I used to complain about the tank meta...

TheSlogs·Nov 13, 2015·259 votes·9,386 views

Now I see how wrong of me it was to hate it. The easiest way for me to explain what the meta was is this: It made games dynamic.

It allowed mess ups. It made sure that who was better at the game had a genuinely better chance of winning, even if they accidentally gave up first blood. It let you get full build in a lot of the games. You could reach your full potential. It allowed for strategy in team fights. It's not quite as easy when you all delete each other. It gave you options. You didn't have one set of items that you had to get(except ADCs) It allowed you to have fun. Even when you went that pure assassination build and complained about how tanky everyone was, you still were able to do stuff. It didn't matter what you built as long as the champion had some synergy with it.

I kind of miss it now...

191 Comments

IncognonymousNov 13, 2015149 votes

The tank meta was the healthiest the game has ever been.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 201518 votes

No it wasn't, there were still tier 1 picks in every role and unviable picks in every role. There was still overpowered items and worthless items. There was still a lack of diversity. There were still team comps and strategies that were almost mandatory.

It was like any other meta, simply shifted what and who was strong, it came no closer to balance for this game than it has ever been.

TheSlogsNov 13, 201558 votes

Wow, it's almost like people will pick the best thing for the situation! Variety will always be an issue, the tank meta just had more opportunities to do things.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20158 votes

Yeah no it was just like any other meta, each role had like 3-4 favorites and anything else was basically an inefficient pick. Like I said it simply changed what was strong, it was in no way any more balanced than any other meta we have had.

TheSlogsNov 13, 201537 votes

So, actually, if you had used your eyes, you would see that I said, in my reply, that variety will always be an issue. I did not actually say "you are wrong" anywhere in my reply. Maybe you want to look back and read it again?

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20155 votes

The original comment i replied to said it was the healthiest meta for the game. My comment disagreed with that based on the fact that it has had the same effect as every meta had on the game. You disagreed with that comment and brought up variety which is one of the things i mentioned in my reply, which is why i repeated myself. My original comment still stands.

Top lane Maokai, Hecarim, Gnar, and Rumble. Jungle Sejuani, Gragas, and Rek'sai. Mid Viktor, Ahri, and Oriana. Adc Graves, Jinx , and Vayne. Support Nautalis, Shen, and Thresh. That's the tank meta in a nutshell. There was no more diversity or opportunities for diversity than there was in any other meta. If you didn't pick one of them you basically didn't want to win.

TheSlogsNov 13, 201515 votes

Okay? I'm not arguing against you here at all.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20154 votes

I said that the tank meta was no different for the game from any other meta because it didn't change anything only shifted it around. You said ti did because you believe there was more diversity during the tank meta, "Variety will always be an issue, the tank meta just had more opportunities to do things." That wasn't the case at all, it was just as "diverse" as any other meta.

RetroRage96Nov 13, 201517 votes

I think you are misunderstanding OP's intended meaning of "do things." To my knowledge, he/she is describing ingame actions, beyond ChampSelect, where there could be comebacks and strategy. Mistakes could be made without ruining the game for your team, and it would take an especially dominant team to stomp anybody. This does not entail champion diversity or "favorite" picks. In any meta, there will always be popular picks and completely unused picks. OP is not addressing that, he/she is addressing the ingame variety and strategy.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20152 votes

He starts the sentence off with variety, and finishes it with a vauge "do things." How was I supposed to know what he is talking about, of course i would have assumed it was about what the rest of his comment was about, variety.

Also what other strategies were their in the game. Pick as many teamfighting tanks as you can, a utility mage and one of the three viable adc's and turtle early scale up then wombo combo your way to a win. You didn't see split pushing comps during the tank meta, nor did you see pick comps or early game comps. It was all late game comps that excelled at 5v5. That was the golden strategy if you wanted to win during the tank meta.

There was no more room for error than any other meta, chances are if you couldn't beat them on equal footing during the early game, the late game team of teamfighting tanks would be impossible to come back on .

I'll say it again, it was no more healthy or different than any other meta. All it did was shift who and what was strong. You only remember it better because champions you like were favored during that meta.

RetroRage96Nov 13, 201511 votes

You are only focusing on picking champions. That is not the only thing that contributes to the health and playability of a meta. Being in the wrong position for two seconds before a teamfight in the current meta will most likely cost you your life, and possibly more lost allies or an objective. In the previous meta, if you were out of position for a few seconds, you would probably take some damage, and maybe be inititated on, but you wouldn't immediately have been blown up by two assassins and a marksman.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20152 votes

Look you like the tank meta and are biased towards it, so you remember it more favorable. I didn't like the tank meta am biased against it and don't remember it that well. So this whole back and forth about what was working and what wasn't isn't gonna go anywhere.

All I have ever been saying is that the meta was no more healthy or even all that different from any other meta we have had before.

Consider this, if the meta was as good for the game as you say it was they why did Riot do away with it. Why did the balance team nerf all the items and champions that benefited from the meta. Why did they imposed changes in gameplay that was meant to steer away from the type of game play that was successful in the tank meta. If it were truly that healthy than it would still be here, but they obviously didn't think that was the case and that's why its gone.

So again it was no healthier than any other meta and those in hear claiming it was are just biased towards that meta because champions they like were favored by it.

RetroRage96Nov 13, 20154 votes

Do I really need to answer this?

The game got boring. Plays weren't happening as quickly. Fights lasted longer, pentakills were less common. Less money came in.

HalcyonDwellerNov 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Plays were more exciting in and the game play was faster during both assassin meta's we went through but Riot did away with both of those as well. What else you got?

Dude, take a chill pill. Everything you've said here has been arguing to 'win' an argument and treat others like they're stupid for having any opinion different from your own. We've all got opinions, and nobody's opinion is any less valid just for not being the same as yours.

"What else you got?" ....Really? it's not about ammunition that can be fired at one another. It's about healthy discussion.

The point of the forums is for healthy discussions, not for egotistical jerks to whip out their rhetorical dick and wave it in people's faces.

EDIT for clarification: This was directed at YCitizenSnipsY. Apparently when you reply to someone this far into a thread chain it just puts your reply in the last valid parent thread.

LankPantsNov 13, 201516 votes

Consider this, if the meta was as good for the game as you say it was they why did Riot do away with it.

Because Sej and Gragas don't make #LC$BIGPLAYS like their boy Lee Sin does.

What, you thought the game was actually balanced in any sane or logical way?

KeevalroyNov 13, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Because Sej and Gragas don't make #LC$BIGPLAYS like their boy Lee Sin does.

What, you though the game was actually balanced in any sane or logical way?

Reddit and the balance team couldn't furiously beat off to the plays tanks were making, or in their eyes, weren't making. Its kind of why flashy bullshitters were buffed at the same time tanks got nerfed yet again conveniently as Worlds was about to start...huh, that's a little suspicious ain't it?

But what do I know, I'm just a conspiracy theorist. :)

Daedalus871Nov 13, 201513 votes

I'm going to disagree with you.

While some picks were better than others, the playing field was much more even. Pretty much any ADC/Mage/Tank/Bruiser could be played and feel reasonably well. Really, the only people who felt out of place were the assassins who could only play like assassinis. But then, pure assassins have never really felt like they were in a healthy place.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20152 votes

Cant say I agree. Tanks did brusiers jobs at being tanky and dealing damage. Only ADC's that were OP at the time could actually do anything in that meta. Mid lane was noting but utility mages. All other off meta picks were doing no better in that meta then any other meta.

AMYS GRAVENov 13, 201512 votes

Mid lane was noting but utility mages.

Chogath tell me Urgot more about Ahri how utility midlaners were Ezreal so dominant KogMaw

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20154 votes

None of these champions other than Ahir saw play during the tank meta. Kog maw and EZ were after it and Sho gath and Urgot were before. Brand hasn't ever been meta.

LankPantsNov 13, 201515 votes

Cho and Urgot were top tier picks at that time.

Can't say I agree with Ez and Brand at all, Kog saw some picks during that time but wan't dominant.

There were picks like Varus and Jayce though, who were quite strong at that point in time.

Daedalus871Nov 13, 20157 votes

I disagree with your nonagreement. While tanks did well, bruisers also did well. Rek'Sai and Lee Sin were still good picks. I felt like I could pick any ADC and still do well, and the same with any nonassassin midlaner.

You say that the off meta picks weren't doing any better than the meta ones, can you show anything to back it up?

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20152 votes

Rek'sai and Lee sin were good picks when they were built full tank They had to conform to the meta to keep up and were still only picked if Gragas or Sejuani was banned.

How do i prove that Meta picks were doing better than non meta picks? Because they were meta. There is a reason every one was picking Gragas and Sejuani during the tank meta and not Kha'zix or Elsie. There is a reason Utility mages like Orianna, Viktor, and Lulu were being picked mid instead of something like Swain or Vel'koz. What ever champ was good during the scale up late game initiate with tank and crush 5v5 strategy that was the tank meta were priority picks.

What proof do you have that there was a wider variety of picks during the tank meta, see I can do it too.

Daedalus871Nov 13, 20155 votes

Apologies, I poorly phrased the question.

What proof is there that the off-meta picks were doing relatively worse than the meta picks in the tank meta compared to other metas?

To answer your question, there's this thing called wisdom of the crowd where a large group of people are more accurate than a small one. If you were to poll a large group of LoL players, you would get that the tank meta was the best.

AMYS GRAVENov 13, 201511 votes

The tank meta saw a wider variety of champion picks and bans than we had seen in the 3 previous seasons. Sejuani, Amumu, and Gragas were too strong. That was really it.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20153 votes

Some how I don't think you have the numbers to prove that and are just saying that because you like that meta.

AMYS GRAVENov 13, 201510 votes

No it wasn't, there were still tier 1 picks in every role and unviable picks in every role. There was still overpowered items and worthless items. There was still a lack of diversity. There were still team comps and strategies that were almost mandatory.

Like you have the numbers to back up this? I really don't think you do. It would take quite a bit of effort to find data going back that far.

SolumindraNov 13, 20152 votes

Arguable, I think Assassin meta is healthiest. And that is even as an ADC main. You can rotate, and use tanks to deal with assassin meta....

Season 2 was for my money, the most balanced season.

Tank meta is a bore fest where games get drawn out for no reason because it took 3 guys to kill the cinderhulk sej....

IncognonymousNov 13, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Arguable, I think Assassin meta is healthiest. And that is even as an ADC main. You can rotate, and use tanks to deal with assassin meta....

Season 2 was for my money, the most balanced season.

Tank meta is a bore fest where games get drawn out for no reason because it took 3 guys to kill the cinderhulk sej....

Sej was an outlier. And I remember the Assassin meta. As I recall, assassins were indiscriminately able to eliminate tanks as well. That's.... not healthy.

KeevalroyNov 13, 201545 votes

I hesitated to put my trust in the balance team during the Cinderhulk meta. Here we have the healthiest meta we've had in years, the playerbase is largely happy or otherwise content with it, we had the most viable champions at the same time excluding the outliers of Grag and Sej, but even they could have been hotfixed quickly without stomping all over tanks AND their item.

I hesitated because I knew their balance tendencies and I knew their history of hypocrisy and unfair changes. I knew damn well that this was too good to be true and they would destroy this masterpiece when the LCS was deemed "boring." Sure enough, despite the game being in a near perfect (or acceptable) state of balance, they all banded together and took a collective shit onto the healthy and balanced game it took years for them to reach.

You were so close, and not only did you blow it, you believed and insisted to the playerbase that you did the right thing. Job well done.

High5Nov 13, 20153 votes

Wish I could upvote this 10 times. Well said.

AMYS GRAVENov 13, 20153 votes

This guy knows whats up.

YCitizenSnipsYNov 13, 20152 votes

If Riot got rid of the Tank meta because it was boring, and only balance around what is entertaining to the LCS, then why did they do away with not one but two assassin meta's since season 3?

KeevalroyNov 13, 201512 votes

You're a persistent one aren't you?

The reason they got rid of them was because everyone played people that blew the other up, which wasn't that entertaining. Now, they create flashy plays yes, but when you think of exciting points during a pro game, you probably think of teamfights or skirmishes right? They weren't happening as often as Riot wanted because it would just be guys getting picked off one at a time and being forced to back away from a 4v5. Additionally, whoever had the stronger assassin controlled the game. Stomps happened, and it was just a situation of waiting for the other team to win, which wasn't appealing after you saw who the winner was going to be.

Room for more teamfights could have been made and were, although the way they went about that was shady, but that's another topic entirely.

ZT XperimentorNov 13, 201521 votes

Been saying it for years; tank meta was the most enjoyable. Assassin & carry metas deny gameplay too easily, and now it's borderline unplayable.

MagearnaNov 13, 20153 votes

It really was the most enjoyable now that I think about it. I had the most fun this season and I feel like I finally found my niche as a player. Season 6 is gonna be...interesting.

BakedLotionNov 13, 201518 votes

Lol the tank meta was the one time I didn't have to think twice about joining a game. Now I regret joining any game at all.

KeevalroyNov 13, 201517 votes

Release Cinderhulk was overpowered, let's be real here, but once it got hit, everything was great. The problem was they kept hitting it over and over and then hit the people who used it. I used to come home thinking oh boy I can't wait to play before Riot ruins everything! It was fun while it lasted - and before someone says I only enjoyed it because I used it, sure I did when i jungled, but I'm an ADC main and had no issues with the meta. I felt so safe behind this big meatwall, and occasionally, I died to an assassin that slipped through.

You know what? I didn't mind...looking back anyway...because that's what an assassin does. They slip through defenses and take out their target, and if you blindly rushed in 1v5 to burst someone, first of all you're an idiot, and second, you just gave us another kill for free. You were punished for not thinking, and not playing your class to do its job.

Now? Doesn't matter. Tanks don't exist, positioning means nothing, there's no point in having roles in a teamfight because entire teams vaporize in 2 seconds. Fun stuff.

TigerMama GemgemNov 13, 20154 votes

"Vaporize in 2 seconds." I read through all the patch notes the day before it was released. Took me over an hour, since I analyzed it. Looked like marksmen were going to become overbearing. Some of the changes looked fun. Didn't think much of the AP changes. Masteries looked like trash. Figured I'd at least play with an open mind. Went mid as Brand vs. Ahri. Ended up stalemating. Quinn enemy top getting fed, quinn ally bot feeding. Enemy Quinn ganks, and despite the ward being there, 700+ movespeed.. yeah. Death timer says I died in 4 seconds. 10 minutes later and 4 more deaths later, team is pushed to nexus turrets, each death slowly getting faster, despite building mage hp items (like normal on brand). Last death I get a post mortem kill, but it doesn't matter because dying in 1.81 seconds sure is fun, despite dodging all forms of cc and skillshots. Rest of the team dies within the next 4 seconds. The nexus turrets last 1 second longer than that... The nexus lasts just as long. Ever since, I've realized all games are like that. Don't feed or get fed, doesn't matter. Game is over in 25 minutes or less.

KoKobotoNov 13, 201510 votes

I havn't had any OOHHHHH SHIETTTTT moments like I have had in the "tank-meta" cause all I expect is people 100-0 everyone everywhere NOT fun.... or exciting or strategically demanding....

It reminds me of how Rioters often referred to top lane brawls as "wet noodle" fights ignorantly. As unlike "bot lane fights" where its just "Get Killed or Don't get Killed" top lane fights demands a lot more strategically as you have to think steps on advance, minions, jungler, teleport, cooldowns, positioning, experience, purchases.

KeevalroyNov 13, 20156 votes

I liked the wet noodle fights, even when I participated. Watching Sion vs Nautilus was the most hilarious thing I've seen in a top lane matchup as well. Both of them were laughing, both teams were laughing. We started cheering like they were boxers in all chat. And now it's gone, and Riot has no desire to have it return.

Phuc Dat BichNov 13, 20154 votes

Tank meta? you mean the 1 patch of item 1413 yeah that not really "meta" True Tanks was never good

even when this item was good the only "Tanks" that were strong was gragas and hecarim

The real tanks (Malphite/Mundo/Rammus/etc) they were out of the picture as they are since season 2 now...

TheSlogsNov 13, 201528 votes

Did you play last season at all? "The real tanks" I'm sorry that your three prime examples of tanks are flawed in their design so that they can never be good. How about you look at how much play Alistar Braum Gragas Maokai Nautilus RekSai Sejuani Shen Thresh saw last season. Also how every single champion in the game had 2 or 3 defensive items, even AD carries with item 3155 and item 3140 . And AP carries had defense in almost all of the items they had. I'm sorry but what about that doesn't say tank meta to you?

Phuc Dat BichNov 13, 20151 votes

[deleted]

TheSlogsNov 13, 201528 votes

This just in!

By being in bottom lane and tank ing for a carry in the laning phase, you are no longer a tank!

Pros are actually in silver because they would go tank rek'sai!

Pro games don't actually count towards the amount of high level games shen was in!

Thresh is not a tank!

Almost the entirety of season 5 was 2 weeks!

Nautilus was no longer a tank because he was doing the exact same thing but in bottom lane instead!

I have a brain made of metal, and buying a tank item doesn't make you tankier!

RalanrNov 13, 20152 votes

To be fair, Thresh is a fighter support.

He just gets really fucking tanky with all the souls.

doombotMECHANov 13, 201511 votes

thresh gets way too much free stuff.

Woodsy2575Nov 13, 20151 votes

I like a game where you can't make massive mistakes, the cream really rises to the top this way

TheSlogsNov 13, 201525 votes

Then maybe go play some game that takes like 5 minutes because I don't think people want to sit in 20-30 minute games where they were decided by that single bad decision/outplay that happened before 10 minutes.

Specter027Nov 13, 201510 votes

Are you kidding me?

Based on matchup or having a cautious opponent, your carries, even you yourself, might be stuck just farming while an enemy in another lane just destroys that lane before 6 minutes and takes tower before 9, snowballing out of control and proceeding to run around the map railroading your entire team.

They put in a bunch of comeback mechanics last year, this year they seem to be removing them - also nerfing teleport so you get less chance to make a cross map impact (though this summoner spell did need to be looked at do to its ubiquitousness and oppression it seemed to bring to botlane.)

There are games where I don't get a chance to do anything because botlane gave up a double kill at 4 minutes, there have been games where I get first blood on a carry jungle vs an enemy solo laner and it's GG from then on out. This snowball shit doesn't let the cream rise, it makes the game more random based on funky matchmaking and 'skill' is based on pick/ban, early game execution and exploiting matchups with hard counterpicks.