Is it really neccesary? It just makes her extremenly oppresive since you removed our fuckin pinkwards. every fight vs vayne goes 2 ways 1: she is retarded she dies instanly by Qing into a cc (human error not counterplay you apes) 2: she abuses stealth while 2 hitting you and you cant target her.
Steelflame77 votesI personally am fine with the ult stealth.
But her ult in general needs a rework. I think it should 100% lose the AD bonus on it entirely. Instead, it should amp her Silver-bolts damage while active, and give some other unique amp to her E as well (Longer knockback perhaps?). Doing so lets you strip her up front damage boost, and makes her ult more about the utility. It also further pushes her into tank buster, as she loses a LOT of her up front damage in that swap when I mathed it out even under the assumption that she got double silverbolts damage, she would lose aprox 200-300 on a squishy at level 11, most of that damage being backloaded at that vs the current Vayne's heavily frontloaded damage in Q crit. It would boost her damage vs tanks though, furthering her identity of a tank destroyer with high personal utility, and force her to stick to a target for her ult to be a damage up, unlike now where it gives her complete freedom almost.
Looknook6 votesI would like this. She is supposed to be a tank killer but I swear most other ADC's do a better job. Making her ult more about silver bolts would actually help push her towards that role.
Mecha Incognito15 votesWait, a decent suggestion on the boards?
Who are you? No.. WHAT ARE YOU?!
Spoofghoul2 votesamping silverbolts can be done even without a '' damage increase''
you can make it so that while silver bolts are being stacked on her target this gives her additional attackspeed vs that target to proc them faster
like 1 silverbolt debuff charge would grant + 10/20/30% additional attackspeed vs that target, since you can only have two resets upon proccing and builds up again
should help her overal damage output but makes it less bursty
Joe Armstrong1 votesamp her silverbolts dmg? are u crazy? her silverbolts is the single most bullshit broken fuk in the whole universe!
Shadòw33 votesthey had a nerf on pbe that reduced her invis to 0.5 seconds..
but hey, better revert it.
Not xPeke4 votesbecause they obviously realised that the way Vayne is meant to be played requires her to utilise the stealth mechanic or she probably struggles too much.
There's nerfing a champion and then there's gutting them. Your dislike for Vayne shouldn't require that champion to be made really weak, even if she is a bit too strong at the moment.
Anonagon32 voteswow maybe the problem isn't the fact that she has stealth but that Vayne, tradtionally known for dueling strength and tank-busting, is two-hitting you
certainly Vayne having a stealth wouldn't be a problem if she didn't have burst
dominusx12 votesVayne having stealth wasnt a problem as long as we had A WAY TO COUNTER IT. now we dont we simply get fucked over this 0skillfloor shit.
Anonagon8 votesNo, Vayne having stealth has never been a problem, and not being able to make it useless with 75 gold isn't going to change that. The only problem is her having burst. Stealth is an appropriate tool for her intended strengths and for her character. Burst isn't.
Blåbæret5 votesNo, Vayne having stealth has never been a problem, and not being able to make it useless with 75 gold isn't going to change that. The only problem is her having burst. Stealth is an appropriate tool for her intended strengths and for her character. Burst isn't.
It's always been a problem. Just because people haven't been complaining about it, doesn't mean it hasn't been a problem. Her short range disadvantage is gone when you can't see her.
MisterShameless3 votesThere are a few counters, Karma's tether and Lulu's E provide a nice enough window of true vision to counter Vayne. I enjoy Lulu because of her poly morph disarming vayne and safely applying true vision on Vayne while Karma has to be within dangers reach to keep true vision on Vayne. Another good option is frostqueen which helps extend true vision before or after Karma's tether/Lulu's E. This is about 4-7 ish seconds of true vision (a few more seconds with snare/poly morph), which is nice, if your team can reach Vayne in that duration.
FulleroDendrimer2 votes[deleted]
Takazaki2 votesthey didnt delete pinks they changed stealth
FulleroDendrimer1 votes[deleted]
Virgin Ray16 votesThere's literally no counterplay when you and 
are like solo 1v1ing with 100 hp, once she ults it's game over.
dominusx2 votes1v1 with 100hp wtf is thta supposed to mean. ;pp ( yeh ik what you saying just the way you said it makes no sence )
Virgin Ray1 votesLike where you fought so evenly with her that either one of you can kill the other with 1 auto if you outplay the other, but her ult makes it so that there is a guaranteed chance you'll die
dominusx8 votesthat never happens with Vayne. you just die 1v1 unless you got a point and click instant 1500dmg spell. aka Syndra.
specter42410 votesagreed. if you are a melee good luck fighting her when she has ult (which she always does). she is too good at self peeling while also doing huge damage.
the vayne mains will come downvote it cuz they think its perfectly reasonable and huge plays/effort that they autoattacked you when you cant get near her
Fisher No Chains9 votesAlso, why the actual fuck does her ult cost 80 mana? I know that may not seem like a problem, but she has it everytime she wants (kinda low cd, imo), then add the "oh my mana costs are non-existent" issue, and after 6 she's obnoxious af to play against. Should I mention passive/ult movement speed, Q cd, and uncounterable stealth? I guess I shouldn't. It's almost impossible for you to chase or catch her once she presses R, unless you pick Lissandra and flash+R hoping for her to be stupid enough to build pure AD/AS and not even a QSS.
/salt, but this game is currently a balance mess.
Rickieboss2 votesAnd before anyone says the mana cost is remotely decent, 
's ult is extremely underpowered unless you account for Wound stacks, and that costs 100 MANA!
Compared to a 20 mana cheaper, OP kill-fest, ranged attack Vayne?
Yeah, her ult NEEDS a nerf.
Hayaishi29 votesOr maybe take away the ridiculous AD steriod her ults gives. Maybe then Vayne can stop reaching late game by 2 items.
Umbra Ionia6 votesAnd with 
the same pls.
SweedishGunner6 votesConsidering it's been a feature since her release I wouldn't remove it now.
If Vayne is over performing then nerfs would be necessary however I wouldn't remove part of her identity.
Hinagiku3310 votesKatarina's % Damage Reduction was a feature on her release and Riot removed that.
Same with Azir's knock-up.
If it's bad enough for game health we shouldn't leave it just because it's been around a long time, especially if the game has changed so radically since her kit was made that said feature would never be included if it was made today.
It Hertz When IP15 votes
used to be able to regen turrets.
could restore mana to allies.
's ult scaled off of target's AP.
Kit elements are ALWAYS fair game to remove if Riot deems them more trouble to balance than they're worth.
the Anarchit3cht1 votesi miss heime being able to place his turrets anywhere. one in every lane lol
It Hertz When IP3 votesI do too, but even I have to admit it was kinda cancer. Throw one near bot tower, one near top tower, and so long as you could function with just one turret midlane, enemy had one HELL of a time trying to tower dive.
TheOnlyJoe5 votes
had a slow on his passive
charm amplified her damage
E procced Q mark
had a heal on their W
had a gold generation passive
Melledoneus6 votesIn my opinion Vayne should scale less with AD and more with attack speed. Lower her Q bonus damage ratios significantly, remove the damage on her E, and make her W give attack speed when she procs it. Boom. No more one shot.
dominusx1 voteswhile also boom more tank shredding. i likey. at least it will make her have one role in a team and not the assasin tank buster draintank of madness
Spaceman5pff5 votesTBH vayne should just ALWAYS stealth after tumbling, ult aside.
Would really give her a unique identity as a champion :)
/s
LatetotheRace14 votesIs the identity cancer? Because it sounds like cancer.
Elewd14 votes
that'd be this champs identity
invisiblecat14 votesWOAH nonononono Her stealth is iconic to her kit, and if it was removed they would buff her I think they need to increase her Q cooldown, because 2 seconds is just too low, and would also make it so she can't stealth as often
IA9hRfpP5q7 votesWOAH nonononono Her stealth is iconic to her kit, and if it was removed they would buff her I think they need to increase her Q cooldown, because 2 seconds is just too low, and would also make it so she can't stealth as often
???
Makes no sense for vayne to become invisible... she exists to destroy magic in the world but uses some sort of hocus pocus to become stealth?
vOmvbrawfU2 votes8th in winrate despite being #1 in average games played.
Better nerf her.
Fisher No Chains16 votesYeah, being a supposedly high skill champ while being pick/banned in more than 50% of plat+ games and having a 50%+ winrate is totally fine.
vOmvbrawfU2 votesPlay rate literally means nothing dude. Vayne literally has the highest average games played by her playerbase of any ADC. In case you don't understand what that means, it says that the average vayne you go up against is more experienced with Vayne than any other ADC you will play against.
If you think having the highest experience means you need to be in the bottom half for win rate, then I honestly don't know what to tell you dude.
Sinlaire10 votesyou only paid attention to one number and got angry at it instead of paying attention to all of his numbers presented. yes, she has the highest average games played out of adcs. yes she also has a 50%+ win rate. comes with the territory of having the highest average games played. her players are more competent.
the major issue is the next number that was in the middle getting lost instead of the end like im presenting now. 50%+ pick/ban rate in plat+ games. meaning that due to her SUPER HIGH average games played in comparison to other adcs (putting her at number 1) on the second highest skill skill ceiling adc in the game (behind only Draven) she is either seen or banned in over half of every high ELO ranked game in play. This is due to the Vayne mains abusing her or the non-vayne mains being dead sick of seeing her fucking face to be as frank as possible.
and before you say "well it cant be abuse if she's only hovering around 50%" that arguement is a joke. Riven has roughly the same win rate but she is still hated beyond belief in high ELO because she has LIGHTYEARS better utility in stronger hands than in lower ELO but still only pulls average in wins due to weaker players bringing the bottom line into place. If there wasn't something abusive, un-fun, or un-fair about her kit people wouldnt complain about it. see: 
.
50% pick/ban means she's nailing one or more of those issues regardless of win rate or play rate.
vOmvbrawfU2 votesSo a champion needs to be nerfed just because they're picked a lot, regardless of whether they're too strong? Because it's quite obvious that Vayne isn't too strong....or else she wouldn't have the 8th highest winrate for ADCs despite people that play her having the most experience on her.
I'm not sure why we're nerfing champs based 100% on their playrate. I could totally see the argument for nerfing her if she still had high stats and noobs were playing her. But that's simply not the case. People just like to play her. Probably because the community has forced the idea of "hard carrying" because "if you lose the game it's 100% your fault and not the troll top laners". So people feel like Vayne gives them a chance to "hard carry", so they pick her.
I mean fuck, this community bitches and moans about early game champs being "oppressive" and insert whatever the hot buzz word is. So then Vayne isn't beaten as badly early and can reach her spikes quicker. Then people bitch about late game champs like Vayne reaching their power spike too early. So they call for nerfs. Then once the late game champs are nerfed, they will bitch about strong early game champs not "falling off late enough" because they're late game isn't that much worse than late game champs after the nerfs. So they'll call for nerfs. Then they'll bitch about late game champs again not paying a high enough price for being strong late.
The reason people will always hate champs like Riven, Yi, Vayne, is because they pubstomb and snowball hard. So when you get a hurr durr teammate that feeds them for no other reason than they're an idiot, they will carry the game. And you'll be sad and cry that the champ is OP.....even though that champ has THE HIGHEST experience by it's players and still is only 8th for winrate.
statelesskiller3 votesyou are still not understanding the argument
leesin: high skill champion right? therefore he should have a lower winrate by his high playrate, FEWER PEOPLE SHOULD FIND SUCCESS WITH HIM. because fewer people are simply good enough, this is why his ult was nerfed. because he was too powerful even in the hands of a inexperienced person
vayne: VERY high skill cap champion, should BY DESIGN have a lower winrate then most other champions by her playrate. having a high playrate is fine, that means the community is trying her out, but i dont expect every one of them to be gosu, if she is having a high playrate AND a even DECENT winrate, that means something is wrong, there is some level of abuse or a bug or a imbalance in that champion. there is no reason why half the adcs should be playing her in every game, and winning half the games she is played. when champions are literally pick and ban there is a problem here and it needs to be fixed.
a 50 % playrate on a champion isnt BY ITSELF unhealthy, like say if janna had a 50% playrate, its not too hard to imagine, she is simple, easy, nothing real flashy about her, easy to find success with even with initial experience. alot of people playing her is normal, and jannas win rate has always been in a good place
now take a high skill cap champion like ryze, this man has a low playrate, and a ABSOLUTELY ABYSMAL initial winrate, way below 40%, but he has a monstrously high win rate by playrate, this is because he has a high skill cap when it comes to combos, and with how hard he is to play it makes it hard for anyone to simply pick him up and win with him
vOmvbrawfU2 votesleesin: high skill champion right? therefore he should have a lower winrate by his high playrate
No, his playrate shouldn't determine that at all. His average games played should. What does it matter if 10 people play him that have 1000 games or 1000 people play him that have 1000 games? Equal experience, yet higher play rate. I don't think the 1000 people playing him deserves a nerf just because more people main him.
this is why his ult was nerfed. because he was too powerful even in the hands of a inexperienced person
I actually think this was for the more experienced players. Since noobs with him couldn't even pull off any type of combo with his R. Yet an experienced player could 100-0 you with it without counterplay lol.
vayne: VERY high skill cap champion, should BY DESIGN have a lower winrate then most other champions by her playrate. having a high playrate is fine, that means the community is trying her out
No. It doesn't. It means a lot of people are playing her. If it meant the community was 'trying her out', then her average games played would be LOW. What are we not understanding about this dude?
a even DECENT winrate
Dude, her winrate is 50%. What the fuck do you want it to be, 40%? You want the most experienced ADC to have a 40% winrate? Does that really make sense to you?
a 50 % playrate on a champion isnt BY ITSELF unhealthy
I don't even disagree with this. It's annoying. Yet it doesn't mean the champion is OP. It's actually most likely due to the fact that you guys cried for nerfs on early game champs. Which is why Vayne became popular again. But hey, don't listen to that. Just cry she is OP and then cry the next champ is OP when ya nerf Vayne :)
now take a high skill cap champion like ryze
Ryze is not high skill lol.
Incarceration2 votesI see the rest of your points besides the last one.
Ryze may be busted, but he takes skill.
ahferroin72 votesSkill requirement skews win rate. If you look at people who play her all the damn time, their win-rate is way over 50% on her. By comparison, if you look at people who only play her infrequently, they win a whole lot less, because they have less skill. Win-rate is only a reliable statistic if the play rate is low, because low play rate means they're getting played mostly by people who know what they're doing (Janna is a good example of this), or if they have a very low skill requirement (Caitlyn for example). Vayne has both a high skill requirement, and a high play rate, which means that win-rate is a useless statistic on her unless you restrict it to a specific group of people.
PermabannedGaren1 votesWin-rate is only a reliable statistic if the play rate is low, because low play rate means they're getting played mostly by people who know what they're doing (Janna is a good example of this), or if they have a very low skill requirement (Caitlyn for example).
That people upvoted such a monumentally idiotic statement only exposes the boards for the mentally slow dimwits they are.
A low play rate means a low sample size, and one of the first things you will learn in a statistics class is that the lower the sample size is the more unreliable the data is.
What you said goes against everything humanity knows about statistics.
ahferroin71 votes1% is 1 in 100.
Average games played per-week worldwide is somewhere in the billions.
10% play rate is therefore on the order of 100 million games, which is still a pretty significant sample size. Yes, quality of the data degrades past a certain point, but plus or minus a few million out of a billion is not going to have a significant impact unless you've got a minuscule sample to begin with.
League and other similar games are also an odd case statistically however. The game is balanced around high-level play (that is, people who actually know what they're doing), but the sampling done does not reflect that. The lower the skill of the players in the sample size, the more it skews the win-rate down-wards. On average, characters who are played less are either:
Lower play-rate in the context of something like League usually means that the sample quality is higher because fewer people who are just trying to emulate the pros or playing someone because they think they're OP are playing that champion, and up to a point this offsets the degradation in data quality from a lower sample size. There is a turnover point for this of course, but what that is is dependent on data that's not often directly mentioned (stuff like play rate for any given ELO and how often the champ is banned for example).
