@Riot, what is your vision for the support role?

Ghiefelstein··4 votes·679 views

Over the past year not much has happened for the support role. Every once in a while a top tier support gets a small nerf, but that's it. The most exciting thing were the Soraka and Sona reworks. And honestly that is enough to keep the role reasonably balanced. We see variety, most champions have their own niche and no champion is completely dominating everyone else.

However, there are some longstanding issues you still need to adress. Could you tell us your vision for the following things?

  1. Balancing champions for support and solo lanes. It went wrong with Lulu, so what have you learned from that?

  2. Utility scaling. Are these ratio's still in a good place? I doubt the values from the start of season 3 are still the ideal values today. Is utility scaling working as intended?

  3. Power level. How strong is a support supposed to be relative to other roles? I feel like the support role became weaker over the past year. There were way more nerfs than buffs.

35 Comments

IcyPepper2 votes

In my honest opinion, supports are weak by the numbers only, but their utility and strategic value is high. In solo queue, people complain that you can't carry as a support, but supports are designed to turn the tide. A well-timed Soraka ult can change the trade in top lane, or a Braum ult can completely disrupt a team fight.

And that's not even getting into combos. A Master Yi ult + Lulu's ult = increased movement speed, extra health, AND an aoe slow (a randuin's passive!). First time I did it resulted in a pentakill for the Master Yi, and uber credit from my team.

Supports can do more than you think. I denied a Karthus ult by timing a Sona heal/shield and saved my carry by about 10 health. A Nami ult is ridiculous, and a Janna can make your adc win trades early game like nobody's business, and make the lane completely ungankable.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

The sad thing is that all the supports you named were nerfed over the past year. They also specifically hit their utility, so they are not as strong as they used to be. I believe supports should be closer to the power level of last year, but I would like to know what Riot thinks.

IcyPepper1 votes

I agree. I don't underestimate their power, so I try to stay hopeful, but sometimes I do feel like certain champions are favored over others.

Like how LeeSin was said to be looked at in the PBE, only for the next patch to have yet another Sona nerf. It seems rather biased.

Pika3101 votes

It seems rather biased.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck...

Riot's rework and balance teams have been making biasedly prejudiced changes near every patch for well over the past half-year. Each new patch cycle proves this further, to the point where now I fear the next new patch, knowing that whatever changes they make will be more unhealthy for the game than the previous.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

The biggest issue I have with this is that almost everything you say relies on other people doing the lion's share of the work. An ADC needs to know when to make trades in order to benefit from a Janna shield. Yi needs to be doing decently well (and not be a derp) when you use your Lulu ult on him. With both Nami and Braum, your teammates need to follow up on your stellar initiation or run away from your disengage.

Yes, support is an extremely fun and rewarding role when you're doing well AND your teammates are decent. It's difficult to enable someone who's disabling themselves and all that utility power you provide means nothing if your teammates do nothing to take advantage of it.

To put it another way, a good support play enables your teammates to make plays and makes their plays more effective. You're an amplifier for the team. If there's nothing there to amplify, it doesn't really matter how effective you are. Why play support and serve as a potential amplifier when you could play another position and add to the base team value every time?

IcyPepper1 votes

It's a team game, so it's inevitable there's going to be one player who sacrifices personal power to support their team. In TF2, you got the medic. In almost every RPG, you have some sort of healer or buff/debuff strategist.

Many supports CAN do things themselves (Morgana mid comes to mind), but their power is best when used to help the team rather than themselves.

Why play support and serve as a potential amplifier when you could play another position and add to the base team value every time?

Because at higher tiers of play, the game can be decided by teamwork rather than just damage. Two adc's, for example, might deal more damage in a teamfight, but the teamfights themselves will be more difficult if the enemy team has a support with high utility.

In solo queue, people don't always want to support, but it's hard to deny that it's a vital role for almost any team.

Adrian Umbra1 votes

And while I know damn well the impact of a good support (having mained support during S2 and played it on and off throughout S3 and S4, plus played several supports outside of bot lane), it's not at all satisfying to be having a great game and still providing very little impact to the game because you're so team reliant. I have no problems supporting in a group of friends for example, because I can communicate with them, I trust them to do well, and I can at least joke with them and have fun if everyone else is behind. I don't have those luxuries in YOLO queue, thus I don't play support there if I can at all help it.

Also, in higher tiers of play the "base value" of the team is going to be higher, thus a good support's "multiplier effect" will be more impactful. I'm pretty sure that if I were diamond level, I'd have a lot fewer problems with playing support simply because my teammates will be consistently better and I'd be able to assist them more effectively rather than having to basically force a feeding tube down my ADC's throat.

IcyPepper2 votes

I'm pretty sure that if I were diamond level, I'd have a lot fewer problems with playing support simply because my teammates will be consistently better and I'd be able to assist them more effectively

I've seen Diamonds take supports into the jungle in ranked games to win, solely for this reason. You're definitely not wrong there.

I know how you feel, I've been there with supporting. It's the main reason I switched to jungling, since I have the power to basically do the same thing (get carries fed) but with the power of choice (aka: gank the lane without the ass).

Teridax682 votes

These are all really important questions for the support role. I'm no Rioter, but here's my opinion on this:

{quoted}

Balancing champions for support and solo lanes. It went wrong with Lulu, so what have you learned from that?

I think the Lulu and pre-rework Soraka issues are more of a symptom than the actual problem: the core issue with Lulu, along with a lot of older supports, is that she wasn't designed with healthy mechanics in the first place. A lot of older support design was pretty short-sighted in that supports were only designed around helping their allies, and not specifically around interacting one-on-one with their opponents in a healthy way. Even Lulu, who was designed to potentially play as a solo laner, was still designed mainly with duo laning in mind.

While a lot of supports have now transitioned pretty well (Soraka's in a great spot following her rework, Janna 's constant tweaks made her a lot more balanceable overall, Sona is still extremely strong, despite her nerfs, and has much more interesting gameplay to her auras, Nami 's been discreetly awesome the whole time), there are still champions that are going to need more than just balance changes. Lulu probably needs just a small change to her E to be healthy (it's the source of her problematic laning patterns), but Taric on the other hand needs much deeper changes, since a lot of his core features are also major design flaws. Ideally, this means Lulu will end up being a great solo laner as well as an amazing support, since most of her solo lane gameplay is actually pretty good.

{quoted}

Utility scaling. Are these ratio's still in a good place? I doubt the values from the start of season 3 are still the ideal values today. Is utility scaling working as intended?

I think Riot's been really conservative with utility ratios, and I think they could afford to make some supports scale better with AP. Right now, we're in a situation where most caster supports do well with a bit of AP, but going full AP is still not as good as it could be (Sona's a big exception, as her AP scalings are amazing). Soraka, for example, does fine with a support build and a bit of AP, but past a certain point scales really poorly with the stat. Bard is a bit like Thresh in that he scales mostly through his own mechanics (his chimes) and not through items, and supports like Alistar and Blitzcrank are designed in such a way that they can't really scale in their core contributions at all. I don't think we're yet in a situation where supports can hope to go full AP and massively scale in their utility, but ideally any caster support going full AP should feel powerful yet always able to be outplayed, just as any mage should be expected to deal massive burst but still be able to be dealt with. If a support isn't meant to scale with AP (Alistar is one example), then they should be able to scale well with other stats besides cooldown reduction.

{quoted}

Power level. How strong is a support supposed to be relative to other roles? I feel like the support role became weaker over the past year. There were way more nerfs than buffs.

I think there have been a lot of nerfs to supports who were just too good overall, namely Sona and Janna. Overall, though, I think supports as a class haven't decreased in power, though I'd like the role to be expanded a lot more. Right now, supports are constrained to a tiny gold flow, which not only means they can't reasonably afford to build anything other than support items, but also means that support items themselves mostly end up being really slot inefficient due to being constrained by their cheapness. It would be nice if supports had the same amount of gold as everyone else, and weren't constrained to just helping the marksman during the laning phase (Bard could be a step towards more position-versatile supports), but I think there are a lot of laning and class dynamics that need to be adjusted in order for that to be possible (2v1 lanes need to be enjoyable and fair for everyone involved, basically).

Ghiefelstein2 votes

Thank you, this was the kind of insight I was looking for.

Yandere Carry2 votes

funny thing is the utility scaling.... like.. who really buys the stuff needed to up their ratios? aren't they too busy buying support items? .__.

thinking man2 votes

Because the S4 support buffs weren't enough?

Ghiefelstein1 votes

Isn't it strange that Riot has not evaluated the support role after the start of S4? Riot has shown no vision for an entire season, so I thought it would be appropriate to ask what their long term plans are.

thinking man1 votes

{quoted}

Isn't it strange that Riot has not evaluated the support role after the start of S4? Riot has shown no vision for an entire season, so I thought it would be appropriate to ask what their long term plans are.

Riot also hasn't changed top lane or ADC for that entire time.

also in regards to the OP, I forgot to say that for point #3 for power level, supports should have a lower power level because they spend gold towards utility items.

Teridax681 votes

I think they haven't done anything so far because they're satisfied with the role overall, at least for the time being. There's a lot more that could be done, but I think the biggest constraint to the support role right now (also junglers, to some extent) is the laning phase's structure: any multi-champion lane other than bot lane tends to be seriously unpleasant and actively discouraged, which completely ties supports down and also seriously impacts lots of other factors (their gold income and items, for example). If there were mechanisms in place to make 2v1 or otherwise unbalanced lanes fair and enjoyable for everyone involved, supports would end up having many more options.

Ideally, laning should be balanced in such a way that any duo lane (maybe even a trilane, quad lane or penta lane), even one not involving a support, would dynamically adjust to provide a fair and fun experience for everyone, which would imply giving some kind of power or options to outnumbered players, but also likely a way for everyone involved to have decent gold income, since adding more players to the same lane would no longer be problematic. In this framework, supports would be able to thrive on the same gold income as other champions (junglers could also afford to finally have the same experience and gold gains as everyone else, since their ganking power comes from briefly turning lanes into 2v1s or 3v2s), which would then allow them to have unrestricted access to items, and would also allow support items to be more efficient, though costlier. Obviously, though, this would require a structural overhaul on the same level as this season's map changes, and since Riot's still fine-tuning those changes we might have a long ways to go before they tackle issues on this level. Right now, Riot's doing the best they can with the framework they have, and I think Bard is going to be a huge step forward for supports in terms of how much freedom they get, but in order to tackle the more fundamental issues with the class they're going to need a lot more time and manpower to change the game's core mechanics (supports aren't the only class with issues. Bruisers and marksmen also have a lot of problems that require some kind of an overhaul).

Pika3101 votes

You mean when they nerfed the ratios on every champ Riot wanted pigeonholed into the support role and then introduced items that allowed non-supports like Annie and Morg to overtake the role?

In one single move, Riot enforced the meta onto a specific group of champions, then made it more difficult for them to even compete amongst that meta that was forced on them.

thinking man2 votes

{quoted}

You mean when they nerfed the ratios on every champ Riot wanted pigeonholed into the support role and then introduced items that allowed non-supports like Annie and Morg to overtake the role?

In one single move, Riot enforced the meta onto a specific group of champions, then made it more difficult for them to even compete amongst that meta that was forced on them.

Supports need to be pigeonholed to be healthy for the game because 90% of their kits are cancer in solo lanes/jungle.

As for Annie/Morg, they should just keep hitting them, but supports as a role have it very easy.

Pika3101 votes

So you're saying more Lulu nerfs are incoming? Cause she's still being played fairly consistently in top/mid lane. I'm definitely not looking forward to that.

Rather than backpedaling on their own personal principles that they would not enforce the meta, Riot should look for a way to make supports a healthier class, rather than one that sees repeated unjustifiable nerfs that only leads to the introduction and dominance of non-supports into the support role.

thinking man2 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying more Lulu nerfs are incoming? Cause she's still being played fairly consistently in top/mid lane. I'm definitely not looking forward to that.

Rather than backpedaling on their own personal principles that they would not enforce the meta, Riot should look for a way to make supports a healthier class, rather than one that sees repeated unjustifiable nerfs that only leads to the introduction and dominance of non-supports into the support role.

She will never be buffed as a support until they eliminate her from solo lanes.

Also support nerfs are all justified generally.

The lack of nerfs to mage supports that never originated in bot lane isn't.

Pika3101 votes

So champions are allowed to be played and supported in whatever way the community chooses, so long as they weren't originally meant to be a support?

Vi, a top-laner, is allowed to jungle. Yasuo, a light-weight fighter, is allowed to assassinate. ...and like you said, Morg and Annie, mages, are allowed to support.

That's called a double-standard. It's a form of prejudice.

Pika3102 votes

The most exciting thing were the Soraka and Sona reworks.

"Rework" is Riot's codename for "complete gutting." If by "exciting" you mean "completely devastating and infuriating," then I agree completely.

Teridax682 votes

Is it me, or did a bunch of people downvote literally every post in this thread?

Ghiefelstein1 votes

Yep. Kinda sad, because there were some well written posts in this thread. I guess some people don't want discussion about supports. If only I knew how to make a thread that gets upvotes...

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

there is not that much variety: there are all-in and anti-CC or disengage supports, but there are ZERO poke-sustain supports (Sona, Soraka, Zyra, Karma are nowhere to be seen)

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Really? Karma and Zyra are my main support champs. True, I haven't seen another of either in probably three months, but poke-shield lanes do exist and have the potential to be very good. They just aren't as flashy as the displace (Thresh), all-in (Leona) or disengage (Janna) lanes.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I'm still salty about the Lulu thing. If you read the patch notes, they said "we know this isn't a good situation" but they haven't lifted a finger to help support Lulu in forever.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

Do you have any ideas to help support Lulu? I would be very interested in hearing them.

Personally I think offensive E should be reworked. Remove damage and give it some form of utility.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

The problem with offensive E isn't the damage. It's the reliability of landing the followup Q on the E'd target. Q is designed to be a skillshot, not targeted harass. I think the necessary rework here is Q mechanics. Two ideas here:

  • Give Pix a small windup on Q, where he stands still for 0.25-0.5 seconds before launching it. The intended result here is that the target can juke Pix's shot if they're moving in the right direction and you didn't shoot that way. Concretely, if you Pixed from the east, and shoot Q due west, enemy moving E or W gets hit, but enemy moving N or S is missed.
  • Give Q the Zed treatment. Reduce damage by 25% ish, but add "striking an enemy with both Qs deals +50% damage and restores some mana".

That said, my main thought on improving support Lulu is indeed that ally E is pretty lame. In particular, I would like putting Pix passive on the ADC to be a more clear win in the laning phase; as it stands today, you are losing about as much damage from your autos as you are putting into their autos. I'm thinking things like:

  • While an ally champion has Pix, the effect of your passive is doubled.
  • While an ally champion has Pix, their basic attacks reduce the damage done by the target by X% for 2 seconds.
  • While an ally champion has Pix, their basic attacks debuff their targets with Unstable Magic for a few seconds. If that target is damaged by your Glitterlance, Unstable Magic is consumed, rooting the target for 2 seconds.
  • While an ally champion has Pix, their basic attacks debuff their targets with Unstable Magic for a few seconds. If a target is affected by any of your spells, Unstable Magic is consumed, dealing magic damage based on level.

Basically, we need a mechanic that makes support Lulu think shielding her ally is a Really Good Idea, and enemy E is only a last resort sort of thing. The kit plays much better if enemy E is a niche button for long range Q enabling or vision marking.

Ghiefelstein1 votes

Basically, we need a mechanic that makes support Lulu think shielding her ally is a Really Good Idea, and enemy E is only a last resort sort of thing. The kit plays much better if enemy E is a niche button for long range Q enabling or vision marking.

Interesting, as support Lulu I already thought shielding her ally is a Really Good Idea compared to offensive E. Numerically the shield is superior in every way.

Shield Strength: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+ 60% AP) + 6 seconds pix damage for ally Magic Damage: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 40% AP) + 4 seconds reveal

The only time I use enemy E is when none of my allies are taking damage (chasing), or when I really need a long range Q or a reveal. Ideally, I would give Lulu a meaningful choice for E. Make her think about how she uses it. That gives opponents something to punish if she makes the wrong decision.

The problem with offensive E isn't the damage. It's the reliability of landing the followup Q on the E'd target. Q is designed to be a skillshot, not targeted harass.

There is a trade-off in using E to increase the reliability of Q. You pay 60-100 mana and don't get to shield. If E did no damage, I doubt solo lane Lulu would still EQ often. Compensate with some niche form of utility (you gave a few nice examples) and you shift power to supporting again.

The most frustrating part for me is that Riot know they messed up support Lulu. They just apologized, said they would look into it and then went completely silent. I hope they find some time for her in season 5.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Interesting, as support Lulu I already thought shielding her ally is a Really Good Idea compared to offensive E.

Support Lulu currently is most efficient by aggressively using EQ for poke. Typically you want to E their support, then Q through the support to the carry. If you get into a fight, Eing your carry is a good idea, but Lulu lanes don't actually want to fight today.

Ideally, I would give Lulu a meaningful choice for E. Make her think about how she uses it.

Agreed, this is the design goal. The interesting thing about Lulu is the ally/enemy effects of her spells, creating decision points and opportunities to demonstrate skill.

There is a trade-off in using E to increase the reliability of Q. You pay 60-100 mana and don't get to shield. If E did no damage, I doubt solo lane Lulu would still EQ often.

Solo lane Lulu wouldn't exist after such a change.

The most frustrating part for me is that Riot know they messed up support Lulu. They just apologized, said they would look into it and then went completely silent. I hope they find some time for her in season 5.

Yup.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with offensive E isn't the damage. It's the reliability of landing the followup Q on the E'd target. Q is designed to be a skillshot, not targeted harass. I think the necessary rework here is Q mechanics. Two ideas here:

  • Give Pix a small windup on Q, where he stands still for 0.25-0.5 seconds before launching it. The intended result here is that the target can juke Pix's shot if they're moving in the right direction and you didn't shoot that way. Concretely, if you Pixed from the east, and shoot Q due west, enemy moving E or W gets hit, but enemy moving N or S is missed.
  • Give Q the Zed treatment. Reduce damage by 25% ish, but add "striking an enemy with both Qs deals +50% damage and restores some mana".

That said, my main thought on improving support Lulu is indeed that ally E is pretty lame. In particular, I would like putting Pix passive on the ADC to be a more clear win in the laning phase; as it stands today, you are losing about as much damage from your autos as you are putting into their autos. I'm thinking things like:

  • While an ally champion has Pix, the effect of your passive is doubled.
  • While an ally champion has Pix, their basic attacks reduce the damage done by the target by X% for 2 seconds.
  • While an ally champion has Pix, their basic attacks debuff their targets with Unstable Magic for a few seconds. If that target is damaged by your Glitterlance, Unstable Magic is consumed, rooting the target for 2 seconds.
  • While an ally champion has Pix, their basic attacks debuff their targets with Unstable Magic for a few seconds. If a target is affected by any of your spells, Unstable Magic is consumed, dealing magic damage based on level.

Basically, we need a mechanic that makes support Lulu think shielding her ally is a Really Good Idea, and enemy E is only a last resort sort of thing. The kit plays much better if enemy E is a niche button for long range Q enabling or vision marking.

except that you can still miss your Q even if you land your E, it happens since Pix doesn't necessarily always points towards the enemy champion it just hit. Lulu is a support that has the ability to use her spells in either a defensive manner or offensive way. Adding stuff to her E isn't going to make it be "you better use E only on your allies" as long as it deals damage Lulu will use it to deal damage unless it's in a teamfight where most will use it on their teammates (unless it's mid/top Lulu which may or may not do it)

SmokingPuffin1 votes

except that you can still miss your Q even if you land your E, it happens since Pix doesn't necessarily always points towards the enemy champion it just hit.

EQ is very reliable if done correctly. It's as close to a guaranteed skillshot as the game offers.

Adding stuff to her E isn't going to make it be "you better use E only on your allies"

This is not my goal.

To be clear, I want ally/enemy E to be a decision point for Lulu in whatever role. There should be reasons to use both, but I believe support Lulu should be more inclined to use defensive E, and solo lane Lulu should be more inclined to use offensive E. Currently, correct play of both flavors of Lulu use offensive E almost all the time.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

EQ is very reliable if done correctly. It's as close to a guaranteed skillshot as the game offers.

This is not my goal.

To be clear, I want ally/enemy E to be a decision point for Lulu in whatever role. There should be reasons to use both, but I believe support Lulu should be more inclined to use defensive E, and solo lane Lulu should be more inclined to use offensive E. Currently, correct play of both flavors of Lulu use offensive E almost all the time.

then you are playing with/against bad Lulus. Lulu doesn't need to give her teammates shields unless they are going to engage or are being engaged upon. Most Lulus already shield their allies during teamfights since it's not only helps the team but it's safer to her. She will use her E in an offensive manner if she is looking to poke the opponent, adding random stuff to her E isn't going to change that. The only thing i would change to her E is to have Pix actually take into account Lulu's AP when used on an ally since currently it's not, it's taking into consideration the AP of the ally he is with

SmokingPuffin1 votes

then you are playing with/against bad Lulus.

I won't claim my understanding is perfect, but Lulu is one of my favorite champions. I play her at a diamond level in both solo and support flavors and I am well studied in the patterns of pro play as well.

Lulu doesn't need to give her teammates shields unless they are going to engage or are being engaged upon...She will use her E in an offensive manner if she is looking to poke the opponent

Certainly true.

adding random stuff to her E isn't going to change that.

However, this part isn't so true. An ally E buff can create new play patterns for Lulu. In particular, live Lulu is all about poking. An ally E buff can make her consider trading play patterns alongside those poke patterns.

Compare the Sona W rework. Old Sona used W for sustain -- it was at it's best keeping allies topped off. New Sona uses W for trading -- it's at its best when everyone is kinda low and expects to take more damage in the near future.

Most Lulus already shield their allies during teamfights since it's not only helps the team but it's safer to her.

Solo lane Lulu has little care for safety. She's quite durable and not a priority target. She uses offensive E very commonly, because she's often the initiator with her amazing speed buff and slow reach. There are times when using E defensively is good here.

Support Lulu maxes E last and has little AP. Whether she shields or damages with E is not super relevant. With the kit as it is, she should use E on whatever target lets her Q with maximum efficiency; usually this is the Q target, but sometimes it's more effective to E a nearby ally the Q target wants to engage.

The only thing i would change to her E is to have Pix actually take into account Lulu's AP when used on an ally since currently it's not, it's taking into consideration the AP of the ally he is with

This is a possible thing to add to the list of ally E buffs. Certainly this is a weird mechanic on live, and borderline feels like a bug. I'm not convinced it's the best one, because support Lulu doesn't build much AP.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I honestly think the support role is in a great place. There are several different strategies -- you've got your sustain lanes (Soraka and Sona), your poke lanes (Karma, Zyra, also Sona a bit), your initiate/hook lanes (Thresh, Blitz, Leona), your kill lanes (Annie, Vel'Koz), and disengage/peel lanes (Janna, Fiddles).

  1. Balancing. Riot sucks at this. They have not figured out how to balance champions for both support and solo lane (Zyra and Lulu are two of the most egregious examples). To be fair, I'm not sure that there is an easy way to do it. Solo lanes are generally balanced around damage, while supports are balanced around utility. When a champion offers way too much damage AND utility (old Lulu) they crowd out other solo laners.

  2. Utility scaling should be looked into but I think these are fine on the whole. It's nice to have at least some incentive to build something other than just auras and CDR.

  3. Supports aren't powerful, but that's how it should be. Supports are useful. And that usefulness can change games. A well-landed Sona ult can change a teamfight, a well-timed Soraka ult can negate a Karthus ult... and so on.

They ward, they heal, they shield, they poke. Most importantly, they ward. And honestly I cannot thank Riot enough for the warding changes they implemented -- cutting back wards per person to 3 green + 1 pink, adding sightstone to the game, adding trinkets and sweepers. I don't know if you played back in Season 1 or 2, but support was **incredibly **boring. Your job was to sit in lane, buying wards every time you went back... to grab a gp5 item or three, and just be an ward-dispensing aura bot. The new gp5 items are good but not perfect (item 3301 is way too weak compared to the others)... and they reward you for poking or last-hitting an occasional minion.

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