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Why bother posting in gameplay & balance

Bears Dont Care··97 votes·3,995 views

Let us be honest, based upon Riot's behavior, it is quite clear that the community, as large as it is, is going to be ignored in terms of feedback. This isn't to say they don't care, rather, it is a matter of two issues.

  1. Community is massive, everyone disagrees, let alone articulates a good argument.
  2. Most of the community isn't good enough to be considered worth listening to, which is unfortunate, but that is the case.

Balance regarding the game? That is where the pros tend to be heard as well as a smaller circle and their own internal testing. While it is an interesting thing to discuss matters of balance such as Lee Sin, let us be honest, the views Riot tends to hold are entirely different and reserved to itself.

It sounds defeatist, but let us be be truthful of the matter, even if you play the PBE, you are there to test and find bugs, not actually give feedback that will change something meaningful.

While I would like for a RIOT employee to chime in and say otherwise, it would be hard to consider seriously given statements such as Veigar's rework being "locked", Sona changes, Warwick changes, lack of Lee Sin changes despite acknowledging he is a problem, and various other issues.

59 Comments

Tennousu19 votes

Well, to be fair, as you stated, the community itself is indeed "massive." Despite what people post or cry about here on the boards, it only ever represents a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the LOL playerbase. And if you were a Riot employee, would you really want to step onto these boards and try to talk to people, when nearly every post (not all of them) is full of people screaming and blaming Riot as the worst company ever with terrible balancing?

Wheatloaf13 votes

People forget that a few hundred upvotes isn't the entire community.

Demonsolder212 votes

Well to be frank the boards represents a tiny portion of the player base.

toxıc sIut2 votes

Buh-but I got 200 upvotes! 200 is a big number discounting all the lurkers and behaved members of the community downvoting my shitty, whiny opinion!

YouLostMe10 votes

On top of that, the volume of the screaming is so high that even people who disagree can't voice it. For example, when a lee sin QQ thread gets popular, I roll my eyes and ignore it. Downvoting it does little good because there are like 3 at a time, posting in it will do nothing but draw rage and downvotes, new threads counter to it don't get anywhere near the front page so they don't have the same level of perceived support, etc.

I think the people working at Riot know that. If the entire community actually thought Lee Sin was bad for the game, there would be a change. But only a fraction of the community thinks that, and they happen to be a very loud fraction that scares away all the people who think he's interesting and fun.

Velasan3 votes

{quoted}

On top of that, the volume of the screaming is so high that even people who disagree can't voice it. For example, when a lee sin QQ thread gets popular, I roll my eyes and ignore it. Downvoting it does little good because there are like 3 at a time, posting in it will do nothing but draw rage and downvotes, new threads counter to it don't get anywhere near the front page so they don't have the same level of perceived support, etc.

I think the people working at Riot know that. If the entire community actually thought Lee Sin was bad for the game, there would be a change. But only a fraction of the community thinks that, and they happen to be a very loud fraction that scares away all the people who think he's interesting and fun.

Posting a second time to say I agree with you. Lee is a good champ with unique mechanics. The only reason I commiserate with lee qq threads is that he becomes so oppressive when ahead. Nothing wrong with the actual champ though. He has at least a few counters and items that work well against him.

YouLostMe3 votes

Yeah, I hate him for the same reason I hate Irelia and Jayce. Just too snowbally.

bureburebure1 votes

I think most people agree that he is a fun champion with a lot of play-making potential, they are just frustrated at how dominant he is atm.

things weren't really like this 2-3 years ago, lee sin was always a strong jungler but it was far more common to see nocturne, maokai, elise, etc when i was playing the game back then.

YouLostMe1 votes

It's not even that he's dominating. He just feels that way. If there's a Lee Sin on the enemy team at 90% of board members' ELO, you can beat him by buying wards and farming. People don't do that, then Lee Sin snowballs, and someone cries on the boards. Outside of diamond, Lee Sin's counter is upgrading your trinket before 20 minutes.

J4 is way more reliable, and more deserving of nerfs, which is why he actually got them. Lee Sin hate is just the product of a manic echo chamber.

aperson114 votes

Most player-focused company my ass. The only reason Riot comes on G&B is to tell us changes that they are about to release, and explain their technicalities. There's no conversation, no back-and-forth, no "well that would be a bad suggestion, since..."

Something seems to have been lost in the Boards transition...

Blam Blam10 votes

Hmmm, ignoring the player base...That sounds a lot like what happened to World of Warcraft coughGhostcrawlercough

TotalJerk2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Knockah You Out,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fnrk2ET6,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-02-20T06:22:08.501+0000)

Hmmm, ignoring the player base...That sounds a lot like what happened to World of Warcraft coughGhostcrawlercough

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Street

Street was hired by Blizzard Entertainment in February 2008, and was the lead systems designer on the MMORPG World of Warcraft until November 2013. He described his role at Blizzard as, "Systems design specifically is everything that is not level, story, quest, PvP or encounter design. My team handles everything from mechanics to items to trade skills to achievements to UI design."

Within that capacity, how did Ghostcrawler ruin World of Warcraft?

Blam Blam3 votes

Street worked in a similar capacity with Blizzard as he did with Ensemble as a designer.

  • From the exact same wikipedia article.

So you're trolling or are intentionally trying to show he had nothing to do with design...

I'd rather just call you a fanboi.

TotalJerk2 votes

That doesn't even remotely contradict my quote.

Saevum9 votes

So... you are suggesting that we let.. the ship sink without the... mayday?

Bears Dont Care40 votes

{quoted}

So... you are suggesting that we let.. the ship sink without the... mayday?

You can't shout mayday if the captain has decided to fry the radio.

Saevum6 votes

Edit: game still sinking. What's the plan?

Zmuecat2 votes

Save yourself and those around you. With a ship this size, you won't be able to save everyone.

Jeddy0174 votes

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOomXC5Uygs Just add a bunch of Rioters reflecting on their actions as the room fill with water,a whole LOT of toxic players fighting & flaming each other,E-sports players drowning in their LC$BIGPLAYS & a handful of nice players who gave their spots on the lifeboats to other players.

vIbvdOwbko7 votes

Don't bother trying to get Riot's attention on anything balance-related. Riot hasn't cared about the community's viewpoint on game balance for a long, long time.

Sinlaire5 votes

"Let us be honest, based upon Riot's behavior, it is quite clear that the community, as large as it is, is going to be ignored in terms of feedback."

Because clearly the Katarina and Tristana splash reworks just as a list starter had nothing do do with community outcry....

PickleBabah6 votes

They do really good in terms of artwork and stuff like that (not lore, however), but for gameplay and balance, that is another story.

What he should have said is "based on Riot's gameplay and balance team's behavior"

Shaabanglyy5 votes

{quoted}

They do really good in terms of artwork and stuff like that (not lore, however), but for gameplay and balance, that is another story.

What he should have said is "based on Riot's gameplay and balance team's behavior"

That's because in terms of gameplay and balance there are more things to consider besides "do the players like this change." Riot uses things like ACTUAL numbers and data to back up their changes. Yes, the Veigar changes hurt. But lets be honest, and instant cast AOE long duration stun is in fact a complicated thing to design and balance around.

Art on the other hand is PURELY about taste. If you draw a picture and no one likes it enough to buy it, then you just draw another picture more like what you want your customers to buy. Because its an aesthetic item. Its not essential to the health of the game. So the only thing that matters is if players like it.

Balance is not like this. A lot of people don't like balance changes, but it doesn't mean that it is not necessarily for the best in terms of the game etc.

As far as Lee Sin is concerned, Riot knows he's a problem and has said so. The issue is, as I have stated on like a million threads, Riot doesn't want to change an ICONIC champion that is loved by much of the community (yes, believe it or not, the 500 people that hate him all over the boards are in the minority) and that has a high skill floor to be used as the best of his potential, simply by making him unplayable. They don't want to change WHAT he does. And making it simply so that he does no damage and is unplayable is also a stupid fix.

Its time that we accept a few things about this game and the company. First of all, its not LoL of S1 or S2. However, just because you don't like it anymore, doesn't mean the game is failing. The LCS is a big part of Riots success and they as a COMPANY THAT EXISTS TO MAKE MONEY would be stupid to not act with the LCS in mind to some degree.

Riot doesn't hate us. I promise. Of course, the best way to show your frustration is to not spend any money. If enough people don't spend, Riot will listen. Then again, enough people are probably just silently playing and happy with the game that it probably stands to reason that the un-happy players are very much in the minority.

Nameless Voice5 votes

They've constantly gutted other champions when they got a tiny bit strong. Evelynn

Why was it okay for them, but not for Lee Sin?

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Eve's stealth is a broken mechanic. It was designed during the invisible spammable pink wards era. Now that pinks are one per player and visible, the intended counterplay for her stealth is no longer there.

Civil Dawn1 votes

That's the art team though, they're fine

Balance team is totally different people.

bureburebure1 votes

the only thing i have to complain about the art team is even with cheesecake in mind a lot of the female champs look like they have impossible spines and waistlines

buxom is one thing, wonky anatomy is another

Civil Dawn1 votes

True, but that's never going to change lol. Welcome to video game industry

SEKAI5 votes

No no no OP,

Riot listens, remember when they reverted Lee's gut on PBE (yer it really was a gut but let's be real, he deserves it, after all this time)?

THEY DO LISTEN, when they want to and when they like the sound of that certain opinion........

Baron of Bread3 votes

At least they didn't go through with the Morde changes that were on the PBE. I don't know if that decision was because of the community or not, but I like to think that we had at least some influence on it.

Rrett6 votes

Thinking that the community actually has any effect on the decisions riot makes is preposterous.

Minrog3 votes

I have been reading a bunch of posts on here the last few days. Most of the discussions have been surprisingly well thought-out. Recently I heard that they picked up the guy from Blizzard who got fired for halving the WoW playerbase while he was running things, so that's not a good sign.

But he's only one person and most of the Riot staff seems to care and not just be dialing it in. I think people in the posts I've read might be Riot employees on an alternate account, as well. It sort of makes sense that they would want to discuss things without getting trashed for being "part of the problem". I hope they are listening, but even if they aren't it's nice to see the variety of reasonable arguments for/against changes.

TwitchInMyPants3 votes

Tbh the boards aren't the whole communtiy and never will be, but really when people come to the boards they're either active thinking members of the community with lots of ideas or they're a normal player with something to complain about and both of those demographics should at least be given a bit of attention. Riot might as well just delete their boards, they don't care about what we have to say anymore.

maikokk3 votes

i think you are missing the point. this board isn't here so we can dictate to riot how to design their game. its here for discussion.

LoL Ergo Urgot2 votes

I have had a feeling of hopelessness for a while. Guess we just have to trust that riot will make things work in the end.

Velasan2 votes

Idk about that. I tried two long azir posts with no red attention back when they started tweaking his numbers. We as a community really need to step it up though and not just use this form as a new gd to vent.

I feel the op's pain though. During the viktor rework every single poster said don't touch his laser. First thing they changed.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

The problem with that idea of selecting a small group of individuals, is that there is no means to get within that group that is publicly known. For example, the smash community has this thing called the SBR, or smash back room, and they would screen out individuals to become a part of it Those individuals dictated tournament rules, organized tournaments, etc etc.

They were responsible for getting their game to EVO and MLG.

LOL doesn't have that with this community, nor do they intend to do so.

Saevum1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with that idea of selecting a small group of individuals, is that there is no means to get within that group that is publicly known. For example, the smash community has this thing called the SBR, or smash back room, and they would screen out individuals to become a part of it Those individuals dictated tournament rules, organized tournaments, etc etc.

They were responsible for getting their game to EVO and MLG.

LOL doesn't have that with this community, nor do they intend to do so.

Thank you for your answer.

League of Legends community does no have this cause: "it is not intended?". A further explanation cause i am incapable of visualizing the big picture of that phrase. If it is not much asking, of course.

Regulas2 votes

Statistics is such an important field to learn fine details of.

In any event if there's a reason it feels they don't listen to "community" comments it's because of a few factors:

  1. The very fact that someone is posting on the boards often indicated that they are angry over something (probably something that just happened in a match), **in essence the boards are dis-proportionality negative compared to the overall playerbase. **
  2. What holds true at one level of play or with one style of play etc. doesn't at others. People often think "this is a problem and they buffed it wtf" when at a different level it was actually really weak and needed the buff, and vice versa. This disparity between the effects means that any change can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. When you consider 1, this further accentuates how negative the boards appear
  3. **People erroneously perceive popularity as power. ** Popular low win rate characters like Lee Sin are seen as strong when they are actually really weak right now (At all levels of play his winrate struggles to reach 45%). In contrast if you look at a lot of "weak" characters they actually perform exceedingly well for those who do main them. If you look at the sketchy winrate data a lot of the least popular "weak" characters actually have the highest winrates. The point here being just cause you see a character a lot, and even just because the individual player did well with it, does not inherently mean that character is strong at all.
Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

Statistics is such an important field to learn fine details of.

In any event if there's a reason it feels they don't listen to "community" comments it's because of a few factors:

  1. The very fact that someone is posting on the boards often indicated that they are angry over something (probably something that just happened in a match), **in essence the boards are dis-proportionality negative compared to the overall playerbase. **
  2. What holds true at one level of play or with one style of play etc. doesn't at others. People often think "this is a problem and they buffed it wtf" when at a different level it was actually really weak and needed the buff, and vice versa. This disparity between the effects means that any change can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. When you consider 1, this further accentuates how negative the boards appear
  3. **People erroneously perceive popularity as power. ** Popular low win rate characters like Lee Sin are seen as strong when they are actually really weak right now (At all levels of play his winrate struggles to reach 45%). In contrast if you look at a lot of "weak" characters they actually perform exceedingly well for those who do main them. If you look at the sketchy winrate data a lot of the least popular "weak" characters actually have the highest winrates. The point here being just cause you see a character a lot, and even just because the individual player did well with it, does not inherently mean that character is strong at all.

I covered this in my opening post with a generic statement about the lack of unity and articulation of proper arguments. There are cases, however, where there are unified arguments and there are several posters who have provided much information and reason, but it goes ignored.

As I stated earlier, other communities had methods of having their input heard, such a method does not exist within LoL, and Riot doesn't have such intent, something they communicated earlier about their own lack of response.

Regulas2 votes

The fact that someone is taking the time to better write out their arguments doesn't change that often they are still only arguing that way because of an initial complaint, rather then that they just decided to analyse the characters arbitrarily and fairly came to their conclusion.

But I digress, My points aren't about dis-unity or articulation, it's about how really most of the posts on the forums are simply meaningless in so far as feedback is concerned, even many of the well thought out ones, because their base premise before argumentation is already taken from flawed assumptions (i.e. you think Lee is OP so you make a detailed analysis, the problem is that your trying to figure why he's OP and making the arguments fit your initial idea rather then just trying to figure out if he's actually OP).

The reds in contrast show enough activity to suggest that they do in fact read the forums, and I don't see how not pandering to every post and thread (regardless of detail) means they don't consider it.

Arveanor1 votes

You can't strictly speaking say it's ignored just point blank. These things are probably read and taken into account, but at the end of the day, even if everyone who is upset is upset about the same thing, that's still a tough call when there are tons of people happy about the same things.

RanmanReborn2 votes

That's because Riot spends most of their time posting and giving their attention to the Reddit pages where people will kiss their ass. Make a post like this on the League Reddit and it'll be downvoted into oblivion.

Meep Man1 votes

Ive had a Rioter comment on my post once when I suggested a Nautilus change.

Arch Mage Magnus1 votes

Considering the most agreed upon topic within the community is nerfing / re-working Lee Sin, yet Riot has not listened for over a year now, gives me the belief that they don't even care what the players think.

Starcall Casey1 votes

+1 Bump. It sucks that this is the reality of league because Riot has always stated that they love to hear feedback about balance and things, but yet are lying right to our faces...

Arveanor1 votes

I think the forums are a good space for riot to get feedback, but it's just one of their many tools for determining how people feel about the game. So I think it's beneficial to use the forums, but that doesn't mean that your suggestions or complaints are going to be directly (or at all) incorporated.

Headwrapper1 votes

Why do people think because they posted something, suddenly they're the majority. In most game boards, the people who post are the "vocal minority." A small group who is largely outspoken, vs. the majority of people who may have different views but don't post on the boards for various reasons.

Just as a personal note: I read through the boards and disagree with a lot of the whiney posts, but I don't post about it.

blueberrypancake1 votes

you are posting in Gameplay in Balance...

Cartman Bruh1 votes

By the time Riot decides to start listening to the community again it will be too late.

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