There is no excuse for a jungler to be 2 levels below mid lane and top lane. It makes it impossible to recover a lane when they fall behind because now you're 3-4 levels below the enemy mid laner and makes team fighting impossible.
The only lane that is possible to gank becomes bot lane, which is already the focus for much of the game.
Static Duck14 votesI hate the new jungle with a passion. Falling way behind solo laners and feeling like I have no impact on the game is one of the reasons why. I played a lot of top lane/jungle in the past season (unranked, blind and draft), and became aware of a point in the game in which a fed, or even ahead, top could 2v1 the jungle and enemy top. It seemed to be around when the fed top hit L9, and the enemy top was two levels behind, the jungler being some level between the two.
Now it seems that point happens so much earlier. If the enemy solo laner, particularly top laner, kills my solo laner, manages to take a wave, and backs/buys, the lane more often than not is over. Enemy has level advantage, item advantage over me and lane opponent, proceeds to deny exp/gold and snowballs from there. This usually happens early to me, the enemy solo laner hitting 6 while I'm 4 in the jungle and my solo laner also Pre-6. Now, I'm not saying we get wiped in a 2v1, but I can no longer make a meaningful difference in a gank. In other words, we go 1 for 1 in a 2v1, meaning the enemy who is already ahead basically stays ahead, or we get nothing and everyone has to back, keeping things basically how they were with the enemy laner ahead. Ive heard that one should never gank a losing lane, but if nothing is done against a hard losing lane you get snowballed on and lose the game off of that lane. If I don't deal with the situation, it snowballs, while if I do take time trying to slow down the enemy solo lane, the enemy jungler wreaks havoc on the other two lane, sets up objectives and takes my jungle with impunity.
Also, camps hit too hard. I can't wait around forever for a laner to set up a gank, but unless I'm playing a hyper-sustain jungler, once I've committed to taking a camp, my health is way too low afterwards to go into a solo lane vs people that have a 200 HP advantage against me anyways due to level advantage. So if I can't gank at full HP after backing because my team pushes too far (this is a constant problem, people have trouble setting up ganks.), and I commit to clearing, it seems I'm too unhealthy to enter a lane if an opportunity presents itself. I am aware I could sit around and counter gank, but when literally all 3 lanes are pushed, I could also be waiting on the wrong lane in the wrong side of jungle or waiting on an afk farmer that is going to out scale me if I can't exert pressure.
The most disheartening sound I hear is when my solo laner gives up first blood while im halfway through taking my second jungle camp. Jungling this season feels like a chore, and an absolute act of faith in your solo laners to not feed and set the table for you. Maybe the double charge in smite will change things, but I'm frustrated as hell that Riot has seemingly sat on their hands when it comes to improving the quality of life of junglers, while making the jungle harder and raising the bar on who could actually clear jungle. They took away the 45s CD on Rangers which everyone was using to pick up the jungle buffs and actually not have the jungle wreck you, and they announce the charge system while waiting forever to implement it while everyone has to deal with the current god-awful jungle. It so often feels like all I can do is repeatedly show up bot lane where we are all about the same level and hope I can take a dragon off of whatever scrum ensues.
BattleBalladeer2 votesThis reminds me that in certain matchups when I go Top, I actually have to rely on the enemy jungler ganking me for a kill. If toplane is a stalemate and someone squishy like Yi or Eve comes around I just kill them and run back to my base, ignoring my toplane opponent so I can come back for them with my advantage.
f00G3MxfPP6 votesJungling has become kind of a support/utility role. Sightstone is being purchased on junglers. Tank items after their jungle item, no offense (meaning that they're being used for their cc/utility rather than damage). If you look at higher elo play or the ESL series today, something that really sticks out is how jarvan is being played completely differently in jungle/lane. Toplane or midlane, you see hydra, last whisper, ghostblade, etc. Jungle you see sightstone, randuin's, locket. As a laner, you get to smack champions with your dunk. As a jungler, when a laner comes into your jungle, you have to run. If your laner responsible for the roam can't help because they got killed twice, and bot/mid/top is busy/saying fuck jungler (happens a lot in solo queue), then they take your camps/kill you, and you're unable to get farm/have a way to catch up from there.
@what the guy said above me amen
DrinkMoreWhiskey4 votesStop playing this jungle the same way you played season 4 jungle. Problem? Solved. You can't chain gank with 0 attention to your mobs any more. It's not Brain surgery.
junglerboy1612 votesI 100% agree. However, if you fall behind (failed gank, stolen buff, or maybe an actual death) it is brutally punishing to try and catch back up with camps. They deal huge damage when you are behind in levels and the longer respawns make it nearly impossible to catch up.
Bears Dont Care6 votes[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f4hpMwc6,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-12T12:46:09.125+0000)
Stop playing this jungle the same way you played season 4 jungle. Problem? Solved. You can't chain gank with 0 attention to your mobs any more. It's not Brain surgery.
Stop givi g advice for a role you dont play. Its not brain surgery its basic.algebra. Jungler exp is extremely low, to the point that an enemy.laner ca .enter the jungle and kill anyone not named lee sin due to the 2 level difference.
DrinkMoreWhiskey3 votesStop givi g advice for a role you dont play. Its not brain surgery its basic.algebra. Jungler exp is extremely low, to the point that an enemy.laner ca .enter the jungle and kill anyone not named lee sin due to the 2 level difference.
A role I don't play? I literally play nothing but jungle. Stop giving advice when you're a silver 5 baddie.
MikeYeungsSmite5 votes[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f4hpMwc6,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-12T12:46:09.125+0000)
Stop playing this jungle the same way you played season 4 jungle. Problem? Solved. You can't chain gank with 0 attention to your mobs any more. It's not Brain surgery.
Implying you can farm and keep up
DrinkMoreWhiskey1 votesThe only time you should find yourself falling behind is if you're dying to much. Are you dying to much? I think we found your problem.
MikeYeungsSmite1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f4hpMwc6,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2015-01-13T23:18:08.736+0000)
The only time you should find yourself falling behind is if you're dying to much. Are you dying to much? I think we found your problem.
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/28852901 man, my jungler deaths are so high. Oh wait what.
3-7 vs 20-5 (and 4-1 on bunu), i wonder who of us 2 dies and who doesnt. XP is sheit unless you play a really quick farmer, like, oh, vi? Try a weaker jungler for fun.
DrinkMoreWhiskey1 votesYou mean like the yi and rammus that I main? Please tell me more about jungling with your 40% jungle win rate in ranked. Ironically all vi games. But congrats on fluffing your lolking recent match history with unranked games then bragging I guess.
MikeYeungsSmite1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f4hpMwc6,comment-id=00040002000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-13T23:28:49.204+0000)
You mean like the yi and rammus that I main? Please tell me more about jungling with your 40% jungle win rate in ranked. Ironically all vi games. But congrats on fluffing your lolking recent match history with unranked games then bragging I guess.
Pls talk about winrate when you got about 30x as many ranked games as me total and still cant get higher mmr.
Most of my small size sample (srsly, 20 games) games were in s4 (like 5-6 months ago when i tilted p5 promo>g2). Vi is broken AF in s5. And we talking s5, not s4
And even with ''40% w/l'' i pull a better kda outta my ass than you do.
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/eune/24000581#ranked-stats is the account i recently played vi/annie/vayne/janna on in ranked, still wanna talk deaths?
ps: wtf, i counted, im 32-24 in jungle~`
DrinkMoreWhiskey1 votesOMG you can get a good kda as a plat player when you're playing against low / mid golds and unranked games? Do you like want a cookie?
MikeYeungsSmite1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f4hpMwc6,comment-id=0004000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-13T23:51:22.568+0000)
OMG you can get a good kda as a plat player when you're playing against low / mid golds and unranked games? Do you like want a cookie?
Nothing else to say mister 6000 rankeds low plat?
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/eune/24000581#matches/1068379668 Low golds? http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/28852901#matches/1917381123 low golds??
My mmr>yours
DrinkMoreWhiskey1 votesAnd yet I have a diamond account and a plat account both higher ranked than yours baddie.
I guess gold 2 and plat 5 aren't bad.
MikeYeungsSmite1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f4hpMwc6,comment-id=000400020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-14T00:01:15.963+0000)
And yet I have a diamond account and a plat account both higher ranked than yours baddie.
I guess gold 2 and plat 5 aren't bad.
Sure, post on it
ps: get a life, 6k games, sheit
Back OT tho.
DrinkMoreWhiskey1 votesAh "you have no life" the baddies fallback.
Talk pretty tough for someone who can't even make Low platinum other than as a support main.
Make diamond in the jungle and then you can have an opinion. Hell manage better than a 40% win rate in plat and maybe you can talk. Till then play your support and let the grown ups talk.
MikeYeungsSmite1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f4hpMwc6,comment-id=00040002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-14T00:54:47.449+0000)
Ah "you have no life" the baddies fallback.
Talk pretty tough for someone who can't even make Low platinum other than as a support main.
Make diamond in the jungle and then you can have an opinion. Hell manage better than a 40% win rate in plat and maybe you can talk. Till then play your support and let the grown ups talk.
33-24=50%+ son, wu is also my jungler, xin is my top^'
+we're the same mmr^' Where's your dia?
Grown up with 6k rankeds, tldr no work.
Bears Dont Care1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Real Kowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f4hpMwc6,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2015-01-13T23:18:08.736+0000)
The only time you should find yourself falling behind is dying to much. Are you dying to much? I think we found your problem.
That isnt the discussion. The issue is lane exp vs jungler exp. At the moment the disparity is very large, and while i likr yhe dificult jungle, i also believe thst it penalizes a player too greatly. Early ganking is.mitigated by monster strength and having only 2 pots. A jungler should be able to make a comrback in rxp as laners do
Pumbarg3 votesI never liked the idea of junglers but it just sounds like you are falling behind due to bad runes/jungle routes.
Bears Dont Care8 votesI never liked the idea of junglers but it just sounds like you are falling behind due to bad runes/jungle routes.
Um...no...mathematically junglers receive a lot less gold and a lot less exp. There is absolutely no way for a jungler to keep up in exp even with multiple kills.
imonly4noobcakes2 votesJg's get way more gold...why do you think jungle mobs are worth so much???
Bears Dont Care11 votesJg's get way more gold...why do you think jungle mobs are worth so much???
... What? No they don't. Jungler's receive far less gold than laners and less exp.
Did you just make a sock puppet account to make the same retarded statement?
Static Duck10 votesAgree, camps now spawn every 1:40 instead of every 50 seconds, take longer to clear, less money and exp in jungle overall.
Altricad1 votesI'm quite happy with the jungle difficulty tbh. It makes sense that some champs are "meant" to jungle. ( Imagine seeing
jungle continously for 3 games before pre-season).
On the other hand, they could definitely buff the upgraded hunter's machete more, so that junglers with in-built sustain or damage could get a lead over other junglers.
Meaning, these guys
only have to suffer through their first clear and after buying their upgraded machete, not worry about sustain.
THe XP is totally another issue tho, camps give very little XP after the first clear that you're better off sitting in the bush and leeching XP from the laner.
Joe Dredd10 voteslol, you're so wrong it hurts
imonly4noobcakes1 votesI agree it sounds like he is doing his route funny that he is not getting levels and experience needed. I have a set route I do at start,and gank as needed. The only time I get behind is if enemy is really aggressive in more than one lane and I have to neglect farming to gank.
azrolator1 votesI agree it sounds like he is doing his route funny that he is not getting levels and experience needed. I have a set route I do at start,and gank as needed. The only time I get behind is if enemy is really aggressive in more than one lane and I have to neglect farming to gank.
I think you pointed out the real problem. If your lanes need more ganks and are behind. Then you take out more time from jungle, and since they are behind, ganks are going to be less successful. Too much wasted time, but if your lanes all lose turrets and vastly superior enemies are in your jungle, then it goes bad too. There is no real way back for a jungler who falls behind. A laner can play safe, learn from mistakes, make good trades and still make a comeback. Even sitting under the turret they are gaining exp.
Where can a jungler make the gold and exp? Your adc on blue is probably taking at least one of rocks and red. Your mid or top or support is taking blue. 4 camps around every couple minutes just isn't going to cut it. Doesn't matter if you get 20-40 gold more than the laner and need stacks for weapon, they will take it anyway. At this point even if your lanes aren't behind and you are, they will likely get the kills on ganks. From my experience this season, if jungle falls behind early, then they just build tank eq and become longer lasting fodder because it is all over for them usually.
imonly4noobcakes1 votesYea I had a bad game where the enemy jungler took my blue at start because my teammate refused to ward and ignored my request. He kept taking my buffs and I quickly fell behind. No was I mad? NO I saw that the enemy was smart to do so and he outplayed me, but what burned my butt was when my team mates started to then take my buffs and jungle farm...and saying I sucked.....like it was my fault our game snowballed. I was reported at the end for feeding, and toxic...even though I didn't have the worst KDA, and was trying to be nice to team.
Buffalo of Lies3 votesI'm not playing jungle until some kind of change happens. Having to deal with new clear paths is one thing, but longer respawn times, lower gold and exp, and higher smite cooldowns don't translate into a good game, especially for champs like j4 who have a slow start and get destroyed by counterjungles.
MetalGearTeemu2 votesJunglers can't just rule the flow of the game from 1-18. What a fucking shame.
welcome to mortality "le most important role"
Bears Dont Care3 votesJunglers can't just rule the flow of the game from 1-18. What a fucking shame.
welcome to mortality "le most important role"
That's cute, because laners make a significant impact on the game from 1-18 through roaming and teamfighting. Junglers seemingly aren't allowed, because people like you, feel its unfair. Congrats, your complaints were heard and now you must deal with the fact that if YOUR jungler is behind, then he stays behind. So really, you only hurt your own gameplay.
You're just shit at farming. I'm usually behind by a level, even, or ahead of my solo laners when I'm jungling, from Warwick to Amumu.
Implying anything you said is mathematically true. If we consider the possibility of clearing all 6 camps before 100 seconds (easily done for amumu, elise and evelynn), you will receive less gold and exp than a laner does over the same amount of time.
So you are flat out lying.
S4 jungle had less exp than laners. S5 jungle has less exp than s4 jungle and hgher respawn timers, yet you're a level ahead? Please, you're full of it bro.
Mediocre Joe2 votesI have found that early lvl I can keep up fine to lanes but as you get closer to lvl 8 your xp gained in the jungle just isn't enough and the laners start to pull ahead.
h3gXrKmW8f2 votesIts more of the fact that you don't know how to jungle no offense, Theres certain times when you should gank lanes, Like when you buy items or you know where a enemy jungler is. OGN can keep up in levels and ganks. If you play off meta junglers then there's the problem. You can but you'll suffer sustain or ganks. Kha,Lee,Elise,J4 are all good who can sustain and gank efficiently. And I honestly doubt your mid lamer is down 3-4 levels. 2 at the most and if he is then you shouldn't be team fighting in the first place. Cut your losses , he's worth no gold if he truly is 3-4 levels down. Just my 2 cents, I have like 500 games jungling in ranked.
Bears Dont Care2 votesIts more of the fact that you don't know how to jungle no offense,
No offense is the exact same as saying "I am about to say something really moronic, so excuse my stupidity." No, you're not excused, and the rest of your post is non-sensical as well. The entire argument is entirely about the exp/gold being provided to junglers whenever they farm. It went from 300 in Season 4, down to 200 in season 5. In season 4, a jungler could keep up with a mid laner, at worst, being a level low if they ganked frequently/farmed inefficiently.
In Season 5, if you spent your entire time farming, you will always be 1 level to 2 levels below the mid laner. You will be 4 levels below the enemy mid laner if they have landed a kill or two, simply because of the amount of exp gained at lower levels.
And I honestly doubt your mid lamer is down 3-4 levels.
This was not said, no offense, but you should read better before contributing your opinion.
Your entire argument is based upon things that were never said. You are discussing ganking, I am discussing the actual jungle itself, if you cannot keep up ith the conversation nor contribute, then you should excuse yourself.
Fact of the matter is, junglers receive a lot less exp than they used to, roughly 30% less if not more based upon the increased timers as well as counter jungling. This is why Nunu is amazing in the currently jungle as well as Lee sin You set someone's jungler behind, you can keep them behind the ENTIRE game.
SeargentAnus2 votesThis is a very dangerous line to play with. While I do think that it is low atm I don't think it should be raised that much. It'll just make certain early game junglers even more oppressive.
HeroSaitama1 votesjust tax guys that exp/gold thats what i do lol
Xtremey1 votesrito pls make respawn timers on camps 75 seconds
Magic Mo1 votesYou're just shit at farming. I'm usually behind by a level, even, or ahead of my solo laners when I'm jungling, from Warwick to Amumu.
As though we need to give top and bot laners a further incentive to start a jungle camp before going to lane.
ArkenStorm1 votesReally though. Although honestly it doesn't need to be increased that much if respawn timers went down to 60/75 seconds instead of 100 seconds.
Desmond Law1 votesWhimsical thought: Blue sentries, red cinderlings, small chickens, and small krugs auto attacks deal 2% of your current health on hit. Blue golem, red brambleback, large chicken, and large krug deal 3% of your missing health on hit.
SexyTaylorSwift1 votesI don't know. Maybe it is because I am only ranked gold tier, but I think the jungle is fine. I don't really have a problem doing it lol. I mean, with the bitching about Lee and J4, you really want to make them stronger? What? Nor do I really want my team taking early jungle camps from me because they give higher exp and gold. No thanks.
azrolator1 votesIf you are awesome at this game then grats to you but being top 10 percent doesn't mean your opinion or gameplay means more than everyone else. Most people aren't in the top ranks. If you are great and you play with other great players, then you are pretty much the odd man out and your opinion of gameplay doesn't carry more weight since fewer people are playing your type of game. I don't mean this to anyone specifically, just in general to the people who think that nobody else deserves a fun game experience.
The majority of us are playing a game where you can't always count on your team. People make mistakes. In this game, a mid assassin gets a couple kills on your mid laner. You are already behind in levels, because jungle exp is jungle exp. You can try to gank now, with both of you low in levels, you with worse eq because the jungle item isn't cost efficient as lane eq, and hope you can somehow kill this untargetable champ that can probably burst you both down. You can sit under your mid's turret with him and let your jungle sit idle. You can just let his turret fall and farm your own jungle and wait for fed mid and jungle to invade and kill you. You could spend all your money from the camps on wards so you don't die from invasions as much but of course won't have any eq. Or you can go camp another lane and give up your jungle and hope that your ganks are successful and you get the kills because you won't be gaining exp as fast as everyone else and you will have to get kills for gold to compensate for the lack of levels. This is pretty much every game when both teams pick assassin mids and they suicide on each other in a race to be the first strong enough to go wipe the entire enemy team. Not fun.
It seems that they wanted to create a jungle where the jungler might not be ganking as much and give variety to junglers. But from what I have seen so far it is almost always the opposite. In S4 if you got too far behind, you could go back to your jungle and farm farm farm. In preseason S5, if you get too far behind, the only way out is ganking. And a too far behind jungler doing non-stop ganks is not good for anyone on the team.
EDIT: Realized how longwinded I was. Jeez!
TL;DR: Regular games there is not enough exp and gold from the jungle to keep up, much less catch up.