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Tell me Riot what is actually wrong with allowing 5 bans?

LegacyDAP··86 votes·4,693 views

Why can't we have 5 bans one ban pick for each person? That literally makes no sense. I feel like you guys have just ignored this idea constantly, and I don't see any exploits in it. So why won't/can't you do this?

Edit: I'd like to thank all of you for your inputs. This issue has been brought up multiple times within the League community, and since I've never really seen a Riot post saying why this wouldn't work, and so I wanted the communities opinion on this.

That being said, I don't think this idea could work in our current circumstances, it seem possible at first, but there would have to be too many changes to make the system work, and I'm pretty sure that's why it's stayed as is, but I still feel this idea could possibly have it's chances to work in the future.

Extra Edit: It's not really going to work for the fact that you can ban out the entire god tier top lane, but if more champions were god tier it would prevent this from happening, and that's the point I was trying to make with champ diversity, and having more champions in god tier makes the game a bit more diverse, but since only 3 or 4 champions are extremely good top they can easily be banned out.

Again thank you all!

130 Comments

Irelia Bot30 votes

This is what we need

Sachabot2 votes

Something like the Smite order, but expanded for five? I'd be down for it.

LegacyDAP2 votes

Agreed, but people might just complain that it's copied from Dota 2.

Irelia Bot19 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, but people might just complain that it's copied from Dota 2.

Well League is basically an off copy of Dota and was largely designed by one of the creators of the most popular version of Dota.

I see nothing wrong with it.

LegacyDAP3 votes

Neither do I. I was just taking it in as a possibility that people could complain.

What Is Smite2 votes

Is this what you mean? Even though it is my glitched up Client during patch 5.7 it still makes a statement as to how many bans we could have.

Edit: Sorry about the Size of the image, just scroll up and click the dark background

supes the lost1 votes

I can take a guess and say your team had first pick and your teams bans were registering on both sides, still, neat glitch to demonstrate that there is actually room for 5 champ bans.

What Is Smite1 votes

actually it was caused by a laggy client, i got into one lobby after a bit of lag delay and all 6 bans went through then someone dodge the game before it could start, i then got into the lobby in the pick again with a lag delay on the client and the bans were there from what the enemy team banned in the previous lobby

supes the lost1 votes

Alright, that makes sense, I only suggested my idea on it since the bans sorta lined up with how bans were already going on your side, hope your lag eases up.

TheNorthernGrey1 votes

The only problem I see with this that you could guarantee you get your champ, then immediately ban it's hardest counter. It hurts the strength of counterpicking greatly.

Irelia Bot4 votes

{quoted}

The only problem I see with this that you could guarantee you get your champ, then immediately ban it's hardest counter. It hurts the strength of counterpicking greatly.

Well that is kinda a reason to have it. It will make picks and bans have more meaning then just banning whatever is considered "Op" or in the meta. As a result there will be more things being played in a competitive level and it also allows for banning out a strategy that the other team is clearly trying to work toward such as global ults with shen, noc and TF or massive AoE team fight damage and the like.

I don't see the down side you are suggesting as really being a problem

LoLKiru9 votes

Would adding more bans actually solve anything?

Say you for instance (with 10 total bans) banned out the 2 strongest champions in each role; Wouldn't the next strongest just become the popular pick, thus putting you right back at square one, with one specific champion being picked over those who are inferior to him / her?

YvieZileanOddly5 votes

{quoted}

Would adding more bans actually solve anything?

Say you for instance (with 10 total bans) banned out the 2 strongest champions in each role; Wouldn't the next strongest just become the popular pick, thus putting you right back at square one, with one specific champion being picked over those who are inferior to him / her?

That would only be true if each champion was just a downgrade of the best champion. In a perfect world where each champion has their own niche, this would never happen. And that's what patches are for.

Are8 votes

Here are some reasons why: -Champ select will take longer (this can probably be fixed though) -The amount of champions required to play ranked rises. -Some permaban champions will become absolutely permabanned. With only 6 bans, they aren't banned 100% of the time, but with 10 they most definitely will.

When your main champion becomes "OP" and permabanned, you suffer big time.

Lugg7 votes

This is EXACTLY why you need more bans. If a champion is perma-banned, it's because they are OP and need nerfs! This would force Riot to balance champions so that they would get played.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

ImHerVoice1 votes

thats not true. Theres still people in low and high elo that ban stuff like shaco or kat or warwick or riven because they don't like how the champ works despite there being way worse champions out (ekko.....yeah... He's perma ban to me until he's gutted by riot lets be real here).. And sej and gragas and reksai are all ban targets to me simply because of cinderhulk being retardedly broken on them.

Lugg5 votes

You should be good on more than one or two champions. If you only play champions that are constantly banned, you are relying on the champion being overpowered to win rather that your own skill.

It Hertz When IP4 votes

I have to say I'm with this guy. This is a GAME. People play a game to have fun. And if a champion is being selected as being un-fun to play against almost 100% of the time, then that champion NEEDS to be adjusted in some way.

Sona Ping1 votes

I've played Draft across a lot of levels; I've seen Blitzcrank and Warwick be constantly banned.

I'll let that settle for a while.

Lugg2 votes

If you don't think those are good bans, then that just opens up more champions that you think are strong for you to pick.

EkkoFroffles11 votes

The only legit drawback I've seen mentioned for 5 bans per team is that last one. But it's a risk I, personally, am willing to take. Especially since people often are in disagreement over what champions are deserving of "permaban" status. Maybe it's just in low ELOs, but bans are all over the map in my ranked matches.

Plus, if you're playing a champion who's currently "OP" then you already have to accept that you may very well not get to play them and so you should have back-up plans. I'm under no delusions that if I were to play ranked now for the first time in nearly a month that I'd have a good chance at playing Ekko, for example, and I'm okay with that.

acepil0t3 votes

Permaban champions are the problem to begin with, not the ability to ban them.

Rıots Bad Client6 votes

Adding more ban would be like riot admitting their champions are not balanced.

And riot ain't going to admit shit.

LegacyDAP3 votes

The problem I see. Is they know only a couple of their champions are really fucking good, so adding 5 bans for each team. Is going to make the meta be a larger variety, because the limited champion pool of Exceptionally Good, and they seem to have a hard time making other champions as good as others.

Narasimha4 votes

It... would be the exact opposite, the number of viable picks would shrink. You'd have Group A of champions being literally permabanned, and Group B would then be the go to picks. And when people start banning them, the groups would just switch. And again. And again. And nothing gets solved. It just helps people to avoid the problem.

Frikgeek6 votes

Because it would become stupid in competitive play. And ranked is supposed to be the competitive-like gamemode, let's not ruin it by making it different than actual competitive play like CSGO does.

LegacyDAP4 votes

How so? There are 100+ champions. I understand some are better than others, but what if Riot made all the champions have their pros and cons, so each champions was good in its own way?

If you ask me the only reason it's bad in comp play is because the champion pool for good champions is so limited? Maybe in LCS it would be stupid. I strongly agree there, but what about solo queue ranked? I don't want to depend on the random first pick to choose all of the bans.

That's why they should keep the 3 ban limit in LCS and/or Ranked 5v5's, and add 5 bans each for solo queue. I don't see the problem with that. Except the entire meta being banned, but that's because the meta now is just the tiniest champion pool.

All the immobile mid champs aren't in the meta, because they don't have map presence, therefore they usually ban one mobile champ. If they add 5 they'll probably ban more mobile champions, because all the mobile champions are the new characters that are really strong and in the meta.

Frikgeek12 votes

You can't be serious... All of the champions do have their pros and cons, some are just more useful than others. It's not about some champs being impossible to beat, they're just better than others in their category. They might not share all of the pros some other picks have, that's why pocket picks exist. If you think Riot can balance 120+ champions without resorting to the dota style "everything is broken" balancing then you're just delusional. It's the same with fighting games, most have a viable fighter roster with ~10 fighters and everything else isn't as good.

Solo queue ranked should always have the same format as actual competitive play, that's why it exists. It's competitive with random matchmaking.

LegacyDAP3 votes

I agree, and I thank you for your input.

I never did say I went with my original post, but more that I wanted Riot's insight on why they wouldn't do it, because it still seems kind of vauge. It seems like a good, but also a bad idea, because like every champion. It's got its pros and cons.

I know you're most likely right on this one, and the cons most likely outweigh the pros, but I was hoping a rioter would say something about this topic considering it's been brought up more than once.

That being said. I still think 5 bans could be a great idea, but only on different circumstances then what we have now.

Your comments do seem to lean towards the offensive side.

B1naryB0t4 votes

I don't remember when, but I remember some Red more or less saying the same thing. Saying that you can effectively ban out an entire team composition, or 5 bans can effectively shut down any one player, and that's not how bans are meant to work. Bans are meant to work as a "Our team doesn't wanna face X, so I ban X" not "I want to make the the midlaner cry, so I ban A and B and C and D and E"

The Yetii Rider5 votes

There's actually a compelling reason for not increasing the bans that Riot's never brought up: Because if you increase the number of bans each team gets, you increase the number of champions required to play Draft Mode (which is very relevant at the lower levels, and also punishes smurfs in ranked).

With 2 more bans on each side, that increases the number of champions required to play Draft from 16 to 20, and that is not nothing. Given that the average IP cost of a champion is 3150, that's quite a few extra weeks' worth of playing before you can start Drafting. Not to mention, what about players who are currently playing Draft and Ranked, but then Riot all of a sudden says "Sorry, you need four more champions because we're increasing the number of bans!"

It's punishing new players and players who are still getting used to the game, which Riot definitely does not want to do.

Anidan2 votes

To play Devil's Advocate: Shouldn't we be a bit more harsh on who gets to play in a more competitive environment? Remember, it's not just you in there. When you go into Draft and Ranked, you're expected by your team to have a decent handle on your various lane matchups and mechanics. So with that extra time that the ban increase would enforce should give them more time, whether they like it or not, to practice their mechanics and matchups in a less stressful environment making their actual entry into the more competitive field less stressful for both them and their teammates. It is completely possible to enter into Ranked too early, and I've seen it done a lot.

And also, about those smurfs: They're smurfs. I don't hate them, but unlike new players who could easily get in over their head by jumping into ranked/draft too early, they know exactly what they're in for ahead of time. It won't stymie a good 95% of smurfs I've ever heard about.

Not saying I support a ban increase, not saying I don't. However, there are two sides to every argument that could be made about anything to do with a ban increase. It's kind of a touchy subject.

Slamurai Jack4 votes

The only thing giving each team 5 bans does is create 10 permaban champs instead of 6. All Solo Q ever uses bans for are to ban out champs they've heard are OP, every single game.

LegacyDAP2 votes

I see where you're coming from...

But do you think permaban champions with 10 bans is more because of the ban change, or more because of Champion Balance?

Slamurai Jack4 votes

People ban champions for 3 main reasons: They think the champ is OP, they find the champ annoying, because their team will rage if they don't ban a specific champ, and any combination of the 3. People ban on perception rather than on actual power; Leblanc is still very heavily banned despite a 44% win rate, yet almost no Janna bans despite a near 54.5% win rate. Ekko is near permabanned because people think he's broken despite performing far below average in solo Q. Annie, on the other hand, wins 55% in mid but people don't ban her. Hell, Sejuani is still banned 67% of the time with a 49.5% win rate, and the only reason people still ban her is because no one has told them to stop. People ban what they're afraid of or what they're annoyed by, actual power doesn't have alot to do with it. Thats the only way Yasuos 90% ban rate with a 42% win rate for nearly 2 months makes any sense. If we had 10 bans, he would've stayed permabanned far longer.

What Is Smite2 votes

People ban by what they dislike playing against, I can pretty much handle most meta picks through use of logic and analysis of their kits then playing towards their weaknesses, unfortunately people tend to shut off their analytical thoughts when they think of meta picks

Syndrarella2 votes

[deleted]

Raptamei10 votes

{quoted}

Games would be pretty weird if you could say.... Ban 10 ADCs or 10 Supports at a time.

And? That would be the choice of both teams.

Biffolo1 votes

{quoted}

And? That would be the choice of both teams.

And then you have entire roles destroyed, which is terrible. You ban thresh, leo, sona, janna, naut, morg, braum, annie, nami, and blitz. ""Oops, sorry. You need to have mastered more than half the champions that exist viably for the role you want to play." You would need at LEAST 11 champions to be mastered, and that's just fucking asssanine. Competitive play would die in a heartbeat, you could target ban anyone barring faker or deft. It's absurd. 5 is REALLY pushing it and a terrible idea, 10 is just dumb.

Vistha Kai7 votes

At least it would be fucking entertaining instead of spamming 10 exact same champions every goddamn match.

I stopped watching LCS because you can watch one match a split and you've seen them all.

Biffolo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m3IIJlkB,comment-id=0016000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-21T13:48:04.660+0000)

At least it would be fucking entertaining instead of spamming 10 exact same champions every goddamn match.

I stopped watching LCS because you can watch one match a split and you've seen them all.

Balance comes before what is more "entertaining". The way it is now is entertaining enough to be fine, while still keeping things balanced.

Vistha Kai1 votes

You use word "balance" speaking about game that has Annie with her "0 counterplay" kit and Katarina with her "1v5 penta when 0/10" kit running rampant.

The way it is now 9 out of 10 games in LCS have same exact champions picked and banned. Veeeeeeery entertaining. So entertaining in fact I can't watch this crap for 30 minutes without falling asleep. "Oh, again they first-picked champion X. What a surp- https://38.media.tumblr.com/98625560394deb94b6d5aca0cc5643d7/tumblr_inline_mi2ds9YT1O1qz4rgp.png "

Biffolo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m3IIJlkB,comment-id=001600000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-23T08:36:23.140+0000)

You use word "balance" speaking about game that has Annie with her "0 counterplay" kit and Katarina with her "1v5 penta when 0/10" kit running rampant.

The way it is now 9 out of 10 games in LCS have same exact champions picked and banned. Veeeeeeery entertaining. So entertaining in fact I can't watch this crap for 30 minutes without falling asleep. "Oh, again they first-picked champion X. What a surp- https://38.media.tumblr.com/98625560394deb94b6d5aca0cc5643d7/tumblr_inline_mi2ds9YT1O1qz4rgp.png "

Annie has plenty of counterplay lol, stay out of that miniscule range, abuse her immobility. You need to be proactive vs her. And kat dosen't 1v5 when 0/10 unless everyone has 200 hp.

Vistha Kai1 votes

What was her "miniscule range" again... 1300 + sth with Flash?

Biffolo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m3IIJlkB,comment-id=00160000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-23T13:04:47.273+0000)

What was her "miniscule range" again... 1300 + sth with Flash?

Oh wow, she relies on a 5 minute cd spell, maybe 4 if she has all her stuff reduced to hit 1300 range. If you can't play around that, you deserve to losse.

viken1 votes

No reasonable amount of bans will let you ban every god tier every time. Hell, did you know that faker bans garen, galio, and gangplank every solo queue game because those are the ones at the top of the list alphabetically? Imo bans are meant to balance champions elo-specifically, per say. Katarina totally pubstomps low elo games because teams will not CC her, period. However, this doesn't mean kat deserves to be gutted, because better players know how to counterplay her, therefore kat gets banned in low elos and everyone's happy. There's a lot of champions that can fit this category, and while a larger champion pool does reason more bans, that would totally kill the "diversity" that riot so badly wants. There couldn't possibly be that many OP picks at any given point, ESPECIALLY in a meta like this where nothing's really crowded out.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Funny that Kat stats are the same or even better the higher the ELO goes.

Easyyy1 votes

everyone ignores that idea because it sucks.....lol

LegacyDAP2 votes

That is extremely close minded. Thinking any idea sucking without even putting it into action is stupid. I don't think the idea is great, that's why I'm asking what's wrong with it, but you sir don't even say anything on why it sucks. You just say it sucks. The idea could possibly work. However, I don't think the idea will work because the meta pool is very low.

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