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I hope a support update comes after the fighter update

RedCyclone··57 votes·4,309 views

We see people complaining about the stale meta in many other lanes, and now attention is being driven to it So just how stale is support?

Well for starters, Thresh has dominated the pick percentage ever since his conception 2 damn years ago for the last 2 years we have been stuck in the "tanky support only" where tanky champions start to flood the support role even though it isn't their intended role, much like APC's did, though I will say that we have been seeing more high based utility supports being played currently like Janna and Nami but being honest both these champions have always been decent picks, and peel is helpful

Support champions who are gated by needing AP (Sona/Soraka/Karma) have a really shitty selection of 50AP or less items what cost 2k+ to stave their hilariously low utility ratios, if you want a support who deals damage and has utility, just pick Annie/Brand/Velkoz/Morgana and not be gated by the requirement of needing 250+ap to do anything, insultingly almost all these AP support items have their major active compenent being "Attach yourself to an allied champion and make them deal more damage" what is a nice concept and all, but please dont apply it to the most stat hungry role (these should be mana/regen/cdr items)

Sightstone in general needs to be updated, the items stats are uncalled for 2/3rds of the support cast, it delays fun interation and is the only damn reason why people in other roles don't bother with warding (because the support should do it all, right?)

Can we please change this meta where you are expected to be a innately tanky champion and the vision bitch into something what actually gets the half of the support cast who never see the light of day, to finally be involved 2 year's of the same thing is a long time of morbidity...please?

94 Comments

VDc0zCqe0w18 votes

Support role is INSANELY stale, and has been so for 2 years, yet people fail to realize this.

They tell you "but Shen, Nautilus, Trundle, Alistar, now are all viable as supports and they weren't before!", yes and they are all DAMN TANKY SUPPORTS

I don't like tanks, i like poke/sustain/utility supports, i don't give 2 damns about new tank picks flooding botlane, in fact i despise that because it makes Sona fucking unplayable because there's no point poking what can't be poked while it outscales you simply by existing.

I switched from support to ADC for this reason....tanks are insanely overbearing in botlane since S4, and it's getting old

and buff Zyra, seriously, does she have to reach 0.02% pickrate in order for her to get some kind of attention?

Sachabot5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7Y2MwrG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-04T00:49:04.853+0000)

and buff Zyra, seriously, does she have to reach 0.02% pickrate in order for her to get some kind of attention?

Karma did. But yeah, you're right. I'm a tanky support player, always have been, but it's kinda boring knowing what my opposite number is gonna be and do before they even pick. I want better support itemization, and a few buffs to the weaker supports.

BastionKross12 votes

Riot tried that at the end of season 3, we got something called "utility scaling" which was so dreadful that Riot has since removed it from almost every support they put it on. On paper, it was a good idea: Support champs have their utility scale. Stuns become longer, slows become more powerful, movement speed boosts have a longer duration, heals get stronger, etc.

The problem came from two issues:

  1. Utility scaled with AP, which is something support itemization even today can have a lot of trouble with. Getting 200 AP on a support can be a challenge sometimes.

  2. Riot was afraid to let utility be powerful. The scaling started out very weak and wasn't able to scale up to anything impressive even with massive amounts of AP. We imagined Lulu turning allies into the Flash, Zilean basically slowing people into a snare for an ungodly duration, Taric auras giving entire teams thousands of gold worth of stats, etc. Instead, what we got was underwhelming and not much more powerful utility than before the scaling was introduced.

"Hey guys, you know how you have a 40% slow on your support champ? Well now with utility scaling you can have a 45% slow! If you build 250 AP. And the slow starts off at 15% and only increases with AP. And you'll most likely only reach this AP total right before the game ends. Doesn't that sound like a buff to you?" - Riot Games circa Post-Season 3, Pre-Season 4.

Mandang02 votes

I think the problem with utility ratios is far more general than that. Traditional supports are a class meant to operate on low gold - this is why they're focused around buffs and peels that remain relevant because the person you cast them for is able to scale with items. For these champions to have fair powercurves, this also requires their spells to otherwise scale less than others' spells. This is why Riot was nerfing solo lane supports for a long time - because they don't want those champions to have the best of both worlds, and that's fair.

The issue becomes when Riot tries to achieve a support "fantasy" by pushing more gold into the role. Now this low-gold niche of traditional supports is gone, and you see champions who scale better with gold become more competitive options. Utility ratios were Riot's answer to this, but forcing supports to build AP to access these makes them build like a mage support, someone who will still use that AP better than the support unless the support has amazing ratios, which brings us back to the problem in the first paragraph.

There's any number of alternate solutions Riot could've pursued, but the core problem is that they tried to push gold onto a class that was intended to operate with low gold.

Erockandroll7 votes

One thing I would like to see is something that bolsters heals. Sustain support have practically fallen off the face of the rift.

But we can't put more AP on support items, otherwise, midlane will pick them up. And we can't buff their AP ratios without them going mid.

So it would feel like the best way to bolster Sustain support is to give them boosted heals, that arn't tied to AP. (Censor was a step in the right direction.)

That's the real problem I have with Support itemization. Most of these items give support as small but required utility. And don't scale with the utility they already have.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

One thing I would like to see is something that bolsters heals. Sustain support have practically fallen off the face of the rift.

But we can't put more AP on support items, otherwise, midlane will pick them up. And we can't buff their AP ratios without them going mid.

So it would feel like the best way to bolster Sustain support is to give them boosted heals, that arn't tied to AP. (Censor was a step in the right direction.)

That's the real problem I have with Support itemization. Most of these items give support as small but required utility. And don't scale with the utility they already have.

In what world is mid lane ever going to pick up Spellthief's Edge or Ardent Censer?

Dar Raksada2 votes

{quoted}

In what world is mid lane ever going to pick up Spellthief's Edge or Ardent Censer?

I've gone ccenser lux before on midlane.

Hellioning7 votes

To be fair, Janna is the highest win rate support and has one of the highest pick rates.

But yes, there is a definite bias towards tankier champions (and Morgana) in the support role. Soraka/Nami/Sona aren't bad, but there is a pretty big drop in playrate between Braum and them. I wonder if this is just player preference or them simply being more situational picks.

Feathermane4 votes

Tried some Nami games. If your carry isn't a very good Ezreal player who can dominate the lane, you don't do anything. When Nautilus has the same kind of cc, outdamages you by a factor of 6 and can tank an entire team, you say 'fuck it' and just pick Nautilus.

VDc0zCqe0w3 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, Janna is the highest win rate support and has one of the highest pick rates.

shouldn't surprise anyone since she counters every single tank while being as useful, if not more, as them mid-lategame and she's really the only one who can make any use of utility scaling since she just buys a Mejai and gets 12 stacks easily

If Sona/Karma/Zyra were meta, Janna would win way less games

I just pick Janna nowdays...i mean what should i do when my opponents pick an overpowered BS tank every game? I can pick Nami, land every bubble, try to poke them, land good ults...and it still wouldn't matter since 1 hook/taunt fucks your game up. Might as well just pick Janna and just win the game.

check this thing http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

Top 10 playrate: 7, seven, S-E-V-E-N tanks out of 10, this is how ridiculous support role is atm

Hellioning1 votes

Yes, I know. It's where I got my statistics. And did not you notice that Soraka and Sona both have comparable winrates to most of those champions?

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I know. It's where I got my statistics. And did not you notice that Soraka and Sona both have comparable winrates to most of those champions?

i don't care much about winrates to be honest, i care about play rates and you got 80% of the chance of playing vs Janna or a tank in your games, and this is just stupid

Hellioning2 votes

Are you arguing that tanks are overpowered or that tanks are overpicked? Because your post seemed to me like you were complaining about tanks being overpowered.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

{quoted}

Are you arguing that tanks are overpowered or that tanks are overpicked? Because your post seemed to me like you were complaining about tanks being overpowered.

both of that, because if they are overpicked, then i can't use poke/sustain support (well i still can, but they got bad matchups against tanks)

it's the same problem Lee Sin was in S4: Lee Sin is in every game? Good luck trying to pick something that can't survive him early game

do you think people enjoy playing Janna? i don't think, i mean sure i do because i main her since S2, but i see people whining that they got to play Janna because it's easier to win games with her

but why is it so easy? Because she's OP vs tanks, and tanks are in every game This situation is 100% boring

manbearswine2 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, Janna is the highest win rate support and has one of the highest pick rates.

But yes, there is a definite bias towards tankier champions (and Morgana) in the support role. Soraka/Nami/Sona aren't bad, but there is a pretty big drop in playrate between Braum and them. I wonder if this is just player preference or them simply being more situational picks.

They aren't more situational,they are just flat out worse.

Tank support balance is off right now,and everything is about them,so the heavy peel/anti tank supports(lulu,janna,morgana) survive,annie has some use in competitve but I don't see her much in solo q anymore,mage supports(aside from annie) aren't good right now either(People are just trying to shove everyone but their main out of the support role,which is frankly idiotic),tank supports need some toning down,and thresh nerfs are way overdue.

Hellioning1 votes

Lulu is actually one of the worse support according to both winrate and pickrates; Sona, Nami, and Soraka are all better than her, statistically.

manbearswine2 votes

{quoted}

Lulu is actually one of the worse support according to both winrate and pickrates; Sona, Nami, and Soraka are all better than her, statistically.

Is just underrated at the moment,I don't really care for these numbers,they prove nothing on their own,they are there to imply,but I've played enough lulu not to care for them.

GinoSoldier4 votes

Supports need a Reverse Rylai's Crystal Scepter which buffs all their single/AoE MS buffs by X. They could also make a similar item for healing, or something that gives self-heal upon healing another Champion, or just something that increases your AP/HP/Armor/MR ratios on healing/shield skills. They also need to remove/rework some of their least used items (or impractical like Mikhaels Crucible) and reduce the CDR porn in Support itemization. !0% on most should be enough, we don't need 20% on half the items.

They could also use a Sightstone that is linked to Exhaust the same way Machete is linked to Smite, IF Sightstone remains at all, which i'm against. I think the entire vision war should be given over entirely to Trinkets.

Crowe Stalker2 votes

{quoted}

Supports need a Reverse Rylai's Crystal Scepter which buffs all their single/AoE MS buffs by X. They could also make a similar item for healing, or something that gives self-heal upon healing another Champion, or just something that increases your AP/HP/Armor/MR ratios on healing/shield skills. They also need to remove/rework some of their least used items (or impractical like Mikhaels Crucible) and reduce the CDR porn in Support itemization. !0% on most should be enough, we don't need 20% on half the items.

They tried this with item 3504 and failed but I think that was more Riot's fault for not giving it proper scaling.

Sohleks3 votes

Balance between non-tank supports and tank supports not named Janna (who is the counter to the meta supports in lane) is really off...

Tanky support champs passively outscale most non tank support champs in teamfights. They frequently have great kill pressure in lane and roams too. Tanks just fit the support role much much better the way we have learned to play the game these days. While this was always true to a certain extent its been especially stagnant like this basically all year.

Rallen3202 votes

i think someone pointed this out, but supports have (kinda) gotten 2 updates already, one with the "utility scaling", the other being Shurelya's attempt to help them out way back when. the utility scaling never really went any where, as for Shurelya's update, while it might not have much of an impact on the game any more, i think it proved that many people really have no idea how to balance.

Meeks0112 votes

Support is probably one of the least satisfying and least fun role. It's all spamming heals, landing a stun then waiting until your useful again, having to babysit the ADC, etc.

Here are how many champion are in each role, according to champion.gg: 26 supports 53 tops 42 junglers 18 ADCs 48 Mids

Support and ADC have less diversity dombined than all the other roles. Though fortunately out of the past 4 champions, 3 have been supports.

KatCraft2 votes

Adc hasn't been touched even longer and the role is kind of a mess right now. I want to see changes to IE PD and remove the crit RNG behind them and also the power that makes it impossible to buy anything else. Itemizing is pretty stale. The crit bullshit needs to be addressed if nothing else.

dannykun1 votes

champion viability in ADC is NEVER stale, the Meta shifts of everyone else dictates who is good and who is bad in adc. Are tanks weaker? grab high burst adc's like graves/lucian/corki/ezreal they'll wreck everyones face. Are assassins so plentiful you can't walk two steps out of lane without three ambushing you? pick an adc with great escape potential like Ezreal/caitlyn/tristana. Are games generally longer because of low push potential? pick a hyper carry like vayne/jinx/kog'maw.

And so on and so forth. ADC itemization is actually probably the most versatile of all itemization builds, it's the rest of the meta that determines which items have the highest kill potential for an adc so most of the time it's a moot point.

Compared to Support ADC is fine. When you literally only see 2 to three champs every game for support because there is absolutely no one better for that role, you know you have a huge issue. the Tanky meta and it's two major counters is a horrible position to be in. when you have to play support you should be able to be flexible with your picks to make better team comps but since tanky supports have just as much (if not more in so many cases) utility as a utility support you know something is wrong. The best example I can see is Sona vs braum/leona where they have more utility than the actual utility support, AND they both literally outscale the crap out of her. Usually when I play sona support I go "fuck it I'll grab luden's/lich/archangel's and one shot the adc. that way even if I have less impact on a teamfight than the leona or braum I did get that bitch down." (pardon my language) it points to really poor balancing when one champion can have more impact than another with a kit that does virtually the same thing.

KatCraft1 votes

Only 3 supports? Which of Alistair, Soraka, Braum, Janna, thresh, Leona, Nami, Annie, and Nautilus are not playable in your opinion. You mention Sona, but she is one of the weakest support champs, "arguably". I say arguably because I play her and I think even she isn't as bad as people say. If the enemy isn't playing a strong gank jungler like Lee sin she's a very good lane bully. If she's the worst support out of a dozen the role is in a good position.

I'm not talking about picks anyway, I'm talking about items, which you didn't provide a counter argument for. For almost every adc you go IE into PD into LW every game. Sometimes you can be greedy and choose Bloodthirster 3rd instead of LW. That's the extent of depth that goes into buying items. It's the most stale of any role.

And even if you don't agree with the above, you can't possibly argue that crit RNG is healthy design. It's extremely tilting to lose against another adc just because he got more crits than you did.

dannykun1 votes

soraka, alistar, nami, and Braum are rare picks for a reason. There's someone that can do what they can do but better. Nami is one that I personally love but realized very quickly that her kit is simply too lackluster. Everything it does can just be done much better by leona/thresh (these two are part of the current trio, the last spot is usually janna, though morg may appear in rare instances to counter the either of the two it's really just which of the two is fotm against tank meta). naut is one that I neglected to mention as I only see him rarely as a support because he's still picked as a jungler in my division.

As for items, IE was gutted in S3, it's not a end all be all item anymore. If your adc can capitalize better with attack speed, you rush BORK, Bloodthirster isn't what it used to be, but if you need the extra health (and heavy assassin meta's basically necessitate this kind of build) it's a good damage alternative. Any AD caster type benefits from blue build for poking down champs. It really comes down to how your ADC is doing it's job in the current game. synergy only goes so far when building a champ, and sometimes you need to bite the bullet and just build BORK to shred tanks or build IE to two-three shot squishies because that's how the game is going.

I will admit that Crit RNG is awful, though I think that ashe provides some great insight to how Crit could work. make it simply a reliable damage multiplier that can only be obtained through glass cannon items, and voila RNG removed, and damage gets equalized across the board. Though this is only a theory and could radically change the meta across the board in unintended ways. Biggest issue is that everything is balanced around the ADC and while itemization is fairly stale it's mostly because they have the least dynamic role. They only have one job, deal damage. How they accomplish it is mostly up to their kit and not really items.

Syvenon2 votes

Oh gosh. I just wish you could play season 1 and 2 support. You think you're the only one warding now? There used to be no sightstone and no limit on how many wards you personally could put on the map. e.g. 90% of your job was to just keep buying individual wards and putting them down. Like you would have to buy at least 5 every time you went b. Sometimes you would have multiple stacks of wards.

The only gold boost items had flat gold gain, pickpocket didn't exist, and the useful actives were on items like Shurelia's Reverie, which had no offensive stats. Also getting AP was waaay harder, because there was maybe one useful support item with AP on it (old WotA, though some people would still flame you for buying it...).

Truly this is something that they have been working on forever, and they've made a TON of progress in this field (you think champ picks aren't diverse now? Back in the day it was Soraka v. Sona every single goddamn match.). Personally, I would much rather have "non-support champions" taking on the support role than having it relegated to only 2 or 3.

RedCyclone2 votes

I did play during season 1 and 2 Yes, the support game is much better then it was a long ass time ago

but it really has not improved much since the start of season 3, a few notable things added since then were the gold generating items and trinkets but support still has to manage a -2 slot item disadvantage, are still expected to use 90% of the wards in the game, is dominated by one sub type of support

comparing it to times when they were much worse does not mean support is currently in a spot we should be grateful for, specially since every other lane gets like 3 successful items a season, while supports last successful item was Iron Solari

Only Play Darius2 votes

Yea right now it seems like supports are giving up so much for their utility, that people decide it's not worth it and just pick "Supports" so that they can keep their damage and waveclear without losing too much utility. The worst part is, it seems more and more like these guys end up doing better overall throughout the game.

Annie Nautilus Trundle Lux Velkoz Zyra Volibear Nidalee

True supports are in a pretty bad spot.

TotalJerk2 votes

Tanks basically have the cheapest builds in the game while simultaneously being the least item/feed dependent. Hence why so many supports are tanks. You couldn't even spend the kind of money assassins and ADCs have to spend on items if you wanted to.

The Loveless2 votes

Supports got lots of items over the last two seasons. It's adc and ad casters who are stale right now.

I do fine with classical supports. The run fast items are good.

only zhule3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7Y2MwrG,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2015-08-04T11:04:46.481+0000)

Supports got lots of items over the last two seasons. It's adc and ad casters who are stale right now.

I do fine with classical supports. The run fast items are good.

I think you are mistaking a staleness in the item choices for a staleness in the role itself. Your right supports have gotten a few cool new items while ADC's haven't really gotten anything for a while. But the roles are a different story, imagine if only 2 ADC's were viable for the last two seasons. Or better yet, imagine if they started putting out ADC's with either passive movement speed buffs, Kalista (imagine 3 characters like her) or passive on hit tricks like Vayne (again imagine if there were 3 more characters like her) or even more fun combine the two.

Mandang02 votes

I think a really big part of this is relic shield too. Normally when people set up the rock/paper/scissors of support it's all-in beats sustain, sustain beats poke, poke beats all-in. However, by giving the all-in gp10 (relic) a proc that provides sustain, it's helping all-in to beat their intended counter: poke. Just look at how popular poke supports are right now - not at all. They get beaten by the sustain/shield supports and they aren't strong enough to actually beat the all-in supports. That, along with lifesteal, makes it incredibly hard for poke supports to actually do their jobs, and is why we end up at Thresh/Leona/Morgana as the big 3 supports season in and season out.

But, I also agree - utility ratios were a joke & traditional supports still have some catching up to do to compete with mage supports in a meta where AP purchases are expected on support. This was the problem in S3, and I imagine it'll still be a problem if Thresh/Leona/Morgana are ever dislodged from atop the support class (for an appreciable amount of time).

Xela Syab2 votes

What supports need:

  1. More gp/5 starting or ending itemization - mana/ad/armor/mr
  2. Specialized trinkets for supports (when you buy a gp/5 iitem it unlocks special trinkets like moving wards, objectives all get lit up on map, gives vision on all enemies x amount from you, ghost trinket, unkillable pink wards)
  3. more utility items that build from gp/5. like targons + giant's belt that gives and active where you can drop a health pack or spellthief + recurve bow where you get gold stacks for harassing enemies and can spend an active to give allies gold.
ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

"Tanky supports Dominate"

Meanwhile Janna is never going to go away ever.

DJ Di01 votes

{quoted}

"Tanky supports Dominate"

Meanwhile Janna is never going to go away ever.

That's because of Leona/Thresh/Nautilus/Alistar. When tanky all in supports thrive, she thrives as well.

Switch the meta over to sustain/poke and you won't see her nearly as much.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

"Tanky supports Dominate"

Meanwhile Janna is never going to go away ever.

the only reason Janna is picked is because tanky supports are pretty much engage champions and what is Janna really good against?

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

{quoted}

"Tanky supports Dominate"

Meanwhile Janna is never going to go away ever.

neither Thresh is going to

what's your point?

and no sorry, Janna wasn't a thing in S3 and for half of S4, Thresh has been permapicked since his release

do you know why Janna wasn't that strong in S3? because you hadn't a tank support in every goddamn game

but, you know i shouldn't even complain, i main Janna since ever and i love getting free elo whenever i have to pick support, but still, it's a retarded situation that i'm forced to pick her

picks should be a choice, right now there is simply not a choice: you either pick overpowered tanks or you pick the anti-tanks (Janna-Morgana)

Stark60002 votes

I would like to remove sight stone, and make everyone have a 2 ward limit with 1 pink possible. There, now everyone has to ward every game.

Princess Emma2 votes

I want some damn stats on those sight stones other than health

item 2049 item 2045

Don't gotta give 100 AP or something on a Sight stone, but hell, even 30 or 40 AP wouldn't be bad.

Nekusen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Princess Emma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7Y2MwrG,comment-id=0020,timestamp=2015-08-04T21:37:37.220+0000)

I want some damn stats on those sight stones other than health

item 2049 item 2045

Don't gotta give 100 AP or something on a Sight stone, but hell, even 30 or 40 AP wouldn't be bad.

something like this?

** 1- SightStones** item 2049 Is rarely worth upgrading into item 2045 So i though of different upgrade choices like item 1039 's to make it more interesting and add variety.

**Violet **item 2049: 200 HP 5% CDR --- ---> Voiditem 2049: 300 HP 10% CDR

**Crimson **item 2049: 300 HP ------> Rubyitem 2049: 450 HP

**Cerulean **item 2049: 200 HP 25% mana regen ------> Skyitem 2049: 250 HP 200 mana 25% mana regen

**Jade **item 2049: 150 HP 10 AP ------> Forestitem 2049: 200 HP 50 AP

2- New Support Item:

  • Mysterious Trinket: 365 G

Generates 1 Gold every 10 seconds. Generates 1 Gold every time you cast a spell. (Killing a minion disables this for 10 secs) Generates 1 gold every time a nearby ally kills a minion. 25 HP 25% Mana regen

  • Orb of seasons: Mysterious Trinket + 500 G

Generates 1 Gold every 10 seconds. Generates 2 Gold every time you cast a spell. (Killing a minion disables this for 10 secs) Generates 2 gold every time a nearby ally kills a minion. 10 AP 50 HP 25% Mana regen

  • Mirror of Spirits: Orb of seasons + Ruby Crystal + Amplifying Tome + 500 G

Generates 1 Gold every 10 seconds. Generates 2 Gold every time you cast a spell. (Killing a minion disables this for 10 secs) Generates 2 gold every time a nearby ally kills a minion. 60 AP 300 HP 100'% Mana regen Unique – Mirror Portal: Teleports to target allied champion (4000 range) , 90 seconds cooldown.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Please, if It's anything like what they're doing to half the champs.

Sona we feel like Sona is in an unhealthy spot. So we've removed everything but her E and are now forcing her as a jungler! Oh but in compensation she can now ult minion waves or something.

Leona she's really balanced, so we're making her stun now stun for 5 seconds, and her ultimate is now global because sun!

Soraka we feel like Soraka is in a bad spot, so we're removing all of her abilities and replacing them with heals that instantly kill her when she heals an ally. We feel like this is a step in the right direction!

brian rad1 votes

Sona can deal tons of damage.....If you dominate lane and get ahead. Lol

RedCyclone2 votes

When she dominates, what does she buy

Im guessing...Nomicon...Lichbane...Ludens...Deathcap Instead of the intended items, like Zekes and Ardent

only zhule1 votes

The lovely joke with Sona, if you want to be useful you buy damage (after the 800 gold dump into a sight stone). Ardent is a freaking joke item, unless your team is made up of a ton of auto attackers, or your ADC is someone like Jinx/Lucian/ some designed to fire a dozen times in 3 seconds, it really doesn't do anything. 30 magic damage per auto sounds amazing until you notice that they are getting maybe 2 shots total with it.

Can we also address the fact that she has shit wave clear, her early heal is a HUGE waste of mana for what it does. I mean seriously 80 mana on a 10 second cooldown for a 30-40 point heal (yes i know you get the shield but even that's pretty small). And she's squishy as can be. i mean i can usually expect to take like 40-60% of my health just trying to hold a wave in place.

John JJ Schmidt1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7Y2MwrG,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T06:49:20.105+0000)

Ardent is a freaking joke item, unless your team is made up of a ton of auto attackers, or your ADC is someone like Jinx/Lucian/ some designed to fire a dozen times in 3 seconds, it really doesn't do anything. 30 magic damage per auto sounds amazing until you notice that they are getting maybe 2 shots total with it.

That's a pretty big exaggeration. 2 shots? In six seconds?

It also gives them 15% AS for that six seconds. The 10% CDR and a bit of AP are bonus.

I use it on Janna all the time. The buff can be kept up full time with 40% CDR (making Eye of the Storm a 6 second CD) so 100% of the time my carry can have 15% AS and the 30 magic damage and 5 of every 6 seconds, they can also have ~70 AD.

And for pushing objectives or team fights, Monsoon can give the whole team 5 seconds of 15% AS and 100 damage.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=John JJ Schmidt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m7Y2MwrG,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T14:26:00.001+0000)

That's a pretty big exaggeration. 2 shots? In six seconds?

It also gives them 15% AS for that six seconds. The 10% CDR and a bit of AP are bonus.

I use it on Janna all the time. The buff can be kept up full time with 40% CDR (making Eye of the Storm a 6 second CD) so 100% of the time my carry can have 15% AS and the 30 magic damage and 5 of every 6 seconds, they can also have ~70 AD.

And for pushing objectives or team fights, Monsoon can give the whole team 5 seconds of 15% AS and 100 damage.

Fine your right, lets be more realistic and say 4 auto's per 6 seconds, per ADC and 2-3 for non ADC's (this assumes a semi mobile target). 15% AS is actually pretty low (you can buy an item that gives that for less then 500 gold) and 30 magic damage is kind of a joke when you figure in resist, even with no items to really cut the damage basic resists probably knocks that down to about 20 or less damage per auto.

Now the real problem is that most champions aren't auto attack only focused, so while you might have given 3 allies an AS and damage buff, most of them will probably not get any real use out of it because they are slinging abilities which don't benefit from the buffs. So you have dropped 2200 gold and filled an item slot, with an item that gives very low AP; small amount of CR; a small movement speed bonus, and standard tier 3 mana regen. The upsides of the item are that it's cheaper then the other mana regen support items and that it gives that small boost. Down sides it's weakest of all of them, and it's bonuses really only shine on 1-2 characters. Keep in mind that while you probably want to keep eye of the storm up as much as possible most other supports don't want to throw out a heal or shield on to an ally that's pretty much already topped off just so they can activate an item's passive buff.

Wakamune1 votes

most other supports don't want to throw out a heal or shield on to an ally that's pretty much already topped off just so they can activate an item's passive buff.

Disagree. Even without ardent, the AP mid, for example, isn't going to benefit much from the AD bonus and the shield is likely to break before they even auto. At least with 40% cooldowns Janna can pick between offensive and defensive use with her shield.

And if the fight is obviously won or you are taking down a tower, why would you not heal/shield as a top off for damage buff? It's like saying Nidalee's AS boost has no purpose with her team. .

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

I really hate playing as Soraka and not knowing what the hell to build after my essentials because there's nothing helpful and I have no idea what I am. Am I a tank? Am I a healer? Am I doing damage? What the hell am I doing here? Why am I playing Soraka? There are items with utility passives, but what if I don't want those stats?

TotalJerk2 votes

Resistances, AP, and CDR is what you want. Don't focus on health or health regen because of how her W works, ever since the regen rework, it's based on percentages of your base regen, and Soraka's base regen is so god fucking awful that buying any just isn't worth it. Unfortunately the items she loves the most are rather expensive for a support (item 3157 item 3060)

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