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Evelynn nerfs do not make much sense.

Bears Dont Care··31 votes·3,118 views

v4.13 Evelynn's Q deals less damage unless she builds more AD / AP (it scales better at higher levels). Q also costs less mana.

"Right now Evelynn's high base damage means she can go tanky while still blowing people up, so we're hoping she'll think more about her priorities with these changes. Basically if Evelynn wants to kill things quickly, she'll need to build offensively for it - if she wants to tank it out in the middle of fight, she'll have to itemize for that. Also, we know Evelynn's arguably not a fighter, but we put her here for the sake of better organization (nyah)."

HateSpike.jpg Q - Hate Spike
    MAGIC DAMAGE: 40/60/80/100/120 ⇒ 30/45/60/75/90
    ABILITY POWER RATIO: 0.45 ⇒ 0.35/0.4/0.45/0.5/0.55
    BONUS ATTACK DAMAGE RATIO: 0.5 ⇒ 0.5/0.55/0.6/0.65/0.7
    COST: 16/22/28/34/40 mana ⇒ 12/18/24/30/36 mana

Nerfed so she didn't hit as hard, scaling improved so her late game damage broke even essentially. Okay well, due to those changes in S4, along with Ravage being made PYSICAL, we saw AD BRUISER evelynn builds appear.

"5.6's changes saw Evelynn stealthily making waves as games went on, but still suffering in early skirmishes. To turn that suffering onto her opponents, we're returning some of her combat power."

Q - Hate Spike DAMAGE 30/45/60/75/90 ⇒ 40/55/70/85/100

You acknowledge the changes above hurt her combat ability badly because she saw very little usage and almost no usage at all at the start of s5.

PBE: 5.13 notes: Evelynn

Hate Spike (Q) damage decreased to 40/50/60/70/80 from 40/55/70/85/100

Now you go "well her late game damage is too high." Wait wait wait. What?

Season 4 was characterized by early game ganking. You hit Evelynn so she was late game damage, but this caused her to fall out of favor almost entirely.

S5 saw less early ganking, with Junglers becoming more tanky and more of a support-esque role. So you upped her base damage by 10 to help her compete with those tanky junglers and remain relevant throughout the game.

Now its "AD bruiser evelynn deals too much damage, we need to nerf her late game so that it is even weaker than it was in S4."

If everyone is getting tankier, and you have designed Evelynn to be stronger late game by increasing those ratios as hate spike is ranked, why are you then nerfing her late game? It is completely contradictory in terms of the champion's design and harmful towards the overall health and diversity of the game.

You don't want evelynn to deal damage late game, but you have designed her to be a damage dealer late game. On top of this, you acknowledged that the very changes you implemented in patch 4.13 were the primary cause of her almost completely disappearing from the pro scene. She only recently came back into favor, and that is only due to the fact that tank items enable her to actually do her job after you made her extremely squishy.

By nerfing her late game damage, you damage her viability as a jungler to the point that there is no reason to use her. She has only soft AOE CC, she does not have a stun anymore. Her passive is good for flanking which isn't as strong when you consider she has no hard form of initiation out of her ult, which will place her right in the middle of a fight.

So you have a champion who is meant to

  1. Initiate a fight and be in the thick of it.
  2. Has no CC.
  3. No gap closers just an MS boost that was also recently nerfed.
  4. Has even worse mid and late game damage than in S4 where junglers had greater damage.

Why would I ever play Evelynn when I can play Vi, Maokai, Sejuani, Reksai, and any other jungler who brings hard CC/utility?

Evelynn was a champion clearly intended to do damage late game, and damage is all she has in her toolkit because she was given nothing else as an assassin. Without it, she is nothing, and this was clear after 4.13. Why go back to it and make it no longer worth playing her?

If RIOT is going to state so proudly that it has over 100 champions, why is the effort being made to make only a handful of those champions viable or worth using? Particularly when the community is ignored unless their views line up with the pros?

30 Comments

Saianna12 votes

2 things I'd like to say:

  1. Evelynn does have damage, but she lacks nuke. Every assassin has it. It's 1 ability capable of dealing insane damage. It's job is to be a threat. Evelynn has her E. But she can't itemize properly for it which takes quite huge chunk of her power away. It's also point-blank range, which makes using it even harder. And because she lacks serious burst damage, Riot gave her her TANK-ultimate to "compensate".

  2. Evelynns ultimate. It isn't anything that ASSASSIN should have. It's badly designed, badly thought trough TANK ultimate/skill that was meant to just give her ANYTHING to actually not vaporize 1 second after she enters the battle. But then because she doesn't have great damage/burst/nuke she has to build even more tankish to actually use her R-shields to the fullest, which leads to Evelynn 2 AD/AP Items & rest as a Malphite in disguise.

It deals % current HP, which is slap in the face for a hitman class

it has INSANE COOLDOWN for what it actualy does. 2+ minutes for a SHIELD (AOE slow)?! Who thought that? Realy?!

This nerf only shows that balance team:

  • Doesn't know what to do with her, or
  • doesn't care about her, or
  • hates her and want her begone from Runterra
Troll for Trump1 votes

well that's one less prostitute. Who's next? Ahri Elise Urgot

Saianna1 votes

Both Ahri and Urgot ae pretty much fine. Kind of difficult to play for some, but by no means weak/UP.

Elise on other hand.. Hard to say. She kinda deals good damage, as long as you use only AA + Q in her spider form and maybe spider/stun on her human form.

If I were to decide what champion should be buffed OR definetely NOT nerfed then: Elise WW Tristana Taric

I've played them often before, now i just can't look at them straight in the face while saying "yes yes, you are fine champion"

Starcall Casey5 votes

I honestly Fucking Hate how Riot balances champions. "A Champion with no CC other then a SLOW ON HER ULTIMATE Has too much damage late game. Let's nerf her early-mid-late game all at once with this base damage nerf, make her clearing speed worse and making her not able to clear a buff by herself until late game, With this change We here at Riot feel that Evelynn, the worst champion in the game along side of Elise, will now become utterly useless and therefore Balanced. We did it guys, another champion gutted, high fives all around, now let's go watch LCS and see our favorite 20 champions and if any more then 20 are in rotation for getting picked, let's Balance them too."

CasterGilgamesh4 votes

well riot doesnt know what they want ev to fucking be i say we cut our losses and just remove her tankyness all together and buff her ap damage we have too much ad and tank junglers we need more fucking ap when will riot realize that they made the perfect assassin jungle yet they want her to be a tanky bruiser her ult does not help her purpose of being an assassin

Heckin Support3 votes

{quoted}

well riot doesnt know what they want ev to fucking be i say we cut our losses and just remove her tankyness all together and buff her ap damage we have too much ad and tank junglers we need more fucking ap when will riot realize that they made the perfect assassin jungle yet they want her to be a tanky bruiser her ult does not help her purpose of being an assassin

I've said it before and I'll say it again. She's having a huge identity crisis. Riot needs to decide what the hell they want her to be and work from there.

Twëek1 votes

She is finally a solid AP assassin with the current iteration of runeglaive. The nerfs to it and Eve's Q destroy both AP Eve and tank Eve. I really hope that for once, a Rioter sees a balance thread and reconsiders the tentative balance changes. There are a plethora of threads protesting them.

YuGiHo1 votes

well they have already said they dont even know what eve is at least form a lore perspective so it makes sens that they are unsure of what they want her do as a champion. now that i think about the are having the same problem with diana unsure if they want her to be a ap bruiser or assassin.

I really dont think eve will ever find balance, its sad because she is my favorite champion but she may be a lost cause..

MrButtermancer1 votes

What it looks like they want her to be is a really crappy hybrid assassin. But there's no way to itemize for significant hybrid damage with the kit she has or items that actually exist.

Runeglaive is obviously the jungle item they want her to buy, but with the way they want Eve to fight (badly, as a squishy assassin on the front line for extended periods with nothing but a shield) she'd almost be better off going with a Sated Devourer and a Nashor's. But that wouldn't work anyways, because she's too squishy, mana dependent, and immobile to get any use out of that playstyle before exploding.

Best Eve was full AP Eve. It was the most fun, it was the most tense, and it was actually the easiest to kill back when mages had targeted damage and could burst.

darkdill3 votes

The issue with Evelynn, I feel, is her ability to make cheese plays. For instance, you could get a Blue or Red leash for your first camp, then sneak into the enemy jungle and kill their jungler after they get beat up by a jungle camp, stealing their Red/Blue in the process. And they CAN'T SEE YOU COMING ahead of time, because it's pretty much impossible to get a pink ward at level 1 without shooting yourself in the foot.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Did you even read OP before posting?

darkdill4 votes

Yeah, and my point is that they nerfed her because her cheese potential and ability to bypass green wards REQUIRES that her damage output suck compared to other assassins. Her unique gimmick is too powerful tactically.

The simple problem is that permastealth is toxic. Eve needs to lose it and get short bursts of stealth tied to her W, much like Kha'Zix's R. Then she can actually have some damage power without being obnoxious.

Vistha Kai3 votes

They won't remove it. That's what Eve had before she got reworked into her current kit.

YuGiHo1 votes

eve is the stealth queen, destined to have a stealth mechanic better than any other past, present, or future.

Riot made that pretty clear when they reworked her and twitch.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

That's the problem, she needs that tumor excised before she can be buffed but Riot simply won't go through with the operation

Troll for Trump2 votes

well would you be complaining if xin zhao counter jungler you at level 3?

Vekkna2 votes

And the counterplay to that is preemptively invading her on virtually any tanky meta jungler. Another thing you're missing is that 1) you can't see ANY counter-jungler while taking the majority of your camps, and 2) Evelynn is more vulnerable while clearing than virtually any other jungler because of how much damage she takes from monsters, not being in stealth, and being the squishiest duelist in the game.

In other words, if Evelynn is on the team, you ward HER camps, not yours. Or you play Nunu, Sej, Naut, Rengar, etc. and farm her with counterganks and counterjungling.

The funny thing is that Teemo can do the exact same cheese plays at buffs as you're talking about here. He's faster, safer, scales better, team fights better, has stronger objective control and tower push, clears camps just as well, benefits from jungle enchants more, and has stronger map presence. But if you jungle Teemo, people dodge and flame. If you jungle Evelynn, Riot nerfs her.

LaceUp232 votes

Yeah, not too many things rito does make sense.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

Hopefully someone from riot will acknowledge the issue

jaymc11301 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R4xBbmHU,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-13T23:25:30.558+0000)

Hopefully someone from riot will acknowledge the issue

They won't... cuz its a non issue...

Mr Sir Lebowski2 votes

This is rather dissapointing. Those number shifts are rather large.

chide da jungler2 votes

Stealth is a broken mechanic that is too hard to balance around.

Ultîma2 votes

This is an extremely well thought-out post and highlights what is possibly the biggest elephant in the room concerning Evelynn; she is an assassin, with the kit of a tank, without strong initiation or adequate damage to fill either roles. Her ultimate and Q are two abilities who would be amazing in a fighter meant to stick in a fight to put out constant DPS. Evelynn should be reworked into being an opportunity assassin, who emerges from darkness to assault someone before quickly retreating back to the shadows before being punished. Until her abilities are changed (or the values/passives heavily tweaked) Evelynn will continue to have an identity crisis and suffer from completely schizophrenic balance changes.

Cenobite Azaziel2 votes

All I read from riot when Eve is on the cutting board is : "She is viable.Better nerf" "But we already cut off her hands and busted her kneecaps!" "NERF HER ALREADY! Even it means turning her into a vegetable. An invisible vegetable!"

Troll for Trump1 votes

Well Riot is high... "We are going to rework WW, Poppy and Yorick" They had ideas for WW and a kit planned for him while they had yorick concept down(something about his family heirloom shovel )_) )

Hmm shyvana jungle is way too broken. Let's just nerf it so top shyv is unviable XD

whup we buffed all the Ap items, better nerf Ap xin Zhao. Yeah xin nerfs. Hmm seems legit.

Trundle. just look at the state hes in.

Mr Sir Lebowski1 votes

People who are claiming that it's impossible to balance around stealth are wrong

She is balanced around stealth by the fact that she has no initiation or CC aside from her ult. Her initation IS her stealth. She needs to get that close in order to do damage and without her stealth she would need to be given something else. Trying to rush in with W will not work. You would know that if you play eve much. Where she really shines is when there is say a top lane nassus who can put his massive slow on the opponent and then as Eve you can walk in and wreck him. If you find yourself camped by eve put down a pink ward instead of a green ward and have your jungler gank the opponent when they try and kill it.

Anyway I can't say how much these nerfs are going to effect her. Ultimately I do build her with devourer and always have. I tend to follow it up with trinity but it will be frozen gauntlet some games. Will have to wait and see after this goes into effect I guess.

I'm always hoping that none of the champions I like ever get played in the pro scene because it's pretty much a nerf sentence.

jaymc11301 votes

I don't seem to see any problems with Eve atm... if anything she probably needs some nerfs... Not that I want my freelo gutted, just that shes easily one of the most overpowered champs in the meta atm since she has mad early game pressure while being able to transition into a tanky support role and be effective in teamfights or as a split or pick threat. Shes hard to balance because ever since the initial rework season 1 shes had the games most gamebreakingly op passive.

Bears Dont Care3 votes

{quoted}

I don't seem to see any problems with Eve atm... if anything she probably needs some nerfs... Not that I want my freelo gutted, just that shes easily one of the most overpowered champs in the meta atm since she has mad early game pressure while being able to transition into a tanky support role and be effective in teamfights or as a split or pick threat. Shes hard to balance because ever since the initial rework season 1 shes had the games most gamebreakingly op passive.

  1. Anecdotal evidence is not good evidence...at all. Primarily because anyone else can post a shot of their Evelynnw ith a 43% winrate.

  2. In what way is she freelo or deserving of nerfs. Nothing in your argument specifies why, you make the statement that you "feel" that he is overpowered.

  3. Evelynn applies global map pressure through stealth, but if you ward her camps, that becomes a non-issue because her stealth breaks on attack. Her early game damage was also buffed, because it was gutted during S4 and her ratios increased to make her a late game carry. The issue is they are now attacking her late game damage by nerfing her hatespike by 20 base damage. You lose 60 damage from casting hate spike three times, this is a massive loss. Imagine if Pantheon or Talon lost 60 base damage from their Q? If they want Evelynn to be late game damage, as their design illustrates, they should deal with her early game damage only.

  4. Her kit makes her tanky support. It has always been that way since they gutted her AP assassin role.

jaymc11301 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R4xBbmHU,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2015-07-17T14:02:03.745+0000)

  1. Anecdotal evidence is not good evidence...at all. Primarily because anyone else can post a shot of their Evelynnw ith a 43% winrate.

  2. In what way is she freelo or deserving of nerfs. Nothing in your argument specifies why, you make the statement that you "feel" that he is overpowered.

  3. Evelynn applies global map pressure through stealth, but if you ward her camps, that becomes a non-issue because her stealth breaks on attack. Her early game damage was also buffed, because it was gutted during S4 and her ratios increased to make her a late game carry. The issue is they are now attacking her late game damage by nerfing her hatespike by 20 base damage. You lose 60 damage from casting hate spike three times, this is a massive loss. Imagine if Pantheon or Talon lost 60 base damage from their Q? If they want Evelynn to be late game damage, as their design illustrates, they should deal with her early game damage only.

  4. Her kit makes her tanky support. It has always been that way since they gutted her AP assassin role.

Likeamaws, the account I play on primarily. JayMC is just a form smurf. Look it up. You are bronze 3 trying to talk game play and balance with a guy who until 9 or 10 days ago was in master tier.

No back talk bronzie. I don't even need to use an actual argument with you, mostly because you would be incapable of understanding it. Seriously... bronze 3... trying to talk champion balance... please, no. Just stop.

Edit: screen shot with 43% win rate eve... lmfao. Are you also blind? Wowowowowowowowowow. TIL 76% = 43%. Thanks bronzie!

Bears Dont Care2 votes

{quoted}

Likeamaws, the account I play on primarily. JayMC is just a form smurf. Look it up. You are bronze 3 trying to talk game play and balance with a guy who until 9 or 10 days ago was in master tier.

This is a person attack, you aren't at all addressing my argument, you choose instead to point out the rank I have on this account instead of dealing with the argument I provided.

A champion whose ratios scale as you place points in them, especially when it was changed from what? 45% to a total of 70%, as well as the patch notes, suggest she is a LATE GAME scaling champion.

Nerfing her LATE GAME base damage suggests they don't want her doing damage late game. This is why it is an issue, it is a contradiction of design philosophy.

Edit: screen shot with 43% win rate eve... lmfao. Are you also blind? Wowowowowowowowowow. TIL 76% = 43%.

http://imgur.com/gallery/MWt5gfc

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