Dynamic Queue DOES NOT make the game revolve more around teamwork/cooperation.

WoonStruck·Jul 9, 2016·131 votes·3,944 views

It only encourages it more among premades and makes matches unbalanced if the other team doesn't intend to communicate on the same level (not all premades do) as well.

Unless your individual ability was significantly above your MMR in Solo/Duo, you had to focus on teamwork and cooperation just as much, if not more, than the current Dynamic Queue environment.

Stop using 'teamwork' and 'cooperation' as an excuse for keeping Dynamic Queue when its existed the entire time, with or without premades.

If you have legitimate reasons for why Dynamic Queue should stay, please comment.

No, wanting to play with friends is not a valid reason. That's what normals and team queues (5v5/3v3) are (were) for. The matchmaking unbalance (loss of ranked integrity) is not worth you wanting to have fun in a mode that's supposed to be focused around pure competition.

No, Role Select is not a valid reason. That could easily be implemented for Solo Queue as well, solving the large majority of Solo Queue's issues.

155 Comments

jaymc1130Jul 9, 201639 votes

If anything DQ has discouraged teamwork as teams are only willing to work with their premade members and ignore or berate the others who are not part of the party.

GodhriJul 9, 201618 votes

I don't know. I've been berated, but I don't think it was the result of them being in a premade. People have always been negative. To attribute being berated to a neutral concept like a premade seems to be a bit far fetched.

WoonStruckJul 9, 201614 votes

Basically this.

The reason Dynamic Queue doesn't reduce toxicity. You still have players dealing with others that they do not know in an anonymous community.

Not to say that Solo is any better in that regard; just that its not a 'boon' of Dynamic Queue.

Electric BuyersJul 10, 20162 votes

This^

If anything, an increase in ranked players has increased the actual toxicity. People behind keyboards are just shittier than irl, just like people in cars are shittier people. There is a layer of protection that allows you to remove your filter. The problem is that actual toxicity and reported toxicity are totally different. Riot cannot produce numbers based on anything besides reported numbers. Unfortunately another flaw of DQ.

UnvictusJul 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

If anything DQ has discouraged teamwork as teams are only willing to work with their premade members and ignore or berate the others who are not part of the party.

Exactly, and Riot has the nerve to say toxicity levels have dropped. Lol premades just gang up on solo players and use them as a scape goat for the reason they lost. Cause if you are in a premade you never do anything wrong.

Mojihito666Jul 9, 201621 votes

Riot : we want to encourage teamwork and want a game to be new sport. Riot : we are removing ranked 5's.

Now you know it was just all bullshit, changes to queue had nothing to do with "teamwork" it was all about retention of casuals cause game was starting to die.

franticFurballJul 9, 20163 votes

The irony, when the supposed fix accerlerates the condition it was supposed to mend :D

GodhriJul 9, 201612 votes

Valid reasons as to why Dynamic queue should stay:

I want to play in a competitive mode/environment with my friends. Ranked Integrity is still very strong. The only difference now is that the difficulty to climb has gone up thus standards for skill level and team play have changed. People have difficulty adjusting to this change; thus the barrage of complaints about Dynamic Queue on the forums such as yours.
I am a solo queue individual, but I do like the occasional ranked game with friends.
I'm still able to carry some games against premades; if I can do it, so can you.
Games are meant to be fun, entertaining past times which usually means spending time with friends as well. Dynamic queue allows for this to happen in a competitive environment.
Teamwork and Cooperation was never an excuse. It is the reason for Dynamic queue. They never stated that either of those two did not exist prior to Dynamic Queue. Dynamic Queue is supposed to encourage more of it.
Consider this: You got a game going and you + 3 others are cooperating well, but you got 1 troll up in top lane doing nothing but pushing top lane. You and your team decide to push with the troll and then win the game. This isn't much different from Dynamic queue. It can still happen in Dynamic Queue with the exception that there are premades now.
There are far bigger issues with the game than Dynamic Queue.
Dynamic Queue and Solo Queue doesn't matter to me. I just wanted to give my two cents. Whether or not they keep it is irrelevant to me.

rtbf221651412Jul 9, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Valid reasons as to why Dynamic queue should stay:

I want to play in a competitive mode/environment with my friends. Ranked Integrity is still very strong. The only difference now is that the difficulty to climb has gone up thus standards for skill level and team play have changed. People have difficulty adjusting to this change; thus the barrage of complaints about Dynamic Queue on the forums such as yours.

I am a solo queue individual, but I do like the occasional ranked game with friends.

I'm still able to carry some games against premades; if I can do it, so can you.

Games are meant to be fun, entertaining past times which usually means spending time with friends as well. Dynamic queue allows for this to happen in a competitive environment.

Teamwork and Cooperation was never an excuse. It is the reason for Dynamic queue. They never stated that either of those two did not exist prior to Dynamic Queue. Dynamic Queue is supposed to encourage more of it.

Consider this: You got a game going and you + 3 others are cooperating well, but you got 1 troll up in top lane doing nothing but pushing top lane. You and your team decide to push with the troll and then win the game. This isn't much different from Dynamic queue. It can still happen in Dynamic Queue with the exception that there are premades now.

There are far bigger issues with the game than Dynamic Queue.

Dynamic Queue and Solo Queue doesn't matter to me. I just wanted to give my two cents. Whether or not they keep it is irrelevant to me.

Too bad he isn't open to discussion when he said he would be.

GodhriJul 9, 20167 votes

It doesn't matter. He doesn't need to be open to discussion. He doesn't control what we post. We can still put in our two cents regardless of the down votes. Discussion isn't about popularity of your contention, but being able to bring clarity to the topic being discussed.

WoonStruckJul 9, 20167 votes

This.

WoonStruckJul 9, 201613 votes

How am I not open to discussion? You just make poor points.

Make some points more like his and there would be things to actually discuss.

WoonStruckJul 9, 201615 votes

{quoted}

Valid reasons as to why Dynamic queue should stay:

I want to play in a competitive mode/environment with my friends. Ranked Integrity is still very strong. The only difference now is that the difficulty to climb has gone up thus standards for skill level and team play have changed. People have difficulty adjusting to this change; thus the barrage of complaints about Dynamic Queue on the forums such as yours.

5v5s/3v3s. No reason to punish solo players for playing solo. I'm not complaining because I can't adjust, I'm complaining because its now a broken system.

I am a solo queue individual, but I do like the occasional ranked game with friends.

Then Dynamic Queue is not for you. Normals are for you in those instances. Ranked does not make your interactions with friends any more meaningful.

I'm still able to carry some games against premades; if I can do it, so can you.

Its not about winning/losing/carrying its about it being a broken system.

Games are meant to be fun, entertaining past times which usually means spending time with friends as well. Dynamic queue allows for this to happen in a competitive environment.

Last time I checked, normals were for fun, and ranked was a competitive environment. If you've ever been a part of legitimate competition, you'd know you don't do it 'for the fun of it', you do it because winning, improving, and surpassing people makes you feel good.

Dynamic Queue does not let you do such in a competitive environment because they invalidated the system. 3v3s and 5v5s would make a better argument for you yet again.

Teamwork and Cooperation was never an excuse. It is the reason for Dynamic queue. They never stated that either of those two did not exist prior to Dynamic Queue. Dynamic Queue is supposed to encourage more of it.

Its not the reason for Dynamic Queue. Queuing with friends which causes more people to play, thus more likely to spend money over time, is why Dynamic Queue exists. It has nothing to do with the ranked experience, hence why its only made it worse.

Consider this: You got a game going and you + 3 others are cooperating well, but you got 1 troll up in top lane doing nothing but pushing top lane. You and your team decide to push with the troll and then win the game. This isn't much different from Dynamic queue. It can still happen in Dynamic Queue with the exception that there are premades now.

Someone AFK pushing top doesn't make them a troll, for one, and two, cooperating is entirely possible in a Solo Queue environment. I don't get why every Dynamic Queue supporter pretends teamwork and Solo Queue are mutually exclusive. I saw more cooperation in Solo Queue.

_Edit: I misread what he said. He's pretty much saying Dynamic Queue doesn't change gameplay for solo players much. This is true for premades on your team. Its the communication advantage against the other team that's causing matchmaking discrepancies. MMR cannot accurately grade communication on top of win-rate. it makes you win harder against teams lesser or similar to your individual ability. It gets to the point of being near-useless against players that are individually better than you. Its far too swingy for partial premades to have their MMR evaluated accurately by the system. _

There are far bigger issues with the game than Dynamic Queue.

Not outside of the ones that have always been there. Dynamic Queue downgraded the game further.

GodhriJul 9, 20161 votes

I have only one thing to say. I do not think cooperating and solo queue are mutually exclusive. Nothing in my post suggests that.

WoonStruckJul 9, 20162 votes

You're right. I misread it.

Apologies.

rtbf221651412Jul 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You're right. I misread it.

Apologies.

Based on many of your points, you believe Overwatch is Toxic AF. However, this game is more toxic. I play both. I met more toxic people in league than overwatch.

devdev463Jul 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Based on many of your points, you believe Overwatch is Toxic AF. However, this game is more toxic. I play both. I met more toxic people in league than overwatch.

Annecdotes mean nothing.

rtbf221651412Jul 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Annecdotes mean nothing.

Either you want logic in discussion or not.

Calling it anecdotal (and misspelling it) does not mean it doesn't have a sound basis.

devdev463Jul 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Either you want logic in discussion or not.

Calling it anecdotal (and misspelling it) does not mean it doesn't have a sound basis.

Actually, calling it annecdotal does mean it has no sound basis. What because you just 'feel' there are more toxic league players than overwatch players? Did you at least keep track of the toxic players you encountered in both games? I'm guessing not. You can't use 'feels' to counter points like say 'overwatch is more toxic than league' because it doesn't mean anything.

rtbf221651412Jul 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Actually, calling it annecdotal does mean it has no sound basis. What because you just 'feel' there are more toxic league players than overwatch players? Did you at least keep track of the toxic players you encountered in both games? I'm guessing not. You can't use 'feels' to counter points like say 'overwatch is more toxic than league' because it doesn't mean anything.

Have you played overwatch? I been playing overwatch and for every one player there is toxic there, there is 2-3 here. Where is your non-anecdotal evidence? I'm looking for your research paper kid.

devdev463Jul 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Have you played overwatch? I been playing overwatch and for every one player there is toxic there, there is 2-3 here. Where is your non-anecdotal evidence? I'm looking for your research paper kid.

I don't even have overwatch, and can't comment at all on the level of toxicity in the game. Doesn't make your argument for why it isn't toxicity any less bad.

daviidnavidadJul 9, 20163 votes

I prefer dynamic queue, yes there are premades, but I don't think those make as much of a difference as many people say, I think some people think it is what is causing them to lose when it might be a bad team comp, or using your team comp wrong, or just the enemy hitting a powerspike. Ik i'm only bronze one but personally it just seems like a fine system that people mistake for the reason they lose a game.

Dextix LTJul 9, 20163 votes

They do make a lot of difference. Lets say you have Real Madrid (Full team) play against a random team with players from Spanish A league. What would happen? Real Madrid would wipe the floor with the other team.

Why? Because they have better syndergy and communication because they know each other. They have an advantage.

And the other worse thing is, that even if you have a premade on your team, it is still bad. Because then you are DEPENDANT on your premade to be good. If you have a premade in your team, the enemy either also gets a premade or higher MMR players. To "balance" out the fact that you have premades in your team. This means that the game becomes harder for you, and if the premades are not good enough the "Balance" system will result in an unbalanced math where the enemy is simply stronger, and it was in no way dependant on the solo player.

rtbf221651412Jul 9, 201610 votes

Really? I feel like it will force individual queue people to actually cooperate FOR ONCE. Maybe we can see this as an opportunity to force people to stop being narcissistic and actually play as a team.

-Individual queuer.

WoonStruckJul 9, 201618 votes

Meanwhile premades practically refuse to cooperate?

Also, above silver solos already had to either cooperate or earn a loss.

GodhriJul 9, 20166 votes

So one of your contentions is that it doesn't encourage teamwork/cooperation yet here you are stating

{quoted}

Meanwhile premades practically refuse to cooperate?

Also, above silver solos already had to either cooperate or earn a loss.

WoonStruckJul 9, 201611 votes

I was obviously referring to Solo Queue.

manbearswineJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Also, above silver solos already had to either cooperate or earn a loss.

That's bullshit, even at diamond people don't cooperate at all.

Dextix LTJul 10, 20163 votes

What you say, is indeed bullshit. Because they HAD to cooperate if they wanted or not. That is how victory is achieved. Noone will care if you are 20/5/0 but solo all the time while ignoring your team.

manbearswineJul 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=llBkIr65,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2016-07-10T06:24:20.000+0000)

What you say, is indeed bullshit. Because they HAD to cooperate if they wanted or not. That is how victory is achieved. Noone will care if you are 20/5/0 but solo all the time while ignoring your team.

If you are willing to just name any sort of teamwork "cooperation" then even bronze is full of it, and there's no reason to complain about premades as everyone is cooperating anyway.

If you go with slightly stricter terms, then grouping isn't cooperation, grouping is the most lazy and braindead thing you can do, actual cooperation is when people actually bother to break their regular play pattern because the team needs something else, and that is extremely rare in diamond.

The solo q environment is extremely lazy and uncooperative in general, very rarely do people actually change their playstyle to compliment their team, doesn't matter if it's bronze or diamond, solo que always had a very big emphasis on SOLO.

Dextix LTJul 10, 20163 votes

Again, bullshit. High level players always have more cooperation and flexibility in how a team works. Grouping is cooperation, its the basic of basics. And people do break their regular patterns for the team. I have seen worst players in the team becoming tanks for more fed players. The weaker players supporting stronger players. People thinking of strategies, fight plans, all of that is common, or at least was common when soloq was in place.

Soloq environment is never lazy, because you need to improve to rise, so how can you be lazy in any way? I have seen many examples in high elos when players not only change their playstyles but even their personalities for better cooperation.

Soloq always had big emphasis on solo, because that is how players should be ranked, on their individual ability. This however doesnt mean that teamwork did not exist, because it did, because it was needed to rise.

GelmousJul 9, 20166 votes

i love Dynamic Queue, i never played ranked before it was released and i must say it's the best thing riot did, it actually encouraged me to play ranked

AninLegions777Jul 9, 20166 votes

Encouraged you ... how?

GelmousJul 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Encouraged you ... how?

i'm a simple person, i don't like to argue or fight, so when i got to pick my desired role everytime anytime i enjoyed it.

AninLegions777Jul 9, 20169 votes

You see mate, I now understand what you are saying. The ability to pick your desired role is the new champ select, NOT Dynamic queue. Dynamic queue is the ability to queue up on ranked with 1-4 other people. Hope that clears it up for you.

GelmousJul 10, 20162 votes

i think everyone here is a Nazi and the Dynamic Queue debate isn't worth arguing over since it's one sided and apparently i must be lynched because i like the Dynamic Queue, this is really sad.

AninLegions777Jul 10, 20162 votes

No fam. We aren't. The thing is most of us are emotional about it cos we care about the state of ranked atm. I explained the difference to you. From what you said, you like the New Champion Select not Dynamic queue.

rtbf221651412Jul 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No fam. We aren't. The thing is most of us are emotional about it cos we care about the state of ranked atm. I explained the difference to you. From what you said, you like the New Champion Select not Dynamic queue.

Really? Explain all the down votes to decent counter-arguments? All the fallacies being supported?

AninLegions777Jul 11, 20162 votes

The thing is, like I said, good arguments were made on Reddit (which is wayyyyy more civilized than boards when it comes to the upvote/downvote system). SENSIBLE arguments for DQ got high upvotes and were addressed as to how Solo queue was superior. Basically, it wasn't just SQ is better than DQ. There were civilized arguments. That being said, bring one decent counter-argument.

rtbf221651412Jul 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, like I said, good arguments were made on Reddit (which is wayyyyy more civilized than boards when it comes to the upvote/downvote system). SENSIBLE arguments for DQ got high upvotes and were addressed as to how Solo queue was superior. Basically, it wasn't just SQ is better than DQ. There were civilized arguments. That being said, bring one decent counter-argument.

Really? Cause I am seeing most, if not all, counter-arguments being down voted. What fantasy world do you live in? What are you smoking? It sure isn't legal.

rtbf221651412Jul 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

i think everyone here is a Nazi and the Dynamic Queue debate isn't worth arguing over since it's one sided and apparently i must be lynched because i like the Dynamic Queue, this is really sad.

^This.

Here are fallacies I am seeing and that I want to point out:

Argumentum ad populum doesn't make things true. People believed the world was flat. Doesn't make it flat. Inductive fallacy doesn't make an arguement either. Just because someone just bought icecream and it just started to rain doesn't not mean buying icecream makes it rain. In otherwords, Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Cherry picking isn't great either for arguments. You cannot say one thing and point out No true Scotsman when it's clearly on your side as well. Loaded questions do not mean discussion. These are clearly meaning you are not open to discussion. A loaded question would be "Did you beat your wife today?". A lot of fallacies are being used and they are being used as scapegoating and witch hunting.

These are prob not even half of the fallacies I am seeing. Does this make me right or wrong? That isn't the point. The point is there is no logic coming out of discussing this. Even walls would be better to talk to than this.

Dominick DestineJul 10, 20163 votes

{quoted}

when i got to pick my desired role everytime anytime i enjoyed it.

Troll detected.

LightIsMyPathJul 10, 20164 votes

I don't think he's trolling, lots of people actually don't know the difference. Biggest mistake by riot ( or maybe part of their plan to have a bigger part of community supporting them) : Releasing them at the same time. All their data about reduced toxicity etc are falsed because of the influence of new role champion select rather then dyn Q into them..

The Yetii RiderJul 9, 20164 votes

"Role Select could easily be implemented in solo queue".

No...no it couldn't. If that was the case, then Riot would have just brought Team Builder to ranked. In lower elos especially, people just want to play carries. You got ridiculously long queue times in team builder, to the point where Riot made it so that solo queuers would join rooms made by a team of at least two players. Why? Because if 50% of the player base queueing up wants mid, you aren't getting into the game.

Dynamic Queue forces role diversity. I can't queue up with a friend unless the two of us choose three roles between us. That makes us easier to place than two other people who queue for the same role and two different secondaries.

That's why premades actually appear in so many solo player games. Because actually finding 10 solo players who are using role select to get a variety of roles doesn't happen. There aren't enough solo support mains to supply the queue.

Team Builder couldn't function at ANY elo without the Captain system. The idea that solo queue could use new Champ Select has already been disproven by US.

AninLegions777Jul 9, 201611 votes

WHAT THE FCK ARE YOU SAYING?!

Dynamic Queue forces role diversity.

Are you fcking serious right now?! That's the bloody new champ select. And even with that, each player can choose ONLY 2 roles. With the old champ select, you could get ANY role. It forced people to learn to play all lanes to an acceptable level. Pls stop saying what isn't true.

ClassiKJul 9, 20163 votes

Solo queue does not make the game more fair either. Anyone who has played solo queue enough will understand that all it takes is for 1 person to not know what they are doing to ruin the game. Of course, this does not take into account of the amount of trolls/afks/intentional feeders that still run rampant within in solo queue. Solo queue is just a probability of who gets the largest feeder in the game/ratio of getting a random troll who goes teemo jungle. Getting out of a certain division is not by skill but by luck. Don't trust the pros that gives the explanation of ratios of troll is 4 to 5, it does not work that way. Dynamic is not much fairer either, but at least when I play with 5 I know that my team has no trolls. I tend to favor dynamic, but both queues suck.

PyrokineticmageJul 9, 201610 votes

So it is luck that the diamonds get back to diamond every year in solo queue, and it's luck to get to challenger. Somehow I really doubt that.

Dextix LTJul 9, 20165 votes

Soloq, was no inherently broken. Everyone had a level playing field.

Even with trolls/afk/int feeders, it was still a fair system. Hell, it was stacked in your own side slightly.

Your team has 4 possible trolls/afk/feeders. The enemy has 5 possible afk/trolls/feeders.

Which in the end means that you will rise according to your skill, because since you are a constant variable during all of the games, in a fair system.

And yes, it works that way. Learn some probability theory.

And your statement that luck is what causes people to get to high elos, is laugghable. I heard that often from those who cried about Elo hell. It is actually skill. Many people have CONSISTENTLY, risen up through the ranks to where they belong many times.

If it was dependant on luck, eloboosters simply could not exist as it would be such a random and unprofitable business.

Soloq had its problems, but it was not inherently broken. And proti, if you want to know that your team has no trolls. PLAY TEAM RANKED 5 V 5.

Dominick DestineJul 10, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=llBkIr65,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2016-07-09T19:41:46.087+0000)

Even with trolls/afk/int feeders, it was still a fair system. Hell, it was stacked in your own side slightly. Your team has 4 possible trolls/afk/feeders. The enemy has 5 possible afk/trolls/feeders. Which in the end means that you will rise according to your skill, because since you are a constant variable during all of the games, in a fair system. And yes, it works that way. Learn some probability theory.

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