever used.
Obligate carries a slightly different meaning, which is to force someone (or an organization) to do something because the law or morality requires it.
Over the last hundred years, obliged has fallen in use while obligated has risen very slightly, though obliged is still more common.

Source here: http://grammarist.com/usage/obliged-vs-obligated/

TEA Nietzsche 4 votes

Riven, for a supposedly "hard" champion, has an astonishingly high play rate and win rate. The idea that riven is gated by her skill is no longer a valid argument, she's too powerful for any non-potato that plays her.

http://www.op.gg/champion/riven/statistics/top

Riven is the fifth most picked top lane champion with a 52% win rate.

You made a mistake: you assumed that high playrate equals low average games played - which is generally a reasonable assumption, but there are exceptions and Riven is one of the most notable.

If you want to know what winrate new Riven players have take a look at this.

Riven beginners have a 45% winrate, the most experienced ones 54%, which is overall rather moderate.

Other than that: I think DD is clearly overtuned. When Draven buys that item something is wrong - and let's remember that it was maybe slightly undertuned before getting 5 AD in addition to it's passive getting doubled in effectiveness.

Sidenote: does Fiora even rely on DD? Imo she is very strong even without it..

Elwe The Jungler4 votes

Actually, no. Death's dance is clearly overpowered just by looking at it numbers. If you don't agree, play against any good Draven using it.

Troll for Trump3 votes

No, Riven is definitely still gated by skill, less so now because of the changes, but it's still very much there.

Needs her "potential" lowered.

SquashCannon1 votes

{quoted}

No, Riven is definitely still gated by skill, less so now because of the changes, but it's still very much there.

Needs her "potential" lowered.

Yes, she needs her max potential lowered, she has a very light case of azir syndrome, but she has it no less.

While I would like for her total damage to be nerfed slightly, I would settle for an E cd nerf so that if she goes in, she's more forced to all in than being able to go in and out with E spamming at the beginning and end.

Arcus Diabolus3 votes

I'd say Riven is on the strong side, yes, but she is not in need of any kind of direct nerfs yet. Indirect nerfs maybe, like messing with items she likes to build but certainly not any direct nerfs to her personally.

Death's dance would certainly be a good place to look.

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7YjygVn,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-06-03T12:39:38.011+0000)

I'd say Riven is on the strong side, yes, but she is not in need of any kind of direct nerfs yet. Indirect nerfs maybe, like messing with items she likes to build but certainly not any direct nerfs to her personally.

Death's dance would certainly be a good place to look.

Darius was nerfed when he was on the "Strong side"

And it was a love tap, I see no reason why she shouldnt get a love tap because she is statistically killing it.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Darius was nerfed when he was on the "Strong side"

And it was a love tap, I see no reason why she shouldnt get a love tap because she is statistically killing it.

Darius was nerfed when he was sporting a fucking 56% winrate in DIAMOND.

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7YjygVn,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2017-06-04T00:07:12.584+0000)

Darius was nerfed when he was sporting a fucking 56% winrate in DIAMOND.

That was an anomaly held for a couple days, and the sample size being only diamond and nothing above nor below makes it too small.

His overall win rate was around 52.5% at the time.

Go twist statistics elsewhere.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

That was an anomaly held for a couple days, and the sample size being only diamond and nothing above nor below makes it too small.

His overall win rate was around 52.5% at the time.

Go twist statistics elsewhere.

Diamond is basically the ideal testing grounds though... a juggernaut who is easily susceptible to kiting tactics should not be doing well in high elo.

EcchiOtakuTM3 votes

Death Dance needs a nerf, maybe 5% for right now, 5% more if it's still too strong(damage reduction)

They overbuffed it.

JustARivenMain2 votes

I've been waiting for peeps to ask for nerfs for Riv after first seeing the Death's Dance buffs on the PBE, it disallows for any burst unless there's CC tied to it, or else it allows Riven/Fiora/Graves,etc to just power thru it for the few seconds it bleed, then heal it back if you didn't finish them off in 3 seconds or stun them and hit them more.

Khadaver2 votes

Draven

Saianna2 votes

Fiora nerfs? Riven nerfs?

Maybe in 20200...

######(Yeah, 20200.)

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Tbh I think it's both the item and Fiora (Riven is fine) are pretty overtuned right now.

Have you versed a Draven using DD? Shit is cancer.

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

So Riven is OP all of a sudden. lol

SquashCannon1 votes

{quoted}

So Riven is OP all of a sudden. lol

Suddenly? She has always had azir syndrome.

She's a little overpowered but it's masked by potatos that play her.

AmazoX2 votes

Draven*

Troll for Trump1 votes

Draven's counters got nerfed, so:

  1. Nerf Draven
  2. Buff his counters (Luc/Cait)
  3. Buff some random champ that nobody asked for
SquashCannon1 votes

{quoted}

Draven's counters got nerfed, so:

  1. Nerf Draven
  2. Buff his counters (Luc/Cait)
  3. Buff some random champ that nobody asked for

Maybe they can try nerfing his E mana cost, it'll make him think more about using it for all ins or retreats. idk, they could just rollback on some of his buffs.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Option 2 is pretty dumb to be honest, Option 3 is ??

option 1, seemsgood.

Nomad Sol1 votes

Yasuo

hello, literally king of the level 2 cheese

zaire906 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dora Bora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7YjygVn,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-06-03T02:29:36.647+0000)

Yasuo

hello, literally king of the level 2 cheese

Talon ?

Melledoneus1 votes

Katarina ?

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Aatrox ?

For real doe, aatrox's level 2 is incredibly powerful.

zaire901 votes

{quoted}

Katarina ?

shes more of a lv3

SquashCannon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dora Bora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7YjygVn,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-06-03T02:29:36.647+0000)

Yasuo

hello, literally king of the level 2 cheese

hes not the king of any cheese. I'd like to see you try to lvl 2 cheese an equally leveled darius who isn't a moron. You'll be five stacked and sent running.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

That's a weird portrait of Talon

Elkington VI1 votes

It's really not. Defense on lifesteal items is one of the dumbest things Riot has done to itemization since season 3-4. Nearly all the physical damage carries in this game would be much easier to deal with if they didn't get shields and %damage reduction for building their core offensive items. Also, because of these dumb changes, lifesteal HAS to be expensive and thus inaccessible to aa-oriented bruisers, the ones that actually need to build defense, but don't need much damage (if any). Botrk is the only option they have right now, but ADCs continuously get the item nerfed (because Riot refuses to remove all the attack speed from it).

soulnight1151 votes

The problem though is that it's not just fiora and riven. Draven has gotten out of control in the bot lane with it and it's not like Graves needed more survivability in his build. Locking down and bursting them should be the best option when dealing with these champions yet death's dance can really nullify a lot of burst damage, especially when combined with a hexdrinker.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

Fiora is a splitpushing duelist. She's likes to be solo in a lane.

Most of these games are in solo queue.

In other words, Fiora has a good winrate because she is not team reliant on doing well. Only the shittiest of teams will manage to lose when Fiora is bringing 2-3 of them top. She's like the opposite of Shen.

That being said, it's funny how you think Fiora is the one scaling too well, when Riven has a better winrate by super lategame.

Why?

Because by 40 minutes, people are still roaming around doing random shit. Death timers aren't super long yet.

By 50, they're long enough that people know they need to group. And thus Fiora's winrate falls off.

And personally, I do not like DD as an item on Riven because 1) Riven should be picking up Youmuu's so she can have that teamfight burst, and 2) DD is a tank killer item for Riven (early sustain + CDR), while the active is more suited for facing burst. Against squishies with high burst, you would almost always rather go Youmuu's over Death's Dance

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