Aren't lane bullies supposed to...y'know...fall off?

LyingOnLine·Apr 6, 2017·25 votes·2,305 views

As is, your payoff for surviving them and not feeding them a bunch is supposed to be outscaling them.

Yet it doesn't happen. Certainly not by the time most games are decided, and almost never by the time they're ending.

They just snowball all over, deny CS, take towers, and find kills all too easily, and because Riot refuses to let lategame champs have a goddamn chance, they scale into teamfights just fine.

You want a visualization? Go to any stats site and look up the highest pick/winrate champions in top or midlane. Look at games won by time. Check how many of them slope up versus slope down.

60 Comments

ArakadiaApr 6, 20179 votes

What LeeSin are Caitlyn you Darius talking Jayce about.

They always fall off. Like Lucian ... right?

GankedByWindowsApr 6, 20175 votes

Lee W/R before 25 (also not a laner but whatever): 55% 40+: 48%

Caits stats are fucked on champion.gg so I can't comment on her. However she does have a strong lategame from my experience, her weakness is her awful midgame before she spikes back up.

Darius: 55% before 25 to 51%

Jayce: 60-46%, depending on mid or top. They both fall down heavily, but the percents vary by about 2%

Lucian: Stats are also off, as it says at the time of writing his W/R across 400,000 games is 0% before 25 minutes. However, compare his late game potential to real late game champions like Jinx or Vayne. He isn't even close.

Looks like falling off to me.

Tribbles FoxfolkApr 6, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Lee W/R before 25 (also not a laner but whatever): 55% 40+: 48%

Almost no games go to 40 minutes anymore. By 15, you can usually figure out which side is gonna win.

GankedByWindowsApr 6, 20174 votes

That is irrelevant. He is saying they don't fall off, which isn't true even if I agreed with your statement that no games go that long. They do fall off. They go down in winrate fairly linearly as game time goes on.

LyingOnLineApr 6, 20172 votes

My secondary point was that they don't fall off enough or fast enough to matter.

RalanrApr 6, 20173 votes

That's more of fault of the current pacing of the game though.

LyingOnLineApr 6, 20173 votes

That's kinda one of the core subjects of the topic.

chipndip1Apr 6, 20172 votes

So frame it so that it's more obvious, because half the people here are just whining that Renekton's a hyper-carry or some shit.

KingKong2350Apr 6, 20172 votes

The classic "change my argument in order to dismiss the most valid point" move. Executed flawlessly

ArakadiaApr 6, 20171 votes

Preach!

Supreme Senpai69Apr 7, 20171 votes

The only issue is that 25 minutes is basically late game now

ItsOrvalApr 6, 20172 votes

Last I checked Jayce doesnt do much damage late game. 1 cc to him and hes dead.

ArakadiaApr 6, 20171 votes

I need to find a late game jayce one shot montage lol.

ItsOrvalApr 7, 20171 votes

If Jayce is building crit then hes strong late game. But most people build Lethalty on him and late game he doesnt do much poke with Q+E.

chipndip1Apr 6, 20172 votes

Cait is the only one of them that has a strong late game.

Jet SettApr 6, 20173 votes

They fall off, they're just so far ahead you can't see any progress made towards getting there.

AimléssApr 6, 20171 votes

Caitlyn falls off, but just in mid game.

Alex h8721Apr 6, 20179 votes

How has Renekton not been mentioned in this thread?

Technically he does "fall off" lategame, but the problem is once he gets ahead in toplane by just auto-winning trades w/ ewqe combo and eventually all-in, a good Renekton will roam and snowball his other lanes so that your team has no hope of making it to "late game"

HyperiönApr 6, 20173 votes

Doesn't every champions who stomps lane?

Alex h8721Apr 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=FF Hyperion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m65YUXFR,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-04-06T19:45:44.530+0000)

Doesn't every champions who stomps lane?

True but IMO renek has a lot more good matchups than some others who are considered lane bullies.

Spicy RiceApr 6, 20172 votes

The difference is that renek bullies by out sustaining you in lane, by combining, healing, and getting out over and over.

Others (dar pants etc) just all in you to moment ou look at them sideways

chipndip1Apr 6, 20172 votes

The point of Renekton is making it so you have no hope of making it to late game, though. If you DO make it to late game, you basically win the "Renekton Game" and he's semi-useless.

You can't get mad if he's just doing his job.

ReZisT LustApr 7, 20173 votes

So hes doing his job you say?

GankedByWindowsApr 6, 20177 votes

Top 5 midlane from OP.GG going by winrate are: Anivia Ahri Fiddlesticks Zilean FIzz

One of those is a lane bully, maybe two if you're being generous. Fizz, Zilean, and Anivia certainly aren't. 60% are NOT lane bullies.

Top 5 for toplane are: Pantheon Kayle Talon Swain Karthus

Of those, one is a lane bully. You could make arguements for Swain into tanks, or Kayle into a tank with no mobility but in a general sense they are not.

So 2/10 normally, 5/10 if you're being generous. So do they fall off?

Pantheons winrate pre 25: 63% at 40: 52%

Fiddle winrate pre 25: 68% at 40: 52%

RalanrApr 6, 20178 votes

Talon I'd argue is also a lane bully.

GankedByWindowsApr 6, 20178 votes

He has quite a few bad matchups and his kill potential is telegraphed too much for me to consider him one. He excels at shoving then using his mobility to gank other lanes and snowballs the other lanes. I can definitely see where you're coming from though. If he does get a kill in lane its over. So I looked at his stats

Winrate before 25: 65% Winrate after 40: 51%

It just furthers my point that lane bullies do actually fall off, contrary to the OP

LadyRenlyApr 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Top 5 midlane from OP.GG going by winrate are: Anivia Ahri Fiddlesticks Zilean FIzz

One of those is a lane bully, maybe two if you're being generous. Fizz, Zilean, and Anivia certainly aren't. 60% are NOT lane bullies.

Anivia is a lane bully...

Automated RivenApr 6, 20173 votes

anivia hasnt been a lane bully since her ult changes. since her q is literally the slowest moving skillshot in the game its pretty easy to sidestep and her damage has been nerfed pretty repeatedly.

Acheron16Apr 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m65YUXFR,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2017-04-06T23:42:27.640+0000)

anivia hasnt been a lane bully since her ult changes. since her q is literally the slowest moving skillshot in the game its pretty easy to sidestep and her damage has been nerfed pretty repeatedly.

This is true. Her E damage now requires her to hit her Q (let's be honest, my granma is faster than that projectile) or have a fully built R, neither of which should affect a decent opponent.

Acheron16Apr 6, 20174 votes

They rarely fall off. Riot has balanced them so that they are slightly weaker late game, but never objectively bad.

So what happens is: they get fed and snowball the game for their team OR they dont get fed and serve as mediocre picks (not bad).

RalanrApr 6, 20172 votes

I'd argue Pantheon falls off because of how simple his kit is. Not much he can do except die when he dives late, maybe kill someone.

Sire HippingtonApr 6, 20174 votes

The issue here is not lane bullies not falling off, because the vast majority, especily pan and renekton that often get mentioned, fall off very hard later on. Most lanebullies slope down quite heavily, indicateing that their powercurve works just as intendet- The issue is that the game overall snowballs so hard that lategame often just doesn't happen, so they win befor they really fall off. Thats also why lethality builts and the likes are favoured over crit, as they spike much earlier. There's no point in further nerfing the scaleing of bullies or buffing the potential of lategame scaleing shit, the main issue is the general game state.

Hexs FortuneApr 6, 20172 votes

fizz is a lane bully once he hits 6

Big LincolnApr 6, 20172 votes

which lane bullies

be more specific

NielarkenApr 6, 20171 votes

Fiora Is the biggest in my mind, she bullies most of all champion that go top lane yet she still scales into late game where her only weakness is suppose to be "poor" wave clear. Vladimir is another where even if he does poor late game and can't push the other lanner out he still scales late game when he starts finishing items.

RalanrApr 6, 20176 votes

Neither of those are actually land bullies.

Lane bullies are champions like Darius, Pantheon, Rumble, and arguably Riven.

JarvansWARApr 6, 20173 votes

Fiora is arguably a lane bully, just a medium-tier one.

Asayake 5150glowApr 6, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Fiora is arguably a lane bully, just a medium-tier one.

She's a lane bully in the same way Riven is a lane bully - she's a good duelist.

Any real lane bully or other duelist has an even shot against her, and many divers/juggernauts do too, although most juggernauts toplane are lane bullies.

JarvansWARApr 6, 20174 votes

Took the words right out of my fingers.

Big LincolnApr 6, 20179 votes

vlad is turbo cancer but he's not a lane bully, even a Juggernaut can all in him repeatedly in lane

Asayake 5150glowApr 6, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m65YUXFR,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-04-06T14:33:22.631+0000)

which lane bullies

be more specific

Kennen Swain Cassiopeia Darius Renekton Rumble

RexSaurApr 7, 20172 votes

How has nobody mentioned zyra?

Shes one of the strongest laners in the game AND a god at team fighting at the same time.

Its so stupid.

PermabannedGarenApr 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

As is, your payoff for surviving them and not feeding them a bunch is supposed to be outscaling them.

Yet it doesn't happen. Certainly not by the time most games are decided, and almost never by the time they're ending.

They just snowball all over, deny CS, take towers, and find kills all too easily, and because Riot refuses to let lategame champs have a goddamn chance, they scale into teamfights just fine.

You want a visualization? Go to any stats site and look up the highest pick/winrate champions in top or midlane. Look at games won by time. Check how many of them slope up versus slope down.

What lane bullies do you believe don't fall off my son?

Matt521Apr 6, 20172 votes

Caitlin and Darius are two off the top of my head

PermabannedGarenApr 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Caitlin and Darius are two off the top of my head

Caitlyn yes, since her intended weak point is meant to be mid game.

Darius not really. Darius is very situationally strong late game. He does fall off compared to the carry top laners like Yasuo, Riven, Fiora, Wukong, or Tryndamere. All of these but Wukong can also dunk on him late game.

Asayake 5150glowApr 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Caitlyn yes, since her intended weak point is meant to be mid game.

Darius not really. Darius is very situationally strong late game. He does fall off compared to the carry top laners like Yasuo, Riven, Fiora, Wukong, or Tryndamere. All of these but Wukong can also dunk on him late game.

Dude, everyone falls off compared to the late game hypercarries known has Yas, (a good) Riven, Fiora, and Trynd.

PermabannedGarenApr 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Dude, everyone falls off compared to the late game hypercarries known has Yas, (a good) Riven, Fiora, and Trynd.

Not really. Not one of the champions I named is a hypercarry, merely a carry. They are outcarried by champions like Vayne, Twitch, or Azir.

Asayake 5150glowApr 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Not really. Not one of the champions I named is a hypercarry, merely a carry. They are outcarried by champions like Vayne, Twitch, or Azir.

Not Riven and Yas (if they're good).

Fiora has a chance too, although she isn't really a carry at all, more of a split pusher (same with Trynd).

just OK junglerApr 10, 20171 votes

They all fall off dont cry

DeathBurstApr 10, 20171 votes

your payoff for surviving them ... They just snowball all over, deny CS, take towers,

If they did all of that, you didn't "survive" them. Maybe in the most literal sense, you didn't die. But if you can't at least hold your tower and get CS under it, they still did their job and they deserve to win.

Champs like Pantheon, Renekton, Camille, definitely fall off in late game. But not if they take first tower and have a free farm lane.