Mobility creep. Snowball. No chance when u're behind. Same 15 champs played.
Well done Riot. Discuss.
Edit: I still remember season 1 - the feats of Shushei. Turning losing games into wins. The back and forth excitement!
Now it's just First kill->snowball->First dragon->First turret->snowball->couple more kills->snowball->winner already decided 80% of the time.
TenBlade3 votesPeople got better at the game over 5 years? huh, whoda thunk
Fraggleroc1 votesPeople got better at the game over 5 years? huh, whoda thunk
It is more than that. It is changes made to the game in part because they wanted a shorter game duration. I'm all for a shorter game duration IF it is similarly exciting. That is not the case currently. Games decided on 2-0 scoreline because of snowball/non-existent tools for retaliation... just become snoozefests.
TenBlade1 votesPeople got better, they now know how to snowball leads and they play champs in lanes best suited to them.
There isn't really a lack of variety
Lets go over who was played in lcs last summer season in 10 games or more
Seems diverse enough to me anyway, that many champions being viable at the upper echelon of play, it's actually pretty impressive
Fraggleroc1 votesPeople got better, they now know how to snowball leads and they play champs in lanes best suited to them.
There isn't really a lack of variety
Lets go over who was played in lcs last summer season in 10 games or more
- Ryze
- Leblanc
- Caitlyn
- Jarvan
- Kayle
- Irelia
- Kassadin
- Zyra
- Nunu
- Rengar
- Kha'zix
- Dr Mundo
- Twisted Fate
- Nidalee
- Jinx
- Ziggs
- Gragas
- Jax
- Syndra
- Yasuo
- Twitch
- Nami
- Evelynn
- Renekton
- Tristana
- Corki
- Kog'maw
- Shyvana
- Braum
- Orianna
- Lulu
- Lee sin
- Lucian
- Morgana
- Thresh
- Elise
Seems diverse enough to me anyway, that many champions being viable at the upper echelon of play, it's actually pretty impressive
Do u know that in The International 4... only about 11-15 dota2 champions were never picked or banned? In part because of Valve's effort to tweak the metagame so it's viable to more heroes being playable.
TenBlade1 votesLarger sample size of games also lets go over who had more than 40 picks, since that would be the same percentage
Soooo that makes it 36 in lol to 37 in dota, cool didn't know that whilst writing those out
Fraggleroc1 votesSoooo that makes it 36 in lol to 37 in dota, cool didn't know that whilst writing those out
U're skewing the statistics to your advantage by only putting those with 40 picks or more.
But the fact is I would be very happy if I'd seen a Gangplank or Galio picked/banned in about 3-5 of LoL competitive games. I want to see variety!
TenBlade1 votesMost of the low pick rate champions had a sub 35% win rate... i fail to see how anyone that was serious about winning would actually pick those.
It's fine that they were picked, but they still lost to the "better" or more "popular" picks
Fraggleroc1 votesMost of the low pick rate champions had a sub 35% win rate... i fail to see how anyone that was serious about winning would actually pick those.
It's fine that they were picked, but they still lost to the "better" or more "popular" picks
how about looking at things from the devs perspective? What Riot vs Valve had done to improve the viability of champions?
http://i.imgur.com/2X2B3XF.png
Look at this chart - it's easy to see Valve made improvements to either the metagame or heroes to help viability of heroes such as Lycan and Brewmaster over the course of a year.
edit: Reddit post : http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2b0sgp/redone_pick_ban_comparison_ti4_vs_ti3/
Jamaree1 voteshow about looking at things from the devs perspective? What Riot vs Valve had done to improve the viability of champions?
http://i.imgur.com/2X2B3XF.png
Look at this chart - it's easy to see Valve made improvements to either the metagame or heroes to help viability of heroes such as Lycan and Brewmaster over the course of a year.
...The chart is the exact same just flipped, not person wise, but comparatively. How is this any different then LoL exactly with the champions that get buffed being more played then the ones that get nerfed?
Fraggleroc1 votes...The chart is the exact same just flipped, not person wise, but comparatively. How is this any different then LoL exactly with the champions that get buffed being more played then the ones that get nerfed?
Yes. That is a sign of balance. But look at viability improvements to the heroes. The ones that were not picked in TI3 and picked/banned in TI4. Alas, those heroes in the middle Huskar and below stayed the same. But look at Lycan Brewmaster Bristleback etc. At least we can see that Valve is trying... Riot isn't even trying.
Jamaree1 votesYes. That is a sign of balance. But look at viability improvements to the heroes. The ones that were not picked in TI3 and picked/banned in TI4. Alas, those heroes in the middle Huskar and below stayed the same. But look at Lycan Brewmaster Crystal Maiden etc.
But now Lifestealer, Dark Seer, and Chen see virtually no play. :I
Fraggleroc1 votesBut now Lifestealer, Dark Seer, and Chen see virtually no play. :I
It is still pretty 'healthy'. At least Valve merely has to nerf those at the top half a little and buff those in the middle Huskar n below... let them be played.
edit: I doubt anyone will bother to make a similar chart of LoL ... because the data reaped will be so imbalanced, skewed and become utterly useless. And Riot defenders will jump in to defend their game.
Jamaree1 votesIt is still pretty 'healthy'. At least Valve merely has to nerf those at the top half a little and buff those in the middle Huskar n below... let them be played.
That is because the different designs of the game, because the fact counters aren't as hard in LoL, the best of the best come and dominate and while they can be managed, DoTA's game comes around hard counters that decide the game more so at the start and thus more variety at the cost of nulling out whole champions. So which is better design policy comes down to personal opinion.
Fraggleroc1 votesThat is because the different designs of the game, because the fact counters aren't as hard in LoL, the best of the best come and dominate and while they can be managed, DoTA's game comes around hard counters that decide the game more so at the start and thus more variety at the cost of nulling out whole champions. So which is better design policy comes down to personal opinion.
U're throwing yourself in defense of Riot's incompetence again. Yes, they are different games. But what makes a Moba interesting? What makes us want to play these games from Dota Allstars till now - it is variety of unique heroes and playstyle of said heroes these games offer. What will happen when we get to watch only 15% of your entire pool of champions get played consistently over the course of a tournament? We get bored!
Jamaree1 votesU're throwing yourself in defense of Riot's incompetence again. Yes, they are different games. But what makes a Moba interesting? What makes us want to play these games from Dota Allstars till now - it is variety of unique heroes and playstyle of said heroes these games offer. What will happen when we get to watch only 15% of your entire pool of champions get played consistently over the course of a tournament? We get bored!
You aren't understanding me. I'm not saying variety is bad. Variety is great, getting to see lots of different champions is great. I'm saying with how this game works, it isn't possible with how this game works. Nerfing the top ten will just make a new top ten, which it has done over and over and over again through the years.
Fraggleroc1 votesYou aren't understanding me. I'm not saying variety is bad. Variety is great, getting to see lots of different champions is great. I'm saying with how this game works, it isn't possible with how this game works. Nerfing the top ten will just make a new top ten, which it has done over and over and over again through the years.
Then we need to change something. Let there not be a 'popular current meta' so to speak. So in a tourney, champions that are good in a wombo combo get equally chosen with champs that are good at splitpushing or poking. Change the map- change mechanics- change... something. Riot has to!
Jamaree1 votesRepost why?
Fraggleroc1 votesStop downvoting me because u're too pussy to tell Riot the truth about their game. They need a wakeup call.
All it takes is just 1 exciting new Moba that does everything right to overtake their throne. Or they can be like WoW - sitting comfortably on top - but everyone knows it's been dead since 4 years ago.
Jamaree2 votesStop downvoting me because u're too pussy to tell Riot the truth about their game. They need a wakeup call.
All it takes is just 1 exciting new Moba that does everything right to overtake their throne. Or they can be like WoW - sitting comfortably on top - but everyone knows it's been dead since 4 years ago.
I'm asking why you reposted on top of the fact you are acting like the variety was huge back then. It wasn't, Ashe dominated mid to the point where you were a troll for not picking her. She removed every melee from the game, she is the reason that champions have mobility now. Blame the pros for the fact there is so few variety, because nothing Riot will do will make it so that more then a few champions get picked at a time.
Fraggleroc1 votesBlame the pros for the fact there is so few variety, because nothing Riot will do will make it so that more then a few champions get picked at a time.
No, it's not the pros' fault for trying to play what they feel will give them the maximum advantage. It is Riot's fault when they have only this small pool of viable champions to pick from. i.e. Unless u play specific champions, u'll get completely brutalized by a Gnar up at top. The pros didn't have much of a choice- when champions that can do so much- with so much ease- exists.
Jamaree2 votesNo, it's not the pros' fault for trying to play what they feel will give them the maximum advantage. It is Riot's fault when they have only this small pool of viable champions to pick from. i.e. Unless u play specific champions, u'll get completely brutalized by a Gnar up at top. The pros didn't have much of a choice- when champions that can do so much- with so much ease- exists.
Ok, nerf said champions with so much as you talk about, do you know what happens? The next thing takes it place. In the case of top, it went from being Renekton meta, to Gnar and Ryze meta, to Irelia Rumble meta where the early three were all nerfed. In the case of mid, it went from an Ahri meta, to a Syndra meta, to a Fizz meta, to a Fizz, Azir, and Ahri meta again. Ahri was nerfed, then Syndra, then Fizz, and Azir was considered shit tier until his buffs, as was Ahri. Bot, we went from Vayne, to Caitlyn, to Lucian, to the original three holy trinty again of Graves, Corki, and Ezreal. Vayne, Caitlyn, and Lucian all stopped being played because...nerfs. Do you see what is happening here? The best few are always going to be picked, creating variety is literally impossible when the community is dead set on ONLY accepting what the pros play as viable, no exceptions.
Fraggleroc1 votesOk, nerf said champions with so much as you talk about, do you know what happens? The next thing takes it place. In the case of top, it went from being Renekton meta, to Gnar and Ryze meta, to Irelia Rumble meta where the early three were all nerfed. In the case of mid, it went from an Ahri meta, to a Syndra meta, to a Fizz meta, to a Fizz, Azir, and Ahri meta again. Ahri was nerfed, then Syndra, then Fizz, and Azir was considered shit tier until his buffs, as was Ahri. Bot, we went from Vayne, to Caitlyn, to Lucian, to the original three holy trinty again of Graves, Corki, and Ezreal. Vayne, Caitlyn, and Lucian all stopped being played because...nerfs. Do you see what is happening here? The best few are always going to be picked, creating variety is literally impossible when the community is dead set on ONLY accepting what the pros play as viable, no exceptions.
Then have more bans. Or nerf mobility creep from elsewhere. Change summoners' spells. Boost defensive items. Nerf mobility items. Tweak kill exp/gold. Nerf Snowball a little.
Your argument is invalid because there's another similar game out there that could have potentially the same problems. Yet it does not. The variety of champions picked in that game is mind-boggling compared to LoL. It is core champion design philosophy and game balance philosophy as a whole.
The potential to try to fix the game are plenty but Riot is not doing enough and not doing them fast enough.
Jamaree2 votesThen have more bans.
Which will in turn create a new meta of a new top 15.
Or nerf mobility creep from elsewhere.
Which will still just change it to champions that have high amounts of tank because mobility isn't really a problem anymore.
Change summoners' spells. Boost defensive items. Nerf mobility items. Tweak kill exp/gold. Nerf Snowball a little.
Literally nothing to mention here will change that it will continue to be the same way it always is, people will continue to pick the top fifteen for the time and place. Mobility is weak? Ok, let's play champions that aren't need mobility but are obscenely tanky. Boost defenseive items? So recreate season 2 where if you weren't a bruiser you were fucked? Nerf snowball? How? Because every game has this, obviously when you are ahead, you get more gold then your opponent, so unless your opponent gets gold for dying, not going to be a thing.
Your argument is invalid because there's another similar game out there that could have potentially the same problems. Yet it does not. The variety of champions picked in that game is mind-boggling compared to LoL. It is core champion design philosophy and game balance philosophy as a whole.
No, other games don't have this problem, but have other problems instead.
DoTA? The only reason they have more "variety" is because their counters are even harder then ours. You pick a champion then your opponent picks a certain champion, you are then useless. "Oh, I want to play Rylai...oh, they picked Sniper...I didn't want to use my ultimate anyway." "Oh, I want to play Earthshaker...oh...I can't get near Rubix and a cliff for the first ten minutes...ok." Etc etc
The potential to try to fix the game are plenty but Riot is not doing enough and not doing them fast enough.
The problem you are whining about, your suggestions won't fix/change anything besides make a new top 15.
Fraggleroc1 votesNo, other games don't have this problem, but have other problems instead.
DoTA? The only reason they have more "variety" is because their counters are even harder then ours. You pick a champion then your opponent picks a certain champion, you are then useless. "Oh, I want to play Rylai...oh, they picked Sniper...I didn't want to use my ultimate anyway." "Oh, I want to play Earthshaker...oh...I can't get near him and a cliff for the first ten minutes...ok." Etc etc
Sorry to burst your bubble. But That is strategic diversity... the goal Riot has been aiming at but only inching at a turtle's pace towards. U'll see different strategies happen and different champions.
Anything is better than this snoozefest in current LCS. Jarvan Lee Sin Jarvan Lee Sin Jarvan Lee Sin...
Jamaree3 votesSorry to burst your bubble. But That is strategic diversity... the goal Riot has been aiming at but only inching at a turtle's pace towards. U'll see different strategies happen and different champions.
Anything is better than this snoozefest in current LCS. Jarvan Lee Sin Jarvan Lee Sin Jarvan Lee Sin...
Not having the ability to play the game period when a champion is picked is a good thing? Sure, I want variety too, but nerfing things as well as doing what you suggested won't do so.
Fraggleroc1 votesNot having the ability to play the game period when a champion is picked is a good thing? Sure, I want variety too, but nerfing things as well as doing what you suggested won't do so.
I do not have a perfect solution. But hell if I was Riot, I'll throw everything I got at it to find a solution. And Riot has plenty of tools but they're playing with tiny screws.
Jamaree2 votesI do not have a perfect solution. But hell if I was Riot, I'll throw everything I got at it to find a solution. And Riot has plenty of tools but they're playing with tiny screws.
So just randomly throw things at it until it fixes the problem. I remember when they did that. The community bitched that champions weren't given a chance to balance out, that they were nerfed into unviability, that Riot was being too trigger finger.
Fraggleroc1 votesSo just randomly throw things at it until it fixes the problem. I remember when they did that. The community bitched that champions weren't given a chance to balance out, that they were nerfed into unviability, that Riot was being too trigger finger.
Maybe Fix PBE feedback first. They need to have an efficient and stable test platform that gives accurate feedback. After that they can throw a ton of stuff in for testing. They're doing this but PBE feedback gets ignored and nothing were tested well enough.
Jamaree1 votesMaybe Fix PBE feedback first. They need to have an efficient and stable test platform that gives accurate feedback. After that they can throw a ton of stuff in for testing. They're doing this but PBE feedback gets ignored and nothing were tested well enough.
Because most people who go on PBE, don't do it to report bugs, they do it to have every skin and play around. They need to be stricter with that honestly.
TenBlade1 votesI play it to test new champs and report bugs, made numerous reports about azir bugs, all of which made it to live and some still persist to this day.
They need to actually listen to their testers
Leti the Yeti1 votesbalance is relative champions are not equal and will never will be it be a real snoozefest if they were
nerfing top tier champions will not increase the amount of viable options you have the champions directly below those who were nerfed will rise to the top tier nerf those and the cycle continues until shit like 10+(2% bonus AD) becomes OP
Leti the Yeti1 voteswell yeah... s1? the people have changed they have found the most optimal way of winning a game aka the meta
