Who is better at killing waves: mana champs or manaless

CerealBoxOfDoom··3 votes·1,252 views

consider needing more than one ability or a particular item as a negative thing

particular item != particular stat. Assume they have realistic but high amount of AD and AP at 10-20 minutes or if you can just say how much they'd need to clear the wave. Some of us know how to plot graphs and could probably actually show how this works though that would be extra work I guess.

consider how much time passes during which said champ must remain in the same location

consider how much potential there is to interrupt the wave clear

assume that ults are off limits if the ult has a cooldown of more than 35 seconds at 20% cdr

spells with more than one part count as multiple casts

spells with a delay only count against if the champion is forced to stand still.

count champs that don't require you to kill anything for mana restoration as manaless.

consider how far one must extend to do said farming

if one must transform to be manaless then count it as a manaless champ anyways

remember

this is partly about resources committed to clearing the wave and how safely it can be done assuming there's no special advantage

also caster minions have a range of 550 so they'll be 550 range away from the melee ones

60 Comments

Zero Skill Tank7 votes

This thread has no point. Zed has obviously way better waveclear than Vayne, but than again not as great as Anivia.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

so the upper limits of mana champs tends to be higher? As well as the lower limits?

BLACK REALM GOD3 votes

Anivia KarthusSwain -> high damage aoe mana drain.

Karthus -> flat ap conversion multi-target eruption.

Viktor ->2 point combo that will relocate and then decimate an entire wave.

Heimerdinger -> wave auto push.

Ahri -> true damage

all use mana

Reikken1 votes

mana users includes the best waveclear and the worst waveclear

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

There simply isn't any reasonably direct correlation between waveclear and mana.

What mana correlates with is range - ranged champions are almost always mana users, and range is obviously a big benefit for waveclearing. But that's about it.

Catastrop3 votes

Mana champions, they generally have more AoE, something manaless champions don't have in mass for balance.

Tormentula2 votes

{quoted}

Mana champions, they generally have more AoE, something manaless champions don't have in mass for balance.

Akali Zed Vladimir RenektonKennen Rengar Riven DrMundo all have AoE abilities.

Catastrop5 votes

The only ones good at clearing a wave there is Zed, Vlad and Ren. The rest need lots of stats or need to build a specific way(Ap Ren). I'll just clarify what I meant when said "no aoe." The AoE they have isn't suitable for wave clear. What good is Mundo's Burning Agony compared to an Ori QWE combo which one shots the wave?

Tormentula2 votes

{quoted}

The only ones good at clearing a wave there is Zed, Vlad and Ren. The rest need lots of stats or need to build a specific way(Ap Ren). I'll just clarify what I meant when said "no aoe." The AoE they have isn't suitable for wave clear. What good is Mundo's Burning Agony compared to an Ori QWE combo which one shots the wave?

While an Orianna can waste half her mana mid game just to combo a wave off tower, it doesn't take much besides a few autos, and active by item 3077. Mundo would be the only one I'd say lacks good waveclear since its such a weak AoE ability and he doesn't build damage to scale with it. Even Kennen has wave clear in his EW.

Akali has her E but thats about it.

LankPants1 votes

Akali has her E but thats about it.

Most Akali's do max E now, at least in the top lane. She can tear through waves super quick with her E spam.

Catastrop5 votes

But will Kennen kill the wave with EW? No he won't, he needs a serious amount of ap to do it, Ori can do at all levels regardless of AP. This thread is about whose better at killing the wave, mana champions in general have big linear/aoe skillshots that don't require much positioning to clear a wave. it's gated by mana so it's easy enough to balance something like this, so it's fine to give them this kind of waveclear. Resourceless champions rarely have this. They need to put way more effort into clearing a wave, auto attacks, item actives and abilities. Few use abilities alone and from a safe range.

LankPants1 votes

Good at clearing is relative to your class.

Compared to the set of melee fighters Riven, Mundo, Renekton and Akali (when played as a bruiser) all have excellent waveclear.

I also don't know why you're arguing that Vlad has poor wave clear.

Catastrop1 votes

I know. but OP simply asked whether or not mana or manaless champions were better, regardless of class. So I gave my opinion.

I also don't know why you're arguing that Vlad has poor wave clear.

No I did not, reread what I said.

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

Karthus

Fiddlesticks

Jinx

Nunu

Veigar

MissFortune

KogMaw

Anivia

MasterYi

all use mana. can clear waves extremely well.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lxHqJF6T,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-09-14T13:43:19.906+0000)

Karthus

Fiddlesticks

Jinx

Nunu

Veigar

MissFortune

KogMaw

Anivia

MasterYi

all use mana. can clear waves extremely well.

Nunu does not have good waveclear. He single target nukes a minion and then throws ice balls and auto attacks.

Unless he uses ult to wave clear (wtf) hes not clearing shit fast.

BLACK REALM GOD3 votes

is that how people nunu? man i must be doing something wrong then... cause my waves disappear like french toast at a french toast fan club breakfast table

Joseph Gladstone2 votes

This thread is so pointless lol

Ralanr1 votes

I'd like to see where he's going with this actually. If this is an experiment then I want to see the results.

Joseph Gladstone2 votes

Its clear that some mana champs have wave clear and some dont, and the same with mana-less. Maybe it seems that more people think there are more mana champs with wave clear is because there are more mana champs? :p

Ralanr1 votes

Yes, that's what I said. Though I think the point of this thread is to show that people who complain about manaless champions being better at everything are using fallacious reasoning.

Maximum Morde1 votes

Eh, both types can clear waves very fast and safely. You need to be much much more specific.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

give 6 random examples

3 of each. No need for a paragraph just name 6 champs

Maximum Morde1 votes

Mana - Morgana Jinx Chogath.

Manaless - Kennen Yasuo Zed

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

AP morgana can actually melt a wave but she has to wait till a specific moment when its about to move to get all of it. I'd count that as something of a delay atop a delay cuz DoT Jinx can clear pretty quick but its expensive and mostly good because of its range, it was like 900 or 1000 units wasn't it? Chogath struggles a bit but when he is able to autoattack he gets free aoe to push with. So even he has some sort of tool but requires loss of safety unlike the other two that are excessively safe. On the otherhand he sustains whenever he kills something

kennen struggles in general to clear a minion wave yasuo needs 2 abilities and more AD than he would normally rush to clear the wave very quickly or he needs multiple casts.. actually now that I think about it he just flat out needs a minimum of 3 casts to clear a wave and has to get in around melee range of minions each time. So there's a bit of a risk factor on yasuo's part Zed can't reliably kill the wave with just one ability can he? I think he needs his shadow or slash to do it.

Maximum Morde1 votes

AP Cho clears a wave with Q+E, or if he's fed beyond just Q.

Kennen in no way struggles to clear a wave if you are maxing W and E. If you are maxing Q, then yes he struggles.

Yasuo has almost no risk cause he can just infinite dash around the wave to clear it. He's kinda the outlier in my choices because I mostly consider single rotation, but Yas doesn't have meaningful cooldowns so single rotation is kinda meaningless to him.

Zed needs to use his shadow to clear it in one rotation but it can be done just fine.

There are tons more manaless and mana champs that can clear a wave with a single rotation. So I'm not sure what you are trying to get out of this?

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

Kennen has to touch the minions with E to use W on them or he has to do multiple autoattacks with no additional range.. plus that's 2 abilities on cooldown and he has to get in melee range of ranged minions. Even then he needs a lot of AP to really have any chance of actually clearing the wave like this and must take risks a second time to quickly push the lane.

Yasuo cannot infinite dash and that's multiple spellcasts anyways. To dash he must be close to the minions and thus taking some manner of risk.

doesn't zed's shadow have a significant cooldown to be exploited by others for most of the game?

Sure with a single ROTATION but what about a single ability. If you use your whole rotation and akali presses R what happens then?

Maximum Morde1 votes

What's your point? I really can only think of maybe a handful of Champions who can clear a wave after one ability, Morgana, Rammus, and Garen. Of those, Morgana can't do it till she has rank 3 of her W and some ap or rank 4 of her W, Garen would have to be leveling E first and building damage, and Rammus would have to be proxy farming. There might be a handful more, but not many can clear a wave with one spell unless they are fed relative to the game time. Single rotation is thus much more meaningful as there are tons of Champions who can do that.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

ramus has to ult for it though I don't know the CD

CAN garen really do this? Ive never seen him do this

Maximum Morde1 votes

Nah Rammus doesn't have to ult if he's Proxying. He just pushes W and the wave kills itself on him in a couple seconds. Garen CAN do this, if he's building damage and leveling his spin first, but it's not exactly a brilliant strategy lol.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

I'd count ramus as being stuck in place in that case. Minions aren't fast enough to kill themselves while he's freely on the move

the garen thing kindof counts if it works. Its partly about potentials but you have to also consider what is being given up

Ralanr1 votes

It depends on the champion, but obviously mana champions are better at waveclear simply because their champion line up is much bigger. You have mana champions that suck at waveclear and ones that have great waveclear.

There are only a few manaless champions I would consider to have good waveclear and even then I could be wrong: Riven, Zac, and Mordekaiser (maybe more, but none come to mind).

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

doesn't riven need to be in melee range and use multiple casts to clear a wave on top of autoattacks?

I'm not sure if zac could do much..

mordekaiser, I think I've seen him push gib a wave but his aoe was kindof small last I checked

Ralanr1 votes

Again I could be wrong and I'm just basing it over past experience (I have a bad track record against Riven players and usually have them push me under tower because whenever I try to farm otherwise she just does her Q combo through minions).

I still stand by the statement than mana champions win in waveclear simply because they have more contenders to bring up as examples.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

I still stand by the statement than mana champions win in waveclear simply because they have more contenders to bring up as examples.

this would also imply that any evidence that a manaless champ is the best at anything at all in turn suggests that this specific claim is false.

Ralanr1 votes

I feel that there is a logical fallacy you're referencing but I can't quite remember which one.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

Its likely not a fallacy but rather a paradox

the raven's paradox to be specific. or one of the rules that it is made of

comp is glitch right now cant get the link just look it up

Ralanr1 votes

I looked up the definition on Wikipedia. It's interesting, but just makes me wonder if humanity is slightly insane.

Logic is a funny thing. Humans are funny.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

It depends on the champion, but obviously mana champions are better at waveclear simply because their champion line up is much bigger.

By this logic wouldn't it mean that manaless champs likely aren't that great at anything?

either they aren't great at anything or what they aren't great at perhaps means something

Ralanr1 votes

It means that people will take any "advantage" a champion thru don't like has and mouth it off as the real reason why they got beaten (imo).

Manaless champions (with the exception of health resource champions) are stronger early game because of their ability to harass without as much worry to manage resources (they still have to manage to some extent). For energy (as I've learned by playing Shen) this usually means you have very limited combos that fall apart if you don't do them right and become predictable after a while.

Stronger early game means a frustrating laning phase, which people seem to notice the most in their games.

So you're correct, what they aren't great at does mean something.

Jo0o1 votes

Some champs have better waveclear than others, but I don't think there's any meaningful correlation with their type of resource. Are you actually trying to establish better knowledge of the game, or are you just using this as a statistical exercise?

GuardianReaper1 votes

For mana i would say: Orianna Morgana Karma

All three can clear waves quickly specially when it comes to late game wave clears.

Manaless: Kennen Katarina Zed / Yasuo

same as with the mana champs. they can clear waves pretty quickly and once late game and itemization comes in to play. waves can easily be cleared in seconds.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

Manaless

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

why manaless

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

spell spam, duh

Aptest1 votes

every champion has decent waveclear with good items and when uncontested. even Nami .

it's not how fast you delete a wave, it's under what conditions you do so.

Victor does it from range without interacting with opponents

kennen goes knee deep and burns his escape.

difference?

Zane Zephyr1 votes

Braum waveclear too strong

Aptest1 votes

item 3748 + item 3751 ?

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

best wave pusher in the game is viktor. and sivir. and gangplank

420 grams1 votes

Well there's tryndamere and yasuo with great wave clear that don't use mana, but there's yi and Tristana's that do need mana

Restless Slumber1 votes

In terms of manaless champs, the ones that do it best are Riven, Yasuo, and cougar form Nidalee. For champs that use resources, the best waveclear for AD champs are Jinx and Sivir. For AP, Viktor, Ryze, Azir, Orianna, and Syndra would be my top 5 best waveclear. If we are talking about who can clear multiple minion waves stacked up as fast as possible, I think it would go to Riven, Sivir, and Syndra.

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