Ok at first it was fun now it's disgusting.

dominusx·Dec 19, 2016·103 votes·5,729 views

I dont mind supports having new items etc etc but when the enemy carry gets a 800hp shield instantly and heals with redemption its cancer af.

108 Comments

BisaknospDec 19, 201625 votes

play support and carry your team then (:

Zen InethDec 19, 201623 votes

I, as a previous support main, enjoy this itemisation, especially when I get autofilled into Support. Why? Because before, it didn't feel like you could make much of an impact on the fight unless you used all of your kit properly. Now, you get items to offset what you don't have.

RalanrDec 19, 201629 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zen Ineth,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lpeHy0fK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-19T14:58:48.806+0000)

I, as a previous support main, enjoy this itemisation, especially when I get autofilled into Support. Why? Because before, it didn't feel like you could make much of an impact on the fight unless you used all of your kit properly. Now, you get items to offset what you don't have.

So...what's the point of support diversity then?

Zen InethDec 19, 201626 votes

Okay, what's the point of ADC diversity, then, if everyone benefits from Lifesteal, but doesn't have it innately?

My point is that supports have more to work with now. What, do you want them to suffer on the sidelines, having no damage due to meagre and shitty itemisation, or do you want them to feel like they're influencing a fight with great items that have a noticeable impact on a fight's outcome?

ZerenzaDec 19, 201618 votes

Yeah, it's fine for them to have itemization but when one class is becoming broken because of them(ADC's) and another is become unplayable because of them(Assassins). There's something wrong, basically all redemption is for example is massive summoner spell for the entire team in the middle of a fight. What's dynamic about that, your just a heal bot, i could literally care less who my support is as long as they get the items, the items are literally more important than the champions in the class.

Zen InethDec 19, 20169 votes

A heal bot would suggest that the support in question is doing only healing and nothing else. Well, with the 90 second cooldown on Redemption, that support must not do very much else, huh?

Of course, if you're actually playing a Support like that, then you're doing it wrong. Saying that a couple of items gives an entire role its worth is improper.

Bots Whilst HighDec 19, 201611 votes

I would argue that the top lane meta shift to tankier champions and the jungles shift to heavy peel/initiators probably has a bigger effect on the unplayability of the assassins. When I'm playing khazix jungle I don't go "oh fuck a sona with redemption" I go "oh fuck poppy top and ivern jungle both with CoTC"

All these mid assassins are mad that they can roam down three levels ahead and get a cheese kill on the squishy support imo. If supports are gonna continue he to be level 13 when everyone else is 17-18 they need meaningful options to keep themselves and their team alive outside of their kit.

ZerenzaDec 19, 20163 votes

Nah, i care about being able to kill my target, i don't expect to be 3 levels ahead of them. In fact usually i'm only one level unless i'm REALLY fed but the main issue i have is while i'm the same level as the ADC, i jump on them, i unleash my full flawless combo, only to see that i have to remove 2-3 health bars while being bursted with 3 auto's. Trying to kill a 3000 health vayne is one of the most frustrating things ever to an assassin, all because of the massive amount of Shields and Heals that they've been given.

It makes the assassin class completely useless and the ADC class overpowered because nothing can kill them like it used to. Now the only way your going to kill an ADC is if the ADC is being stupid and split pushing alone, if they decide to never do that and group like a smart ADC would then it's over, you just made the assassin worthless.

AMYS GRAVEDec 20, 20165 votes

Nah, i care about being able to kill my target, i don't expect to be 3 levels ahead of them.

Well you are, soooo.....

if they decide to never do that and group like a smart ADC would then it's over, you just made the assassin worthless.

Grouping has always been the counter to assassins, that hasn't changed at all.

Assassins counter ADCs, utility supports counter assassins. That's part of why it is meta for those two to lane together because the ADC should really never be alone. They need the utility the support provides to survive.

Also if you're roaming bot lane then the supports entire kit was used against you and your adc/support should have a field day with an easy kill.

ahferroin7Dec 20, 20165 votes

So, in other words, you're mad that a class of champions who are designed to solo a single person and be countered by crowd control can't handle a 1v2 against high damage and crowd control?

ZerenzaDec 20, 20161 votes

Wrong, an assassins job is not only to Solo someone, it's to remove someone from a fight by getting them alone or in a vulnerable spot in the first place. Currently that's almost impossible, previously it was possible for an Assassin to properly flank an enemy team, take out their ADC or Support and either peace out or die.

Right now that's impossible in most cases, ADC's are extremely Bursty and Supports will give their ADC 2-3 Health bars of extra HP. It's stupid, it makes the assassin class pointless.

ahferroin7Dec 21, 20162 votes

Have you ever considered going for the support? Not only are they apparently OP at the moment, but they're often just as squishy (if they're healing and shielding for that much, they're squishy), and people react very differently to being jumped on themselves than having their team-mates jumped.

Also, I'm kind of the opinion that this is payback for the multiple years of assassins roaming bot-lane and the supports not being able to do ***** about it.

ZerenzaDec 21, 20161 votes

The top Supports right now, Janna, Soraka, Blitz, Taric and Zilean are really hard to burst down, if they don't give their ADC a sheild they sheild themselves instead, soraka can't but in my experience supports can get to be pretty tanky, even if they only have about 2000 health they can have well over 200 resistances from their build path. It's harder to burst the support because of the raw tank stats their items give them. I would, however, always try to remove soraka from the fight and succeed frequently but with redemption it doesn't matter, she'll still be able to heal her team regardless.

Which the whole point of targeting a support is to remove that aspect from a fight. But with redemption it, again, doesn't matter she'll still do it regardless so there's no point in taking uber damage from the ADC just for a support that can still help while dead.

Edit: i Do notice though that your a support main, so i don't really think there's any point in continuing this conversation. Your biased.

RomtheguyDec 21, 20161 votes

Your biased.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder894/500x/62982894.jpg Shit, this isn't the M&G Boards oh no

salty testiDec 19, 20163 votes

[deleted]

Spice POWAHDec 19, 20162 votes

That's what i'm saying, it's like, "We updated all the assassins, so supports get an item that counters burst uwu"

RalanrDec 19, 20165 votes

That doesn't make your point better. That really just makes the whole botlane argument worse since ADC diversity is complete shit.

If I only need an item to replace what I lack as a support, then what reason is there to play any certain support? You want shields? Now instead of going Janna, Sona, or anyone with face, you just need a locket. Want heals? Now just grab redemption instead of deciding between Soraka, Nami, Sona, or Taric. Want some damage? Grab Frostqueen.

All that's missing is a support item with a hard CC active.

Now there's nothing wrong with item diversity in general. But right now the items might be a smidge too strong on their own that they become frustrating on the champions designed for them.

Janna can already shield people. Now she can stack another shield on top of hers or give two shields.

Zen InethDec 19, 20166 votes

Right, because Locket, with its minute-thirty cooldown for a shield is going to have the same uptime as a Lux shield on a 9 second cooldown. Sure.

You're simplifying the argument too much. Just because an item exists that has the same capability as another champion's kit doesn't mean you shouldn't pick that champion. Am I going to stop playing Vi just because Last Whisper and Trinity Force exist? No, of course not, I'm going to keep playing Vi because I like what she brings to the table.

Just because Locket gives a shield doesn't mean I won't play Lux, it just means that I get to impact teamfights more effectively than just using a W by itself.

AbyssphereDec 19, 20166 votes

Your own points are making it clear that there is still value in taking champions who already offer what is being given by support item actives at this point. You say early in the post that you can just go for anyone if you want shields and don't need to rely on clerics, but in your last point you talk about Janna being able to stack shields and how frustrating that is. What does that mean? It means that support diversity still exists. Locket and Redemption on a champion with no inherent heals/shields for allies makes them decent at giving health to their allies, while those items on champions with healing and shielding in their kits makes them incredible at it. That is differentiation, in my opinion.

I do think the items are too dominant - not to the point where all of the champions are blending into one but rather to the point where it feels like supports don't really exist to do anything except use item actives at this point. I think it's a pity that items like Grail, Censer and Knight's Vow are so ignored (weak?) right now because those items are a lot more focused on improving what supports already inherently do in their kits and to me that makes the champions feel a lot more satisfying. If I save someone with Sona with Redemption that doesn't really feel like something I did, but if I save someone with Sona's W because it's been amplified by multiple items, that does feel like something I did. It's more satisfying to me to save someone with my abilities than with an active that anybody can buy.

I get why Riot is unwilling to nerf Redemption and Locket given the current situation with supports and queue times, but I'm sure that if they nerfed those items and buffed their competition then the result wouldn't be too bad. Honestly I imagine at this point that the power of Locket and Redemption is actually turning people off the role, because constantly rushing those items and pressing both actives in every fight must be getting quite dull for people at this point. It's super repetitive.

RalanrDec 19, 20162 votes

Ok you probably explained the problem better than I.

PennsDec 19, 201610 votes

So basically "before, you had to use your kit properly to have impact in fights, now you just press 2 active items" Kappa

Zen InethDec 19, 20162 votes

Yeah, because other roles get to have great items to benefit their kit, like ADCs getting Crit or Lifesteal, but Supports shouldn't get any decent items, okay.

Let's go back to Season 4 where you get to have a Sightstone and that's it. That'll impact a fight nicely when someone invariably walks into the enemy team.

PennsDec 19, 20164 votes

"Decent" =/= out of this world broken tho

Zen InethDec 19, 20165 votes

What exactly is so broken about them? They offer an active that is sufficient for its cooldown. You're not getting a 200+ shield every ten seconds. It's going to take a while for that to come back. Supports still have to be judicious about how they use it, or else it won't be effective.

Sure, it'll be up for every fight, but if fights drag on or your team re-engages, you won't have that active available. For its use in a single instance, I think it's very reasonable.

PennsDec 19, 20163 votes

Because the % shielding and healing power alone is godlike + scales with Windspeakers. Also late game Redemption is a ~600+ heal for everyone in it while Locket is a ~800+ decaying shield for everyone. Put that on Janna or Soraka that already have heal/shield overload and.. hf

MissingKayoDec 19, 20166 votes

Because shielding almost an ADC's entire fucking health bar with just a shield item or two is fine.

Zen InethDec 19, 20162 votes

Most ADCs have about 1900 (or more) health at level 18.

At level 18, Locket shields for 665 damage, and lasts for 2.5 seconds. That's a third of their health that falls off if you kite it out.

MissingKayoDec 19, 20162 votes

http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%253A%252F%252Fi.imgur.com%252F1Xopdtm.png%253F1&key=a45e967db0914c7fb472fd4381e6c85b&width=425

You were saying?

Zen InethDec 19, 20163 votes

"Not found"

MissingKayoDec 19, 20165 votes

http://i.imgur.com/jLK1lJV.png

Zen InethDec 19, 20165 votes

Where's the context? Who's applying the shield? I see the particles of Face of the Mountain on that Twitch(?), so it can't be a single shield.

Cosmic WarperDec 19, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zen Ineth,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lpeHy0fK,comment-id=000100010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-19T16:06:41.503+0000)

Where's the context? Who's applying the shield? I see the particles of Face of the Mountain on that Twitch(?), so it can't be a single shield.

Of course it's not a single shield. But being able to be shielded for that much is insane if it's fotm and locket

Zen InethDec 19, 20163 votes

Okay. Once, I was able to have an entire life bar's worth of health as Orianna with E, item 3003 , and Lux Shield

Shields have always been able to do this, but they're just more prevalent now. People will eventually get through their hate of them after they understand how to kite.

This is all just Riot's ploy to indirectly teach people core game skills

Cosmic WarperDec 19, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zen Ineth,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lpeHy0fK,comment-id=00010001000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-19T20:09:44.426+0000)

Okay. Once, I was able to have an entire life bar's worth of health as Orianna with E, , and Lux Shield

Shields have always been able to do this, but they're just more prevalent now. People will eventually get through their hate of them after they understand how to kite.

This is all just Riot's ploy to indirectly teach people core game skills

Well CoC lasts for 4s and locket is 2.5. No one can kite for 2.5s+ in a teamfight long enough to get through the shield without being at risk of dying or cced.

Resonance x LFTDec 19, 201621 votes

Posts like this are a cancer.

Yes, let's force the support role to have zero impact on the game.

Good fucking idea.

SpoofghoulDec 19, 201614 votes

So maybe instead of nerfing all the supports and theri itemization

because god knows we need more supports

it's finally time to nerf the adc class

Best princess EUDec 19, 20168 votes

i mean if we want support to be popular that is what should be done

SpoofghoulDec 19, 20165 votes

Yes, make the big carries more reliant on support high moments for protection or engages etc etc

ReyndriaDec 20, 20162 votes

I wouldnt say the class as a whole...just stuff like vayne literally dealing 4/5 of tank kench's hp in one aa would be nice.

VekknaDec 19, 201613 votes

Bot lane is in a pretty bad spot right now. The S7 meta is basically junglers farming their way to raid boss status by 10 minutes and then deep-diving bot lane over and over. So the shields are pretty much the only way to survive long enough to turn ganks around.

I'm a Zyra main who absolutely crushed season 5 and 6. I ate bot duos for breakfast and had shut down junglers for dessert. Then this season has been nothing but struggle on the champ I played for some 800 ranked games. That is due to the combination of support shields outscaling damage and losing influence relative to jungle.

When I play mid lane the shields are just enraging. The passive Maw shields were already frustrating. Then add CoC shield plus Locket plus kit shields, and it feels impossible to kill anyone the support wants to save.

But if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. New main Taric . Good luck killing anything.

S H A Y C 0Dec 19, 20168 votes

CoC shield

I know its a lot of typing to spell out "courage of the colossus" but...do i really even have to explain why "CoC shield" is a bad idea XD

RocketRelmDec 19, 20164 votes

I don't see what's wrong with using your CoC. Means you don't run out of stamina prematurely.

S H A Y C 0Dec 19, 20166 votes

Nobody likes being CoC blocked XD

RalanrDec 19, 201612 votes

Not sure why supports need two shield items.

"Not all supports build Face"

Not all supports offer the same utility. That's kinda how diversity works.

Zen InethDec 19, 20164 votes

Locket isn't a support-specific item, either. SoloRenektonOnly takes it on Renekton as a core third item because it has a nice active.

dominusxDec 19, 20165 votes

i mean i get locket on rengar when i play vs competent opponents but holy shit diving in only so the adc gets 3 lifebars screw this lol.

DragonSheaDec 19, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zen Ineth,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lpeHy0fK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-12-19T15:03:39.891+0000)

Locket isn't a support-specific item, either. SoloRenektonOnly takes it on Renekton as a core third item because it has a nice active.

Yeah, the same here when I play renek. It's good those all in's especially when you got anyone that is melee or you are clumped together.