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I mean I LOVE the new Taric A LOT, but I am afraid...

TheSlogs··18 votes·29,718 views

I am afraid that you are going to nerf him. His synergy is solid in a game with other people. There, he is an ok champion at best. But when you go duo with him, and you are in a skype call with your ADC? He is freaking outrageous. From the insane AoE stuns, to the coordinated invulnerable dives, you just can't compete with him.

I especially fear for the competitive level. It happens all the time where teams will go straight for early level dives, especially in this meta. Now when Taric hits level six, the team can get an almost effortless dive, with no risks whatsoever. I mean in a normal game with average players, you will have to act swiftly to kill someone under turret and get out with the seemingly short invincibility. But on a pro team? That small window is enough to get a triple kill from a dive and get out of there without a sweat.

The only saving grace for this is that he can get countered by CC, and the fact that the mobility creep is getting more and more relevant.

Thoughts?

P.S. You need to nerf how fun he is and how annoying it is to spam his joke. It's way too fabulous for the average player to handle.

97 Comments

RiotMeddler11 votes

It's likely we'll be nerfing Taric in 6.9. Not sure what yet, still assessing exactly where/when he's too strong. So far though he's performing significantly stronger than he should however so we'll need to do something.

Vendridil14 votes

{quoted}

It's likely we'll be nerfing Taric in 6.9. Not sure what yet, still assessing exactly where/when he's too strong. So far though he's performing significantly stronger than he should however so we'll need to do something.

I think it might be a bit early to make that call, he's barely been out 48 hours

RiotMeddler17 votes

That's why it's not a committed thing yet. Figured people might still be interested in hearing what we're thinking is most likely though.

Krys Star5 votes

Hey Meddler, I know this is off topic but I've been curious as to why Soraka is receiving nerfs on top of GW being reverted. This in itself is a huge and necessary nerf to Soraka. As a main, I welcome it with open arms!

But why is she receiving nerfs along with the GW changes? The .05(.20) buff to Rejuvenation is barely a compensation. Will Wish continue to not remove GW? And if it will, will it grant temporary immunity to GW? Morellos applies GW for 8s conpared to 4s on live, which is HUGE now that GW is affecting all heals.

RiotMeddler14 votes

We feel Soraka's too strong at present. The GW change should help reduce that somewhat, estimation is not enough though. Under other circumstances we'd potentially wait and see what's needed post 6.9 like we're doing with champs the QSS changes may affect. Belief is though that the Athene's changes will be a noticeable buff to her however so we're looking at some nerfs as a result.

Reintroducing some form of GW interaction with Wish is an option if GW starts shutting her down too hard in 6.9.

Hellioning5 votes

Does she do enough damage to make Athene's worthwhile? Especially since she's still probably gonna build tank?

Alesya3693 votes

She will not even do enough damage as pure glass cannon AP to make the new Athene's passive work. She is not a poke mage, getting into Q range will be too risky to charge the passive, not to mention its low damage (at least if you max W first) which will make it stack up REALLY slow even if you manage to keep hitting Q everytime it is off cooldown.

Sightless663 votes

not to mention its low damage (at least if you max W first)

Well, the highest winrate build by a wide margin maxes Q and that's pretty much the high-elo staple now, so there's at least some reason to think it would work with Athene's. Still probably worse than other champions by a significant margin.

Duke Anax3 votes

I hvae to diagree, becasue I play Soraka as a poke mage and it is very effective

Abyssphere11 votes

{quoted}

We feel Soraka's too strong at present. The GW change should help reduce that somewhat, estimation is not enough though. Under other circumstances we'd potentially wait and see what's needed post 6.9 like we're doing with champs the QSS changes may affect. Belief is though that the Athene's changes will be a noticeable buff to her however so we're looking at some nerfs as a result.

Reintroducing some form of GW interaction with Wish is an option if GW starts shutting her down too hard in 6.9.

I mean I feel like introducing the GW removal on her ult is kind of essential even if her balance state is OK. It's just... not good for her ult to be cut in almost half by something as simple as an ADC auto attacking someone. I understand nerfing Soraka being necessary but please don't deny a champion her biggest high moment with a mechanic so easy to apply.

Menonn6 votes

I think instead of putting GW removal on ult, just make her ult bypass GW, that way it wont completely negate the mechanic of the GW, but it will maintain her ult in a good shape

crippler382 votes

if a target has GW on them the healing is doubled boom

Shyvana Bot1 votes

spagetti code incoming

Sightless662 votes

Follow-up: Why these specific nerfs? It seems like a huge part of what is making her so strong is the nearly resourceless and mostly-unanswerable poke that is making her such an ungodly strong laner, so why is her healing being hit over that? It seems like other elements of her kit could be hit without touching on the healing, which would definitely feel nicer for Soraka players.

Also, just as a personal request, can you make her unable to buy Warmog's? Like, literally just disable the item for her? I'd really love not feeling forced to buy that item.

Belief is though that the Athene's changes will be a noticeable buff to her however so we're looking at some nerfs as a result.

That seems odd. I thought the item was primarily gated by the damage you dealt, not by the healing you do. Wouldn't it be significantly stronger on other champions like Karma, Nami or Sona?

Angry Monster2 votes

Your worried about 3rd item (after starting item and sightstone) being to strong... Odds are Athens/challice will never get seen in the lane phase though. Most of support gold comes from towers and you nerfed the global on that.

Considering I have seen you guys (you in particular) already talk about nerfing Tarric, maybe your pro flashy biases is coming out? In the web cast you guys already admitted that Zed was a problematic before Mid Mage Upadte.

For once i would love riot to have a uniformed action. Why is it always the non flashy champs are preemptively nerfed, but as soon as a flashy high moment champ needs to be looked at, it lets take out time.

got chills1 votes

They nerf the "non flashy champs" because they are easier to play while the "flashy champs" are usually harder to play so the player is what can truly make them OP.

Angry Monster1 votes

keep thinking that they are hard to play

SnugglePuggle943 votes

LOL that's where your wrong Meddler. She may be strong but not too strong like Zed. She doesn't deserve these double nerfs. Everything you do makes me shake my head in disgust.

nullen2 votes

{quoted}

We feel Soraka's too strong at present. The GW change should help reduce that somewhat, estimation is not enough though. Under other circumstances we'd potentially wait and see what's needed post 6.9 like we're doing with champs the QSS changes may affect. Belief is though that the Athene's changes will be a noticeable buff to her however so we're looking at some nerfs as a result.

Reintroducing some form of GW interaction with Wish is an option if GW starts shutting her down too hard in 6.9.

Like "True" Damage. Make her ult do "True" Healing.

SonicÐeHedgedawg2 votes

Given how that will completely maim Soraka, what if it reduced self healing by a certain % and other healing by a lesser %?

CoolKnightST1 votes

It would be tricky to nerf him before the mage changes. Just like is expected from his kit. He isn't that strong against magic damage comps. With mages getting buffed like that their is a chance he won't see a much play as is expected.

A second problem I foresee with him is that the current armor itematisation for supports is pretty underwhelming:

  • item 3143 is to expensive for a support item, ever since the crit changes the item just contains to many bonusses: It has health, armor, attackspeed slow, movement slow and crit damage reduction. No wonder it's so expensive.
  • item 3110 feels ok, it's not really that you can ballance an aura item perfectly.
  • item 3050 need some changes. Marksmen can easy get to 60% crit and it's not that you can activate it on command. That stats are nice but the active just feels underwhelming right now.
  • item 2053 not sure you still intend to make this viable for supports. But right now it's to expensive for that purpose.
  • item 3056 has nice stats that supports really could use. But the active is so useless it's not even worth thinking about it. It would be a nice line for supports since item 3512 can be a pretty intressting option. But lack of option can be a reason you wouldn't go for it. Taking risks is nice, but since taking a situational item is already risky I doubt I would take a risk 2 times in a row. The support role is just not designed for that. Better go ful AP Sona instead.
  • Etc...

Overal it feels like armor itematisation is left in the dust for support. You focussed on making armor more expensive and changed the support build to something static like:

  • item 2303 item 3009 item 3190

So be carefull on the nerf hammer. Taric indeed feels a little bit strong right now. But I also noticed his weaknesses. I tried a fells starts with him:

  • Thunderlords, resolve | Tank runes| item 3302 >> Etc
    • Damage seem to be nice, feels your still squishy early game
  • Thunderlords, resolve | Tank runes| item 3301 >> Etc
    • Damage seem to be nice, but way to squishy early game. Really nice on catches lategame but I think Thresh still beats him in that area.
  • Bond of Stone, cunning| Tank runes| item 3302 >> Etc
    • Probally best build right now, however it still has many weaknesses. The cooldown feels like the hugh weakness. Since your damage is much lower and your E is your only damage spell (not to mention waveclear like level 2 rush). You will strungle against counter what is perfectly fine.
  • Windspeaker's Blessing, resolve | Enchanter runes| item 3302 >> Etc
    • Not tested yet
  • Windspeaker's Blessing, resolve | Enchanter runes| item 3301 >> Etc
    • Not tested yet
  • Mastery points into Ferocity
    • Not tested yet, but I don't think it will be worth up to the keystone.
IICrowII1 votes

The GW removal on Wish was always stupid, and I suggest buffing Soraka in other ways (or, just reverting nerfs) if GW shuts her down too hard.

I think that building Athene's on a support is awfully optimistic. Even ardent censor is pretty much unbuildable.

Fenikkusu11 votes

Dear Meddler I have a question. Why do you guys have a PBE if your just going to wait and see what happens after the patch hits live? Isn't that what the PBE is for?

Red Honor1 votes

Reintroducing some form of GW interaction with Wish is an option if GW starts shutting her down too hard in 6.9.

How would you feel about putting the grievous wounds interaction on her e?

Having it on her ult which she plans to use anyway in most cases whether grievous wounds are being applied or not can make the wounds feel pretty underwhelming.

If you were to make her silence zone also remove grievous wounds from allies soraka would still be able to deal with the wounds, but they would feel impactful for whoever applied them by forcing her to put her e in a suboptimal place.

Driptorch2 votes

Does this not go against the qss changes, about making harder to balance a champion when you have an item as a hard counter?

Cressalia3 votes

{quoted}

That's why it's not a committed thing yet. Figured people might still be interested in hearing what we're thinking is most likely though.

I think a change to look into would be the bastion buddy range.

SammyTehJammy1 votes

Oh also I wanted to mention. What happens with Trynd + Kayle + Taric.

The durations are almost perfect. Undying rage into Intervention into Cosmic Radiance. Even without Tryndamere; 5 seconds is a long time to keep someone CC'd so they can't walk on the team. Then you have Kindred and Zilean ults (Taric looks like he can go top or Zilean can go mid) It doesn't look like it needs much effort to create a team at the moment that refuses to die :P

Not sure if thats fun or can be completely silly to play against.

NVe Palonthesky1 votes

@meddler I agree with you, and what I would change is yhe cast range of his W, and maybe the the tethers range by 50 to 100. There were times in my first 5 or 6 games playing him that I would be in the middle of the dragon pit with Taric and a teammate would get pulled over the wall by say a blitzcrank or darius pull, and I would have no trouble putting my Bastion on them. And then casting any spells afterwards would also be no problem as the tether range outclasses the cast range, but maybe that range is a bit too far.

Zedex1 votes

I'm finding Taric to be doing a lot of damage for not building much of it, mostly on his own in the early-mid stages. His auto attack weaving seems strong.

dEAdbUs1 votes

As old Taric main with pretty nice winrate I have to say that new Taric is very unfun to play against - his skillset is just too annoying . Previously Taric has some agressive skills, but he had to pay for you - some of his armor for example. New Taric doesn't pay anything for risky plays and procs of his passive. He procs his skillshot stun in melee range so he can't miss it - same situation like with Rengar bola. Skill has to be skillshot and get nice power in exchange, but nobody uses it like skillshot. Taric even can run away from you and stun you if you'll try to follow him! Without stopping. All new Taric now is about - breaking enemy plans. It can be fun for Taric, but not for the rest of players.

Ult effect is uneclear and most of his effects too. When Kayle immortal - you can clearly see that, with Taric it's a problem. He has so much stuff flying around him all the time, and you can't understand is this one more bubble is ult already or not? Taric's ADCs don't like it too, because they can't understand when Taric's ult is started.

XPL Turdong2 votes

{quoted}

I think it might be a bit early to make that call, he's barely been out 48 hours

He's been over-performing since he was tested on the pbe, but usually the call is made to see how it works out on live before making any drastic changes.

PDE5 Inhib3 votes

On the contrary, if he has only been out 48 hours and people are doing extremely well with him, that could be a problem also.

WadeWilson13371 votes

New Taric is op...Alot of pros are picking him when hes up. TL Matt even said he will be top tier once people learn how to use the stun. I honestly have not lost a single game with a Taric on my team. I had one game where the we had TWO disconnects for 3-4 minutes each, and we still won because we dived with his ult.

EreinionofNoldor1 votes

{quoted}

I think it might be a bit early to make that call, he's barely been out 48 hours

His winrate is already above 50%. Considering that almost everyone playing him has no experience and very strong champs like Jhin were sitting at about 40% winrates just after release, he's definitely broken tier right now.

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

It's likely we'll be nerfing Taric in 6.9. Not sure what yet, still assessing exactly where/when he's too strong. So far though he's performing significantly stronger than he should however so we'll need to do something.

I feel like Dazzle's delay is a little too short given its casting paradigm. It doesn't seem much longer than something like Nami's Q, and Taric being able to move during that delay + seeming to have no cast animation that cancels movement when the spell begins seems like it's about as dependable as his old Dazzle against anyone without a dash. The optimal path for a champion to get out of the stun is a perpendicular sidestep, but Taric probably has about the same amount of movespeed as them so he can imitate them to keep them in the hitbox.

And that's before even considering the fact that his bastion'd target has their own Dazzle vector the enemy has to deal with.

YourSh4dow2 votes

Maybe u can solve his serious early mana problems first.... he goes 100% → 0% mana reaaaly fast. Just after 1 or 2 small fights. Dat Q is so inefficient unless used on 3 or more champions its not even worth leveling.

Declined2 votes

Please hold off on changing him for now, as with any rework or champion release it take a while for the player base to adapt.

I actually find him pretty weak during the laning phase, his skillshot is telegraphed and therefore relatively easy to dodge. But more importantly he have clear wimdows of vulnerability, and if you play yoir cards right you can make him run out of mana very fast. Meaning you'll win by attrition.

In a straight up brawl he is pretty strong, agreed but this strength comes at the expense of high mana consumption making him VERY balanced.

I understand there could be some issues in lower elo brackets where people have more trouble dodging skillshots and determining strengths, weaknesses and positoning, but that is also the reason Blitz is feared there.

So hold off a bit please and see how people adapt to him first.

TheSlogs1 votes

As much as I like the interaction, I am going to have to suggest that you give his ult the Zilean treatment, where you make the removal of cooldowns(via Bravado) not affect his ultimate. It is good enough of an ability. where I think that is possible. You could also probably slightly increase the cooldown of his Q. What people are doing is keeping the Q at rank one and abusing its cooldown reduction for 60 mana and almost no cooldown.

Catloaf1 votes

Lol his passive doesnt reduce ult cd. Do you even Taric?

TheSlogs2 votes

Bro he has been out for two days. Sorry if I made a mistake.

nbd Itz Jacon1 votes

As someone whose played both as and against Taric, I feel he's in a good state, but I don't think he's overpowered like pre 6.8 Ekko. There are lots of strengths and weaknesses to each of his abilities in his kit. I have found that his laning phase isn't the best compared to other supports. He tends to be irrelevant against high poke bot lanes and a lot of his lane threat comes from his e which has a long, predictable cast/charge up time.

The places where I do think he's too strong is the dive potential he has at 6 and his team fight interaction with his ult, but the 2.5 sec to cast it is definitely not hard to deal with in a game with everyone in a party. I've seen the ult help make game changing plays, but also fail super hard when the ulted target get bursted down.

I think he's in a decent state, but could have some tweaking. Maybe nerfing the passive and q interaction would be a good spot without removing what he brings to the team fight and laning phase. Having the q potentially on a 3 second cooldown is really strong. Maybe make it reduce the cd by 4 or 3.5 sec with the passive empowered autos. Then the q would be on a5 sec cooldown and not be spammed as often. The mana costs are very on point, meaning that Glacial is definitely needed for long, drawn out team fights. And I think his defensive stats are in a good place early game. I haven't found Taric to be hard at killing before he gets some armor items.

I think as the week progresses with Taric people will realize the way to beat him is shut him down early and work around the ult, like Bard, but way easier. Just some thoughts so he doesn't get overnerfed and not played again.

SammyTehJammy1 votes

Fighting him, he doesn't seem nearly as obnoxious as some champions do, he actually has some fun aspects and counter play to him. (Insert salt about Soraka and my own personal tilt-Karma here) But I don't think Taric is super op.

One thing I do think is a bit much is the healing. Similar to Soraka but a fighter. Max Q, start a fight and keep pressing Q for more heals and damage.

Maybe just reduce the Q passive CD reduction to 3/4 seconds rather than 5. Being able to take 10 seconds off in what might as well be one auto attack is a bit much. Changing it to 3 or 4 is a huge reduction and already quite a large nerf but doesn't remove much of what you want new Taric to do.

Chookthespook1 votes

What if you made his ult affect enemy champions in it's Aoe too, kind of like Kindred. This would make Taric players have to think more about when they should and shouldn't ult. It would still be as effective for tower diving and surviving ganks, but at the same time, it would give the other team some counterplay during teamfights.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

It's likely we'll be nerfing Taric in 6.9. Not sure what yet, still assessing exactly where/when he's too strong. So far though he's performing significantly stronger than he should however so we'll need to do something.

I hope you dont strip out his little bit of damage that he has, like the old taric nerf direction. Playing him in solo lanes is the most fun he has been in a long time. Using w with your jungler is really satisfying, and as a major Taric player it is great that you arent absolutely glued to bottom lane.

Ive seen the nerfs on the PBE and im concerned that continued reductions to his ability to trade will make him unviable to fight common tops like Ekko.

His heal could definitely use some improvement or maybe a small regen effect that gains strength with gems after the fact.

Grashnim7 votes

He Will Be Nerfed. They just wanna sell the champ/skins for a bit.

Kiun3 votes

You are stupido.

Zone of Endless5 votes

He'll get nerfed. Probably increased CD/reduced base and probably slightly longer cast time on E.

z14GaKI7TO4 votes

His R is a bit much tbh... going from pretty much having a doublekill secured to him pressing one button and you almost getting doublekilled shouldn't be a thing....

3rd Age2 votes

in my past 2 days of playing ranked. taric has been in my games 5 times. all 5 on the enemy team. all 5 times his team has lost.

in my opinion he's weak..

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