Evelynn nerfs make her weaker than in S4.

Bears Dont Care··9 votes·585 views

Hate spike : 4.13

MAGIC DAMAGE: 40/60/80/100/120 ⇒ 30/45/60/75/90 ABILITY POWER RATIO: 0.45 ⇒ 0.35/0.4/0.45/0.5/0.55 BONUS ATTACK DAMAGE RATIO: 0.5 ⇒ 0.5/0.55/0.6/0.65/0.7 COST: 16/22/28/34/40 mana ⇒ 12/18/24/30/36 mana

Hate spike 5.10 Q - Hate Spike DAMAGE 30/45/60/75/90 ⇒ 40/55/70/85/100

Hate spike proposed changes 5.13 Hate Spike (Q) damage decreased to 40/50/60/70/80 from 40/55/70/85/100

So at Level 5, Hate spike at rank 3 will deal the same damage it dealt in S4. After rank 3, hate spike will deal LESS damage than it did in S4.

In S4, after the nerfs in 4.13, Evelynn was hurt so badly in terms of viability she received the boost to hate spike damage to make her viable. So she is being nerfed even harder than she was in 4.13. This is in a meta where early ganking isn't as important, and where mid game and late game is more important. You completely decimate her viability in mid game and late game without providing any context for the changes.

If you were concerned about her mid/late damage, why not restore her AP/AD ratios to be static and curb her damage? Having her AP ratio return to .45 would mean a slight boost to early game damage, but mean her mid-game and late game damage will be LESS.

This would achieve the effect of making her weaker in mid-game and late game without severely damaging her damage to the point of unviability, which happened in S4 and early s5. Evelynn is a champion who has little to no utility, lacks gap closers and lacks hard CC. She needs damage otherwise, there is no reason to have her exist.

It would be really appreciated if Meddler, if any RIOT member commented, or considered my proposition above.

On a funny note, anybody else notice that this is twice where severe nerfs fell on Evelynn on patch X.13?

15 Comments

Surr20plz2 votes

more slow on her ult now that slows dont even stack is garbo.

Widder881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lmuxOnko,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-17T21:43:10.722+0000)

If you were concerned about her mid/late damage, why not restore her AP/AD ratios to be static and curb her damage? Having her AP ratio return to .45 would mean a slight boost to early game damage, but mean her mid-game and late game damage will be LESS.

This would hurt Assassin Eve much more than the base damage nerf. Evelynn should not be played as tank. The 55% AP ratio has to stay, or has to be even higher.

She needs damage otherwise, there is no reason to have her exist.

But Evelynn is played as tank in LCS, what doesn't make sense. She obviously does too much damage, without buying damage items. So nerfing the base damage is ok, but she needs higher ratios as well to compensate by buying damage. 60% AP and 80% Bonus-AD would be fine. That Riot don't want to increase the ratios is the real problem, not the base damage nerf.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

This would hurt Assassin Eve much more than the base damage nerf. Evelynn should not be played as tank. The 55% AP ratio has to stay, or has to be even higher.

The problem is it is clear they DON'T want her dealing damage late game. Low base but a high AP/AD ratio promotes it. If you lower the ratio, yes you lose damage late game, but your early game and mid game won't be harmed

But Evelynn is played as tank in LCS, what doesn't make sense. She obviously does too much damage, without buying damage items. So nerfing the base damage is ok, but she needs higher ratios as well to compensate by buying damage. 60% AP and 80% Bonus-AD would be fine. That Riot don't want to increase the ratios is the real problem, not the base damage nerf.

She is played tank because after early game, tanky stats synergize with her ultimate. She can be used as a secondary initiate after the primary tank, allowing her to kill a target with everyone else hitting them. With the base damage nerf, she deals LESS damage than in S4, which is when early ganks meant more. S5 is less about early ganks, and more about mid and late game. They are taking that from her after estoring SOME damage.

So why play evelynn if she has no damage, no hard engag, no hard CC?

Widder881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lmuxOnko,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-07-18T22:58:51.632+0000) The problem is it is clear they DON'T want her dealing damage late game. Low base but a high AP/AD ratio promotes it.

They want her to make a decision between damage and tankyness. They don't want her to buy tank items and still dealing high base damage. But they want her be able to do damage if she buys damage items instead of tank items. The high ratios achieve it.

Before Patch 4.13 she had 120 base damage on Q but only a 45% AP ratio. After 5.14 it will be 80 + 55% AP. This means if you have 400 AP or more you do more damage than before the changes.

She is played tank because after early game, tanky stats synergize with her ultimate. She can be used as a secondary initiate after the primary tank, allowing her to kill a target with everyone else hitting them. With the base damage nerf, she deals LESS damage than in S4, which is when early ganks meant more. S5 is less about early ganks, and more about mid and late game. They are taking that from her after estoring SOME damage.

So why play evelynn if she has no damage, no hard engag, no hard CC?

She has damage, if you buy damage. I go Full damage every game and it works fine because of her high ratios. She can actually kill targets her self instead of working as warding/initiation support for her team. Her role is Assassin not Tank/Support. So higher base damage/lower ratios would be the wrong balance direction for her.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

They want her to make a decision between damage and tankyness. They don't want her to buy tank items and still dealing high base damage. But they want her be able to do damage if she buys damage items instead of tank items. The high ratios achieve it.

Before Patch 4.13 she had 120 base damage on Q but only a 45% AP ratio. After 5.14 it will be 80 + 55% AP. This means if you have 400 AP or more you do more damage than before the changes.

Except that is not considering the fact that the reason many Evelynn's went AP was because her ravage dealt magic based damage. Before 4.13, she had a high base damage that allowed her to maintain some form of damage because DFG was an item that could no longer be used effectively on her due to the changes implemented to her Ultimate and her Ravage.

You don't see AP Evelynn in the LCS, or in high levels of play because it requires a large investment, and due to the change on Ravage, you need to build both mpen and arpen in order to maintain the level of damage expected of an assassin.

If you recall, the moment those changes occurred, her most successful builds became AD bruiser based, rather than AP bruiser/ AP assassin. When Runeglaive appeared, it allowed her to go AP assassin because her ravage returned ot being magical, but after th echange, it is physical again

That was why they returned 10 base damage to her ability, because Ravage being changed to physical, and the lowering of her base damage and alteration of ratio, caused her to disappear competitively.

She has damage, if you buy damage. I go Full damage every game and it works fine because of her high ratios. She can actually kill targets her self instead of working as warding/initiation support for her team. Her role is Assassin not Tank/Support. So higher base damage/lower ratios would be the wrong balance direction for her.

THis has always been the case, if you build damage she deals damage. If you build tanky, you are tanky but don't deal damage. Lowering her base damage a full 20 at rank 5, constitutes a loss of 60 base damage with just 3 casts of hate spike. At 5 its a loss of 100 base damage, and this occurs in under 5 seconds due to the low CD of the ability. It is a very, very heavy nerf on the champion.

She'll return to once again, not being played because there are better, tankier, harder hitting champions than her.

When you consider all of the changes and nerfs implemented, they all contributed to her being very poorly designed.

Shifting ravage to physical = cannot effectively build penetration. Ult going from maximum to current health damage = Always initiate the fight despite being very squishy stat wise. No hard CC = weaker ganks No mobility = good luck catching champions such as kallista.

Why play Evelynn when I can paly Tahm Kench or Ekko? On them I can build penetration effectively, have a large variety of builds, a good amount of CC, and very effective burst damage.

Skia Asteri1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lmuxOnko,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-19T18:11:01.626+0000)

Why play Evelynn when I can paly Tahm Kench or Ekko?

In the case of Ekko, because she dumpsters him harder than any other jungle match up.

http://champion.gg/champion/Ekko/Jungle

Bears Dont Care1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skia Asteri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lmuxOnko,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-19T18:26:28.755+0000)

In the case of Ekko, because she dumpsters him harder than any other jungle match up.

http://champion.gg/champion/Ekko/Jungle

We aren't discussing when Ekko is fighting evelynn, we are talking about what is brought to the team. Ekko brings 2 slows, and 1 AOE stun, as well as the ability to burst/tank/assassinate more effectively than her in late game.

Widder881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lmuxOnko,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-19T18:11:01.626+0000)

Except that is not considering the fact that the reason many Evelynn's went AP was because her ravage dealt magic based damage. Before 4.13, she had a high base damage that allowed her to maintain some form of damage because DFG was an item that could no longer be used effectively on her due to the changes implemented to her Ultimate and her Ravage.

Evelynn is a champion, that has high AP ratios compared to her base damages. This means penetration is not as important for her as for other champions. She also makes great use of CDR. This means she has other build paths than just magic penetration. CDR boots increase her Q-DPS more than Sorcerer shoes for example. She can buy Rabadons instead of DFG for the %-damage increase, and she can buy Hextech-Gunblade instead of DFG for the active. She can buy Sheen items (Runeglaive/Lich bane) and on hit effect items (Nashors Tooth, Botrk).

Remember that her Q-AP ratio was buffed by 10%, and that E applys on hit effects now. E procs arcane blade now twice, what increased its AP ratio to 110%. If you buy flat AP, you don't need penetration to assassinate squishy targets. It would help in the late game, if E would be benefit from magic pen, but it is not necessary. And on the other hand, that it is physical makes it difficult to itemize against Evelynn.

And finally that E is physical damage doesn't mean that Evelynn can't buy magic pen. Without Runeglaive she does overall 2/3% magic damage. Runeglaive changed that to around 5/6. Runeglaive only converts one E strike to magic damage, so with the sheen proc E is currently 2/3 magic damage. After the nerf the sheen proc will still be magic damage, so E will be 1/3 magic damage. Overall she will do probably around 3/4 magic damage. So Evelynn can buy something like a Abyssal scepter, but flat AP and CDR is more necessary and even in the late game she can buy other items too.

Armor penetration isn't needed on Evelynn at all, not even on AD Evelynn.

Runeglaive is a good item for Evelynn, and this will not change because of the nerf. That it was buffed to 50 AP and the sheen proc to 100% base AD was probably important then the damage conversion, as long as you don't focus on magic pen, what is not a good idea anyway.

THis has always been the case, if you build damage she deals damage. If you build tanky, you are tanky but don't deal damage. Lowering her base damage a full 20 at rank 5, constitutes a loss of 60 base damage with just 3 casts of hate spike. At 5 its a loss of 100 base damage, and this occurs in under 5 seconds due to the low CD of the ability. It is a very, very heavy nerf on the champion.

I think it will hurt in the mid game. That is why I want higher ratios for compensation. But you want higher base damage, what promotes tanky builds more than asassin builds. But Evelynn is already played as a Tank in LCS, what is a problem, because it is not her role.

She'll return to once again, not being played because there are better, tankier, harder hitting champions than her.

When you consider all of the changes and nerfs implemented, they all contributed to her being very poorly designed.

Shifting ravage to physical = cannot effectively build penetration. Ult going from maximum to current health damage = Always initiate the fight despite being very squishy stat wise. No hard CC = weaker ganks No mobility = good luck catching champions such as kallista.

Why play Evelynn when I can paly Tahm Kench or Ekko? On them I can build penetration effectively, have a large variety of builds, a good amount of CC, and very effective burst damage.

Evelynn has high damage (Burst and DPS), stealth and high movement speed.

If you want CC play a different champion. Evelynn has no CC because she is a carry and not a support.

Evelynn has high mobility. She has a strong reseting movement speed buff, and doesn't has to stop moving to use her Q. When Kalista hops she is still in range for Eves hate spikes, and Evelynn don't has to stop moving to use it. And a fed Evelynn can burst Kalista in a second.

I don't know about Tahm Kench and Ekko, they will probably have other strengths than Evelynn. I played one game against Ekko mid as Evelynn mid. Was an easy win for me.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

Evelynn is a champion, that has high AP ratios compared to her base damages. This means penetration is not as important for her as for other champions. She also makes great use of CDR. This means she has other build paths than just magic penetration. CDR boots increase her Q-DPS more than Sorcerer shoes for example. She can buy Rabadons instead of DFG for the %-damage increase, and she can buy Hextech-Gunblade instead of DFG for the active. She can buy Sheen items (Runeglaive/Lich bane) and on hit effect items (Nashors Tooth, Botrk).

You would never build CDR boots over sorc boots/mobi/tabi on Evelynn. The items that she builds naturally comes with CDR and it becomes a waste to build it. Everyone who wants to keep their damage relevant in the late game builds mpen or arpen items due to the fact that in mid-game and late game, defensive items start being bought by all but the ADC who builds a 6th item which is typically defensive in nature. While the on hit boost helped her a bit, this all requires her to hit a target, to be in melee range which is why you now build AD bruiser. It is not a matter of it being viability, but necessity for the widowmaker.

Remember that her Q-AP ratio was buffed by 10%, and that E applys on hit effects now. E procs arcane blade now twice, what increased its AP ratio to 110%. If you buy flat AP, you don't need penetration to assassinate squishy targets. It would help in the late game, if E would be benefit from magic pen, but it is not necessary. And on the other hand, that it is physical makes it difficult to itemize against Evelynn.

Actually no, it is the opposite. Ravage was changed to physical because it makes it easier to itemize against evelynn. Every single champion in the game receives free armor as they level. Changing Ravage to physical allowed two things.

  1. No longer one shotting through DFG + Ultimate burst damage.
  2. Allowing opponents to live longer through natural damage reduction.

This is why Evelynn transitioned into an AD bruiser. Armor penetration became a necessity to maintain her burst damage. Ah...but wait...only AD items have armor pen, and the amount of AD they provide to AP is extremely low and makes it more difficult to build her effectively as an assassin.

Runeglaive changed this, it made her E magical. This was changed and its back to physcal

And finally that E is physical damage doesn't mean that Evelynn can't buy magic pen. Without Runeglaive she does overall 2/3% magic damage. Runeglaive changed that to around 5/6. Runeglaive only converts one E strike to magic damage, so with the sheen proc E is currently 2/3 magic damage. After the nerf the sheen proc will still be magic damage, so E will be 1/3 magic damage. Overall she will do probably around 3/4 magic damage. So Evelynn can buy something like a Abyssal scepter, but flat AP and CDR is more necessary and even in the late game she can buy other items too.

Armor penetration isn't needed on Evelynn at all, not even on AD Evelynn.

Armor penetration is a necessity if you want your autoattacks and ravage damage to remain relevant. THe only role in the game that will build only a single defensive item will the ADC so the only one whose damage you're actually remaining relevant against is that ADC. In late game, team fights are extremely important.. Ravage is her "burst" ability, and in a game where mobility becomes more and more about gap closers and teleporting this becomes more important.

CDR is a non-issue, it is built naturally through jungle items and other core items. Penetration becomes more important because unless you are building a massive amount of AP, which you won't because then you'll be extremely squishy and die in team fights, you'll need to break through the natural defense built up as the game progresses.

Runeglaive is a good item for Evelynn, and this will not change because of the nerf. That it was buffed to 50 AP and the sheen proc to 100% base AD was probably important then the damage conversion, as long as you don't focus on magic pen, what is not a good idea anyway.

Magic pen is always important. There is a not a single magic caster that will skip void staff or abyssal taff, and that is including champions whose AP ratios are very high such as Malzahar.

I think it will hurt in the mid game. That is why I want higher ratios for compensation. But you want higher base damage, what promotes tanky builds more than asassin builds. But Evelynn is already played as a Tank in LCS, what is a problem, because it is not her role.

Evelynn had a high base damage as an assassin before the 4.13 changes because her Q's cooldown is so low. When all of those changes occurred, she stopped being an assassin because building it was no longer efficient. My intent is for the base damage to be left alone because she is being more and more reliant on it due to the changes. Evelynn is played tank not because it is her design, but because it is her most viable build.

If you are going to be the second initator in every fight,, especially due to her ult being current health, you need to build bruiser/tank to have any real chance of survival.

Evelynn has high damage (Burst and DPS), stealth and high movement speed.

If you want CC play a different champion. Evelynn has no CC because she is a carry and not a support.

Evelynn has high mobility. She has a strong reseting movement speed buff, and doesn't has to stop moving to use her Q. When Kalista hops she is still in range for Eves hate spikes, and Evelynn don't has to stop moving to use it. And a fed Evelynn can burst Kalista in a second.

I don't know about Tahm Kench and Ekko, they will probably have other strengths than Evelynn. I played one game against Ekko mid as Evelynn mid. Was an easy win for me.

When was the last time you saw anyone build Carry Evelynn in the LCS or in the high ELO's? Seldom is it done because it is not very viable, especially with the recent changes. Furthermore, yes you are in range of kallista for Hate spike, but Hate spike's projectile speed decays as it travels. You wll not hit a kiting kallista due to this mechanic.

THis goes for any mobile champion Evelynn tries to catch. Her W was strong when she gained passive MS from it, the reset only happens if you get a kill which was what you gained in the past anyway. THe soft reset mechanic was also a nerf to her after being claimed to be a "buff."

As for you fight of Ekko vs Evelynn, that is anecdotal.

Widder881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lmuxOnko,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-07-20T13:37:59.739+0000)

You would never build CDR boots over sorc boots/mobi/tabi on Evelynn. The items that she builds naturally comes with CDR and it becomes a waste to build it.

CDR is too important to wait for it. Nashors tooth is the only alternative to CDR-boots, but it is not strong enough in the mid game.

Look how important CDR is:

  • 40% CDR increase the Q-DPS by 1/0.6-1 = 66.66%. In the late game Q does around 450 damage. This means 40% CDR has the same value for Q as 545 AP in the late game.
  • W benefits twice from CDR. The W-CD itself is reduced, but the rest mechanic by spellhits is accelerated too, because the other spells have lower CDs. W is almost always up if you have 40% CDR.

Because of that CDR is the most important stat for Eve, even more important than AP.

Everyone who wants to keep their damage relevant in the late game builds mpen or arpen items due to the fact that in mid-game and late game, defensive items start being bought by all but the ADC who builds a 6th item which is typically defensive in nature.

Eve can build Abyssal or Liandries. That Evelynns damage is not pure magic, doesn't hurt too much, because it is still 2/3.

But sometimes something else is more important. I like to build Mercurial Scimitar against heavy CC, instead of Abyssal for example, and I do still enough damage to kill enemys. Evelynn has endless DPS, so if CC can't stop her she has the damage to kill somebody. That can be way more important than magic pen.

Actually no, it is the opposite. Ravage was changed to physical because it makes it easier to itemize against evelynn.

I remember a Master Yi, who had something like 130 MR but only around 90 armor, and he complained that I still oneshotted him.

Armor penetration became a necessity to maintain her burst damage. Ah...but wait...only AD items have armor pen, and the amount of AD they provide to AP is extremely low and makes it more difficult to build her effectively as an assassin.

When 2/3 of your damage is magic you don't have to give a shit about armor penetration.

And even AD Evelynn does around 50% magic damage. When they buy armor, it is a useless buy against Eves hate spikes, and her autoattacks get mitigated, but they are not irrelevant. When you have already a Hydra and a Trinity Force for example, it is better to buy a Botrk or a Gunblade instead of a Last Whisper. In comparison Last Whisper feels like it does nothing. Rather buy a tank item!

Penetration becomes more important because unless you are building a massive amount of AP, which you won't because then you'll be extremely squishy and die in team fights, you'll need to break through the natural defense built up as the game progresses.

Penetration is actually more important if you have built a massive amount of AP before that, because in this case additional AP will not lead to the same percentage damage increase as with 0 AP.

If you have 0 AP, penetration will be terrible weak compared to AP, because AP is so good in this case. Building penetration without damage on Eve is the worst thing you can do.

Penetration is only good if your scalings are already exploited to a certain degree.

Compared to the base damages Eves AP ratios are higher than Malzahars, so penetration is more necessary for him than for Eve.

Evelynn had a high base damage as an assassin before the 4.13 changes because her Q's cooldown is so low. When all of those changes occurred, she stopped being an assassin because building it was no longer efficient.

4.1 hurt Assassin Evelynn, but not 4.13. Between these patches she was already played as Bruiser in the LCS. 4.13 hurt Bruiser Eve and but was ok for Assassin Eve, because Assassin Eve could get more damage than before with the higher ratios. I actually changed from Bruiser Eve to Assassin Eve some time after 4.13, but now I think that Assassin Eve was better even before 4.13.

My intent is for the base damage to be left alone because she is being more and more reliant on it due to the changes.

These changes make it theoretically terrible to play Tank Eve. With just 80 base damage, she will deal almost no damage. So she will rely more on her ratios to be playable. But the ratios are actually good, so good that the base damage nerf doesn't matter much if you build tons of AP.

If you are going to be the second initator in every fight,, especially due to her ult being current health, you need to build bruiser/tank to have any real chance of survival.

Enemys can't kill you, if there are already dead.

When was the last time you saw anyone build Carry Evelynn in the LCS or in the high ELO's? Seldom is it done because it is not very viable, especially with the recent changes.

I don't care about LCS. These players aren't Evelynn mains, and LCS is something different then Soloqueue anyway.

Furthermore, yes you are in range of kallista for Hate spike, but Hate spike's projectile speed decays as it travels. You wll not hit a kiting kallista due to this mechanic.

I hit her most of the time. Sometimes I burst her, sometimes I kill her with hate spikes a bit later. Sometimes she has more damage, because she got fed in her lane. Sometimes she is too much protected by Supports. But that my Qs don't hit her almost never happens.

Some champions are more problematic like Ahri or Corki, but Champions like Kalista or Vayne have not enough mobility for Evelynn.

Her W was strong when she gained passive MS from it, the reset only happens if you get a kill which was what you gained in the past anyway. THe soft reset mechanic was also a nerf to her after being claimed to be a "buff."

It is a buff if you have 40% CDR. 6 spellhits within 3 seconds is possible (E hits twice, 4xQ), so it is almost always up in a fight.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

CDR is too important to wait for it. Nashors tooth is the only alternative to CDR-boots, but it is not strong enough in the mid game.

Look how important CDR is:

  • 40% CDR increase the Q-DPS by 1/0.6-1 = 66.66%. In the late game Q does around 450 damage. This means 40% CDR has the same value for Q as 545 AP in the late game.
  • W benefits twice from CDR. The W-CD itself is reduced, but the rest mechanic by spellhits is accelerated too, because the other spells have lower CDs. W is almost always up if you have 40% CDR.

It isn't a matter of waiting for cDR, it is the fact that CDR comes naturally as well as the fact that there are stronger, more important items to build. For example, you would go Warriors into botrk because the damage from it synergizes excellent with ravage and her auto attacks. From there, you can build black cleaver/SV/RO/ many other items. CDR is purely for the benefit of her Q, and that isn't the only tool she relies upon.

Because of that CDR is the most important stat for Eve, even more important than AP.

Eve can build Abyssal or Liandries. That Evelynns damage is not pure magic, doesn't hurt too much, because it is still 2/3.

But sometimes something else is more important. I like to build Mercurial Scimitar against heavy CC, instead of Abyssal for example, and I do still enough damage to kill enemys. Evelynn has endless DPS, so if CC can't stop her she has the damage to kill somebody. That can be way more important than magic pen.

I remember a Master Yi, who had something like 130 MR but only around 90 armor, and he complained that I still oneshotted him.

Probably because he didn't get one shot, and to be honest, Master yi shouldn't be losing to Evelynn currently, especially if you properly W reset his AA's. Evelynn doesnt have CC or the ability to dodge CC and it makes her much more vulnerable. Particularly because unless Master yi, she has no gap closer. Mercurial is a good item, but that takes up an item slot that could be reserved for building tanky, pentration, or CDR. Sometimes all three as in the case of BC.

When 2/3 of your damage is magic you don't have to give a shit about armor penetration. disagree, you are considering only skill abilities, you aren't considering your autoa ttack which contribute a significant amount of damage. Particularly items such as botrk which synergize in a god like fashion with her E. She essentially packs a devourer in her E

And even AD Evelynn does around 50% magic damage. When they buy armor, it is a useless buy against Eves hate spikes, and her autoattacks get mitigated, but they are not irrelevant. When you have already a Hydra and a Trinity Force for example, it is better to buy a Botrk or a Gunblade instead of a Last Whisper. In comparison Last Whisper feels like it does nothing. Rather buy a tank item!

MR is built by anyone melee, and most midlaners will have an item providing MR. Supports will also build a mikael/aegis to provide MR. You can't ignore it. LW is an excellent buy for armor pen if they have 100+ bonus armor, which they generally will. Even then I'd recommend going hydra/bc instead because of the on hit synergy and tankiness they provide.

Penetration is actually more important if you have built a massive amount of AP before that, because in this case additional AP will not lead to the same percentage damage increase as with 0 AP.

Not necessarily true. Champions with a low base AP ratio tend to benefit more from penetration than building AP. Penetration is taken only once they start building items. In the case of evelynn, an abyssal scepter will suit her very well long as they have under 100 MR. The issue is finding space to build it and when.

If you have 0 AP, penetration will be terrible weak compared to AP, because AP is so good in this case. Building penetration without damage on Eve is the worst thing you can do.

All AP pen items come with 80/70 AP.

Penetration is only good if your scalings are already exploited to a certain degree.

Compared to the base damages Eves AP ratios are higher than Malzahars, so penetration is more necessary for him than for Eve.

Err...her AP ratios are inferior to Malzahars. He has 80% AP on both Q and E, and 1.3 on his R and 1% per 100 AP on his W. Mpen is very effective period.

4.1 hurt Assassin Evelynn, but not 4.13. Between these patches she was already played as Bruiser in the LCS. 4.13 hurt Bruiser Eve and but was ok for Assassin Eve, because Assassin Eve could get more damage than before with the higher ratios. I actually changed from Bruiser Eve to Assassin Eve some time after 4.13, but now I think that Assassin Eve was better even before 4.13.

These changes make it theoretically terrible to play Tank Eve. With just 80 base damage, she will deal almost no damage. So she will rely more on her ratios to be playable. But the ratios are actually good, so good that the base damage nerf doesn't matter much if you build tons of AP.

Assassin Eve was the primary build prior to Ravage being changed to physical, and her ult being changed to current maximum health. Afterwards everyone went AD bruiser because her burst was inferior to other champions. So everyone went AD, and they will still go AD bruiser. She was reliant on her ratios in 4.13 to do damage, hitting her base damage here doesn't do ANYTHING to discourage building AD bruiser and only further discourages her from building AP assassin.

A base damage nerf is extremely important It is the equivalent of losing roughly 30 AP at rank 5. That is an extremely painful nerf.

Enemys can't kill you, if there are already dead.

CC/kiting/higher burst damage is available to most champions.

I don't care about LCS. These players aren't Evelynn mains, and LCS is something different then Soloqueue anyway.

You should, LCS is the bass of the changes. If people who are at the highest level no longer use a champion, this suggests the champion is inferior to other prospective options. We also see this occur at higher elos.

It is a buff if you have 40% CDR. 6 spellhits within 3 seconds is possible (E hits twice, 4xQ), so it is almost always up in a fight.

I find it hard to take you seriously as an evelynn main when you state it is a buff. First of all, if you have landed E (especially with botrk), and 4 Q's your target is probably dead anyway. So you got a reset from the kll anyway. Meanwhile, gotta go fast allowed you to chase targets who had instant movement abilities such as every champion holding a flash. Your assumption is based purely on the idea that an enemy champion isn't going to react to evelynn. Remember, they see you before you can cast hate spike.

Very rarely have the soft resets worked for Evelynn, she literally gains little to no benefit from the soft reset and it doesn't help her mobility at all. Gotta go fast was supreme, and they nerfed it like they nerfed her damage because they don't want her to be able to chase and kill very easily. Watch any diamond/master/challenger evelynns. The soft reset rarely comes into play. It just does not work very well in practice.

Widder881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lmuxOnko,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-20T16:11:13.587+0000)

CDR is purely for the benefit of her Q, and that isn't the only tool she relies upon.

Having a shorter E and R CD is good too.

Probably because he didn't get one shot, and to be honest, Master yi shouldn't be losing to Evelynn currently, especially if you properly W reset his AA's.

This was in late Season 4 before Eve was buffed.

Evelynn doesnt have CC or the ability to dodge CC and it makes her much more vulnerable. Particularly because unless Master yi, she has no gap closer.

Evelynn has permanent stealth and that is one part of her gap closing. She can decide which fight she takes, and when she attacks.

disagree, you are considering only skill abilities, you aren't considering your autoa ttack which contribute a significant amount of damage.

No, I just look at the damage graph after the game which displays every damage.

MR is built by anyone melee, and most midlaners will have an item providing MR. Supports will also build a mikael/aegis to provide MR. You can't ignore it.

Again, I often buy some magic penetration, what is helpful because I do 2/3 or more magic damage. But sometimes something else is more important. Evelynn has endless DPS, what means that she often doesn't depend on that one combo does enough damage. It can be more important to buy a damage-utility item (Scimitar, Rylais, Zhonyas for example), which secures, that she can do damage long enough until the enemy is dead.

Not necessarily true. Champions with a low base AP ratio tend to benefit more from penetration than building AP.

The AP ratio to base damage comparison matters.

Err...her AP ratios are inferior to Malzahars. He has 80% AP on both Q and E, and 1.3 on his R and 1% per 100 AP on his W. Mpen is very effective period.

Malzahar needs

  • 375 AP to double the base damage of his Q
  • 800 AP to double the base damage of his W
  • 400 AP to double the base damage of his E
  • 423 AP to double the base damage of his R

Evelynn needs

  • 182 AP to double the base damage of her Q
  • 209 AP to double the base damage of her E
  • 2500 AP to double the base damage of her R, but this abilitys can't kill anyway

Because of this Evelynn can buy more AP until she gets to the point from where on penetration is more effective than AP.

Assassin Eve was the primary build prior to Ravage being changed to physical, and her ult being changed to current maximum health. Afterwards everyone went AD bruiser because her burst was inferior to other champions. So everyone went AD, and they will still go AD bruiser. She was reliant on her ratios in 4.13 to do damage, hitting her base damage here doesn't do ANYTHING to discourage building AD bruiser and only further discourages her from building AP assassin.

The value of tanky Evelynn is in her base damages. So a base damage nerf discourages to build tanky items, and therefore it indirectly encourages to buy damage items instead, AP, AD, on hit etc. doesn't matter. But AP is just the most effective damage stat for her imo.

A base damage nerf is extremely important It is the equivalent of losing roughly 30 AP at rank 5. That is an extremely painful nerf.

It is hard, but more if you don't buy damage. If you have 600 AP then 30 AP is not much. If you have 50 AP then 30 AP is much.

CC/kiting/higher burst damage is available to most champions.

I don't think so, but Eve has stealth, other champions don't have that.

You should, LCS is the bass of the changes. If people who are at the highest level no longer use a champion, this suggests the champion is inferior to other prospective options. We also see this occur at higher elos.

I would like to see Eves ratios buffed, until Assassin Eve is played in LCS, but Tank Eve kinda annoys me.

And I don't think that LCS players are the best Eve players. For me it often seems like they play her bad. And their builds are even worse. No, LCS players are nothing special for me. There are better players in Soloqueue.

I find it hard to take you seriously as an evelynn main when you state it is a buff. First of all, if you have landed E (especially with botrk), and 4 Q's your target is probably dead anyway. So you got a reset from the kll anyway. Meanwhile, gotta go fast allowed you to chase targets who had instant movement abilities such as every champion holding a flash. Your assumption is based purely on the idea that an enemy champion isn't going to react to evelynn. Remember, they see you before you can cast hate spike.

Very rarely have the soft resets worked for Evelynn, she literally gains little to no benefit from the soft reset and it doesn't help her mobility at all. Gotta go fast was supreme, and they nerfed it like they nerfed her damage because they don't want her to be able to chase and kill very easily. Watch any diamond/master/challenger evelynns. The soft reset rarely comes into play. It just does not work very well in practice.

The reset is not important against squishys in the late game, because they get bursted, but it is important against squishys earlier in the game and against tanky champions in the late game. In a fight that is longer than 3 seconds, and Evelynn has 40% CDR, it is a buff.

That is one reason (Q is the other reason) why 40% CDR is important already very early in the game, and you should not wait for something like a Black Cleaver later in the game. It is a big advantage to have 40% CDR already in the early mid game. I use Runeglaive+Ionian Boots and runes and masterys for it.

Surr20plz1 votes

Don't do it Riot.

ModAttysu The Poro1 votes

I mean out of all my Evelynn games I've gotten a pentakill twice as her in Normal PVP so I don't really see it. Probably cause I don't main her but I main her...?

(As in I don't main Jungle but when I DO go Jungle I go Evelynn)

Mongoose1 votes

she is still fucking disgusting with runeglaive liandrys and rylais

espcially rylais since q is 40% slow

More from Gameplay

More by Bears Dont Care