Can we get rid of this meta. The meta of which botlane feeds more loses meta.

dominusx··153 votes·7,209 views

Cant remember the last time when a lane losing had so much impact on the games outcome. litterally if your botlane dies more than 3 times in the 1st 10mins you can open mid games is pretty much over (unless ofc someone on the enemy is inting already) I would really LOVE for the game to be decided by my fkcn mechanics and macro and not by how much my botlane manages to fkn feed. Thank you.

How to do that? Get rid of the fb tower gold which wasnt needed in the 1st place. and Give botlane normal fortifications to stop this bs Gangbang which is a race with the clock of which team manages to get in position to gangbang 1st.

155 Comments

CppL35 votes

{quoted}

Cant remember the last time when a lane losing had so much impact on the games outcome. litterally if your botlane dies more than 3 times in the 1st 10mins you can open mid games is pretty much over (unless ofc someone on the enemy is inting already) I would really LOVE for the game to be decided by my fkcn mechanics and macro and not by how much my botlane manages to fkn feed. Thank you.

How to do that? Get rid of the fb tower gold which wasnt needed in the 1st place. and Give botlane normal fortifications to stop this bs Gangbang which is a race with the clock of which team manages to get in position to gangbang 1st.

It needed for lcs to stop lane swaping.It kind of worked ,but it totally fucked up soloQ...

dominusx17 votes

Legit game rn. I picked olaf since both my junglers got banned. I ganked 2 times 1kill 1 flash then botlane got a doublekill. and then i simply did nothing after that. guess what? game was won as soon as bot got a doublekill just like that. after that i procceded to go and tax my midlaner cause he was busting my --. i litterally did NOTHING and won NOTHING i had 1 more k dmg than m support Nami. this is the fkn meta. and there are games where i pick darius i got 60k dmg and i cant carry.

Xonra2 votes

Yup the game is 100%, and I fucking mean 100% down to 2 factors and ONLY 2 factors:

  • Who has the better jungler who can gank faster and do so successfully faster

  • Who can then gank and get their bot lane ahead

If you can get to your botlane faster and get them even 1 kill early, then it will snowball out of control. You come back and get another kill? whelp, FF at 8? At that point you WILL get first tower blood, you WILL have dragon control at least on the first two dragons, and it just spills over from there. It is dumb as hell, and this to me is way more boring than the laneswaps in pro (cause no one in solo queue laneswaps, so it just effed up solo queue).

I used to be able to win off of skill and being better than my opponents. Now it all depends on if my jungler or the enemy jungler (and usually mid for at least the second round of gang bang) gets there first and more successfully. It is no longer purely skill based and more just who brings the most guys first.

Synnx739 votes

{quoted}

It needed for lcs to stop lane swaping.It kind of worked ,but it totally fucked up soloQ...

Well LC$ is all that matters. Screw the 99.9999%

Anidan17 votes

And thus the Casual vs. Competitive argument comes up; and lo as it sees no new argument, behold as it sees no resolution in sight. And thus it slinks away again.

Enloct4 votes

It's only half relevant in this case. There was nothing inherently imbalanced about laneswapping. It was just boring to watch.

RavenMagus8 votes

There was nothing inherently imbalanced about laneswapping.

Not actually true.

You had a whole class of champions - people who are good lane bullies and good early game in general but don't scale well, like Renekton or Pantheon - who automatically went down the shitter in competitive play because their entire strength could be completely bypassed simply by a lane swap.

It doesn't even matter if Renekton or the like were actually strong or not. The other team would simply avoid them with a lane swap, and by the time it was over they wouldn't matter anymore. Lane phase never even existed.

Off Meta Evan3 votes

well honestly i feel this game just needs to pick a fucking side on that. it has champions like Tryndamere and Riven that essentially amount to being solo Q cheese for the individual but its meta and new mechanics are designed around the best players in the world. it feels like they can't make up their fucking minds about shit. i PERSONALLY think that basing the things around a perfect competitive 5v5 scenario is flawed because to paraphrase Dunkey "LCS isn't real league of legends, real league of legends is where you have 3 guys in the game that actually know what their doing and 7 others that are retarded."

Swarovsko11 votes

Kinda wish LC$ never existed. That shit is just ruining the fucking game

Anidan13 votes

This is always one of those topics that's hard to approach. You either come in with a clear bias, or you're in the neutral ground, can see both sides of the argument and thus provide no real support for either side and watch as both sides make good arguments, good enough that neither side can really budge.

Competitive vs. Casual balancing is always very difficult to approach, whether in RTS games, FPS games, PvP-based MMOs, MOBAs, etc. If a game leans toward balancing toward casual play, the competitive market is going to die off because the game won't have enough depth for that kind of devoted play, and if it's balanced toward competitive play then the casual aspect of the game is hurt because there's going to be all sorts of arbitrary limitations and rules set that are in place solely for the high-end organized and competitive brackets. One could say that the game should cater to the casuals who foot most of the bill for the game, but on the other hand you can't ignore the people who put by far the most hours and dedication into the game and knows its inner workings better than anyone else.

I used to think the LCS, and other competitive elements of the game, were ruining it, but now as I sit back and look at it from an outsider's perspective (since I don't play LoL anymore), it gives you a different perspective on what it does to the game as a whole. From the perspective I hold from playing other games since League, it feels like League pushes out balance patches too often, and they're a strange mish-mash of competitive and casual balancing (which is fine, nothing wrong with it just because it seems strange). As a result of the comparably fast balance changes the balance decisions are often not well thought-out for the long-term, and the players also don't get to have a truly firm grasp of the balance of the game in a given state, which ends up in this see-sawing motion of champion balance where a champion goes up... then comes down... then up, down, up, down. Pair that with the fact that sometimes those balance changes are fairly drastic, in the middle of the season no less, and you end up with a game with very chaotic balance and nobody knows if it's because of a focus on casual or competitive balancing, except it can't be just one side's "fault" because the balance notes often include changes to placate both sides of the spectrum.

I used to think the LCS was ruining the game, but if the game's being ruined then, in truth, it would be both sides doing it in, not just one side. Both sides have input in the balance notes. You can't just demand that your input be just as valid but if anything goes wrong then it's the other side's fault.

Rahzon12 votes

they should have solved that problem with a rule that says "only 1 toplaner" or "no laneswaps" instead of fcking this game up harder every season

Supreme Senpai6911 votes

You can't blame people for using the META. It would be stupid not to. There's other ways to prevent lane swaps, and those should be in place to discourage them. Not arbitrary rules.

MagikarpIsBoss2 votes

So that means I cant go Teemo as Top Lane Support?

Being serious now, as long as some strategy is way better than anything else, Pro players will abuse it. No questions asked.

KoKoboto3 votes

I agree for an alternative but the two options you have are just as bad as what we have now, sure it wouldn't effect solo queue but it's just stupid to tell players what they cannot do in game.

All Skillzz12 votes

it really is stupid. just had a vayne+thresh duo feed a kalista zyra and lost bot tower by fucking 6 mins. kallista and zyra proceeded to come mid/top an take the tower then went bot an killed the over pushed vayne thresh who still havnt managed to take the fking bot tower.

bleufromage2 votes

this can happen in any lane where there is a huge discrepancy in skill. the only difference is there are 2x as many people in the lane

Spikeman712 votes

[{quoted}](name=All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4TQBYLj8,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-12-27T11:52:47.251+0000)

it really is stupid. just had a vayne+thresh duo feed a kalista zyra and lost bot tower by fucking 6 mins. kallista and zyra proceeded to come mid/top an take the tower then went bot an killed the over pushed vayne thresh who still havnt managed to take the fking bot tower.

I'm pretty sure I was in that game. SO familiar.

bleufromage7 votes

well if your mid then roam bot and give them an advantage. if your jg gank and/or countergank. if your top consider using ur tp to get a double kill on bot lane. If your unwilling to help your team and just flame them for feeding you will lose and be disliked.

devdev4636 votes

Is a feeding bot lane news to you? That's how it's always been. Bot lane has ALWAYS been the lane which wins or loses the hardest out of any other position on average. This is because there's more shit to take. Get your bot lane ahead you can take bot tower, set up dragons easier, and after they take their tower can rotate and take the mid tower as well.

Risk of Fate5 votes

Well, the thing is that it's a roam meta and if you're playing mid/jungle, you should be camping that lane as hard as possible. Screw top lane, first tower blood is worth too much. Whenever I mid, I used to be able to punish for my laner roaming. Now, I have to weigh between whether it's better to counter-roam or take tower. Since I cannot possibly do enough damage compared to the four man bot, I tend to follow my lane a lot more.

That aside, even before the tower changes I would prefer a support who actually did things. If they could take a kill, I want them to grab it. If I back, take whatever cs you can under tower. If we pushed, go roam and help another lane or even ward the enemy jungle. I get I'm they carry, but my mentality has always been that I'll get the kills eventually. I'd rather be 1/0/5 than 0/3/2 as then I'm able to at least do something.

Dengeden5 votes

That's not a meta. It's basic math.

GigaPube5 votes

oh ok the "which botlane feeds more loses" meta. thank you for contributing to the 20th title of the definitive meta in december 2016. lets take a look at your description here

litterally if your botlane dies more than 3 times in the 1st 10mins you can open mid games is pretty much over

hm....6 deaths on one side, 6 kills on the other....why....that sounds like a snowballing bot lane since the creation of the entire game. wow my little dominusx is growing up fast. hes learning from the koreans in that when one team goes 6-0, the team might aswell surrender asap cos solo q aint carrying shit, yet people still dont know this and force others to go up to 40 minutes longer than they need to in an obviously lost game, I LOVE WASTING TIME YAAAAAYYYY :) :) :)

but srs, give me a time when 6-0 botlane didnt win like 9 out of 10 games, above diamond of course. theres no meta below that obviously lmao. can you imagine every little brat coming on reddit or on here crying about their own little "meta" that they dont like? that would be quite cringeworthy indeed oh golly gosh that would be a disaster. enough for someone to blow their own brains out reading that shit all day teehee

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

Whelp:

You guys wanted assassins dead and you got it. You guys wanted support to have more impact and you got it. You guys wanted things that beat range to die and you got it. You guys wanted mages nerfed and you got it.

You made your bed. Lie in it.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

mages nerfed? things beat ranged?

LUL

404 NOT FOUND

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

Assassins used to be damn good at dealing with them back in Season 3. People hated that they had to be wary of things like "position" and "map awareness" so Riot nerfed them.

Also mages have been steadily nerfed. They're still good but they're not nearly as good as ranged ADCs. Because Viktor blowing his entire rotation to kill you in a second is far more problematic than Caitlyn hitting four autos to kill you in 2 seconds.

NoPaxt4 votes

Or you can get legit supports to play the lane, instead of bring carries down there that are waiting for late game to get strong enough to matter...

Papa Andrei26 votes

So my leona, Braum, and Thresh aren't real supports. When did thay happen?

NoPaxt2 votes

no, tank is the worst role for support, your income for armor/mr doesn't keep up with damage...

Papa Andrei26 votes

So dispire the fact that they are deisgned to be in support eole (passives, abilities, shielding, lack of real damage or sustainability) they aren't supports? XD roflmao

Anidan10 votes

TO BE FAIR... Leona was, in fact, designed to be a top laner.

She's not balanced as one now, but she wasn't designed to be in a support role, it just happened, just like Blitzcrank who was also originally designed to be more of a bruiser than a support. Not saying you're any kind of wrong about her being a support now, just pointing that out.

r4ndomkill2 votes

hey, don't knock bruiser blitz. he's my jam.

ADepressedLeona2 votes

Phreak played her in the top lane in the spolight. But no where did Riot come out and say "Leona is a top laner"

If anything, she was advertised as the first female tank. And plenty of people saw her support potential before she was released

Randomonium4 votes

Absolutely not. Tank items are cheaper than damage items. That's why you can play tanks as supports in the first place. Plus, their roams are fantastic and the can get deep vision much easier because they're not worried about getting popped instantly. There's a reason why tanky supports have dominated the pro scene year after year. Its only recently that squishy support have had their day in the sun.

NoPaxt1 votes

If you're a support mage you are building redemption not item 3089 and item 3151

Randomonium5 votes

What tank builds item 3089 and item 3151?

NoPaxt1 votes

Supports Mages don't build those.... Their Items are cheaper than tank items.

Randomonium4 votes

Not really since most tank supports build similar items to support mages. Pretty much everyone builds sightstone, locket, and redemption. Tanks will normally go Knight's Vow while support mages may go something like Mikael's or Athene's.

The point I'm making is that tank items are cheaper than DAMAGE items. Your whole point was you can't play a tank as support because he's not tanky enough to deal with the damage. That's simply not true. Support tanks are dominant in high elo and pro play for the reasons I already listed.

Where exactly are you getting your information from?

abdul5693 votes

How about doing something with the minions? maybe more exp for top minions, but less gold while the vice versa for bot lane. gold reliant adcs will be underfed staying top while other standard top laners like nasus will really enjoy the level advantage over botlane.

Edit: this to replace tower FB

Supreme Senpai697 votes

That's sorta a nerf to every top laner though

Cowseed3 votes

But top lane already has excess exp in my opinion. 9/10 games I have the highest level on my team or in the game by 20mins.

MagikarpIsBoss4 votes

That is probably because a lot of top laners are either splitpushers or generally stay in lane more. If you stay in lane a lot split pushing, the it is guaranteed that you will have more xp.

Slogg3 votes

I think a bigger point to this is not only losing because botlane fed, but the sheer hopelessness by bot lanes to be able to do anything.

Towers are a joke, constant 4v2s with TPs bot lane it doesnt matter how you play the lane, there is nothing you can do.

Get a lead, push the wave and get gangbanged for pushing your lead. Try to play passive? lane gets frozen, you are denied CS or pushed to your tower and then gangbanged anyway since towers don't do jack shit to stop the constant ganks.

Tentacle Advisor2 votes

This is basically how I feel about this meta. Passive (which is my main style of play) gets me and my adc gangbanged, even under tower. The tower is what I used to think of as a safe haven. If the tower wont even help me stay alive from 4v2's, what on Earth do other players expect me to do as a single champion? Feeding is my only option, but it's not like I'm intentionally 'giving myself away'.

idontgiveabother2 votes

Over the past week I have had too many games where my bot lane has 20+ deaths by the end of the game (Usually at that point its about 20-30 minutes long so thats almost 1 death per minute). I have also had games where I went bot, I get them to blow 2 flashes and that set up the lane to snowball. Its... its stupid.

Oh and the towers are basically useless.

I Creampied Jinx14 votes

Towers have been useless since they changed to the new Summoners Rift. They're utter trash in damage and speed.

rtbf2216514127 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Creampied Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4TQBYLj8,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-12-27T15:19:02.173+0000)

Towers have been useless since they changed to the new Summoners Rift. They're utter trash in damage and speed.

Isn't the bot lane tower the worst tower too in terms of health?

I Creampied Jinx6 votes

Yeah, it's to make snowballing even easier for #proplays. But Riot doesn't care about the big part of the playerbase which play around Bronze-Gold. I could give less of a **** about worlds, it's boring after the first year. It's stale af.

Leetri6 votes

It's not to make snowballing easier, it's to prevent lane swaps.

Dispairado1 votes

I have an idea for a potentially good rework on ADCs; drastically reduce the overall damage they can dish out with the appropriate stats changes and in return make them a little more beefy on health so they can stand their ground better for a hard melee. That way they won't be able to get quadras and pentas just by sitting in the back with their allies acting as a meat shield/cannon fodder for them and in return they'll be able to survive just a little longer up close.

Another idea would be to make ADCs to automatically switch to a weak melee attack when they're being attacked up close, unable to use their powerful ranged attacks to quickly dispose of assassins or fighters who lunge at them.

LatetotheRace5 votes

First idea is an absolute wash, so get rid of that. The second one though, i'd look into that.

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