Why do these items exist?!!

The thigh guy·May 27, 2019·3 votes·1,324 views

I was playing jhin, and I had 500 ad, then someone spent 5800 gold and suddenly I only had 255 ad! That’s so rediculous. They just got to rip off 8575 gold worth of my stats! Why? Why is that okay? How is that fair!! And it’s not like building it cause them any problems because IT HAS ALL THE STATS THEY WANT ANYWAYS!?

Oh wait……… I’m talking about black cleaver and last whisper items shredding armor off. Whoops.

See how insane it sounds when applied to any other stat? So why is armor being screwed so hard?

32 Comments

ModThe DjinnMay 27, 201910 votes

So why is armor being screwed so hard?

Because armor numbers are balanced around the idea that the enemy can itemize into armor penetration, albeit at the expense of items they'd rather have. I'd much prefer to end with a Bloodthirster for 80 AD and lifesteal and a shield, but I can't, because you built armor, so I have to get Lord Dominck's to have meaningful damage against you. If armor penetration items didn't exist, armor would have to be weaker so that tanks didn't become invincible in all situations.

Also, armor does exactly what you're referring to against AD. If you buy 100 armor, you've effectively cut my AD in half, along with the damage from any physical-damage-dealing abilities I have. That's a feature, not a bug, and if you want to cut my damage further things like Randuin's and Frozen Heart exist to let you do so.

The thigh guyMay 27, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:00:52.095+0000)

Because armor numbers are balanced around the idea that the enemy can itemize into armor penetration, albeit at the expense of items they'd rather have. I'd much prefer to end with a Bloodthirster for 80 AD and lifesteal and a shield, but I can't, because you built armor, so I have to get Lord Dominck's to have meaningful damage against you. If armor penetration items didn't exist, armor would have to be weaker so that tanks didn't become invincible in all situations.

Also, armor does exactly what you're referring to against AD. If you buy 100 armor, you've effectively cut my AD in half, along with the damage from any physical-damage-dealing abilities I have. That's a feature, not a bug, and if you want to cut my damage further things like Randuin's and Frozen Heart exist to let you do so.

The difference being 49% of a stat being annihilated off of someone is insane.

Like this example. Jhin got 49% of his stats invalidated. And he comes useless. Armor is the same way.

Also, you don’t give up a blood thirster. And even if you did, runes apply almost 12% life steal by themselves.

ModThe DjinnMay 27, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:08:31.786+0000)Armor is the same way.

Forcing the enemy team to specifically itemize against you means they're not buying things that are stronger against your teammates. That's a good thing. The fact that some items force your opponents to adjust their builds to respond is an intended feature of the itemization system.

Also, you don’t give up a blood thirster. And even if you did, runes apply almost 12% life steal by themselves.

Sure. But you know what's better than 12% lifesteal? 32%. If I didn't have to buy armor penetration, I get an offensive item that's much better against more of the enemy team.

The thigh guyMay 27, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:11:48.413+0000)

Forcing the enemy team to specifically itemize against you means they're not buying things that are stronger against your teammates. That's a good thing. The fact that some items force your opponents to adjust their builds to respond is an intended feature of the itemization system.

Sure. But you know what's better than 12% lifesteal? 32%. If I didn't have to buy armor penetration, I get an offensive item that's much better against more of the enemy team.

Except it isn’t that much more effective of an offensive item, because it isn’t bonus armor pen, it’s total. So you’re removing 35% of their effective health as soon as you buy lord Dominik’s, which is also going to increase the amount you life steal.

ModThe DjinnMay 27, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:21:18.344+0000)Except it isn’t that much more effective of an offensive item, because it isn’t bonus armor pen, it’s total. So you’re removing 35% of their effective health as soon as you buy lord Dominik’s, which is also going to increase the amount you life steal.

That's not how it works, actually. Every 1 point of armor is equal to 1% effective health. If your target has 50 armor and you remove 35% of that you get only a 17.5% damage increase, and for that you give up 35 AD and any helpful passives you might be able to get from a straight AD item...and if it's a crit build, that AD really matters.

Lord Dominick's, for example, is only gold efficient once your target has 88.8 armor. If they have less for any reason you're actually spending gold poorly against that target, and if they've got significantly less you're even further behind.

ZephyrDrakeMay 27, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:08:31.786+0000)

The difference being 49% of a stat being annihilated off of someone is insane.

Like this example. Jhin got 49% of his stats invalidated. And he comes useless. Armor is the same way.

Also, you don’t give up a blood thirster. And even if you did, runes apply almost 12% life steal by themselves.

"you have to buy this item instead of this other item but you don't give up the item you wanted!" what type of logic is this? if we didn't had to build armor pen to deal with armor stacking targets then we would actually buy bloodthrister or some other AD item instead. Also we could instead get another rune instead of the lifesteal and comparing 20% lifesteal the instant you build the item to a 12% lifesteal that you need to get a bunch of kills/assist to achieve is two completely different things.

xDogMeatxMay 27, 20192 votes

Rammus u were playing I'm guessing?

The thigh guyMay 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Rammus u were playing I'm guessing?

No. I just hate how hard armor is being fucked and no one saying anything because “but but but. Tank meta. :c”

xDogMeatxMay 27, 20191 votes

I hate pen items altogether if I see a pen item it means well drop all my armor and build damage now since now I'm wasting money because of said regards item.

The thigh guyMay 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I hate pen items altogether if I see a pen item it means well drop all my armor and build damage now since now I'm wasting money because of said regards item.

Exactly. We need tank items that actually just reduce an enemy’s ad or ap.

ZephyrDrakeMay 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T18:32:37.695+0000)

Exactly. We need tank items that actually just reduce an enemy’s ad or ap.

Cool then need damage items that lowers your HP values permanently.

The thigh guyMay 27, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Cool then need damage items that lowers your HP values permanently.

You already have that in %pen items. -.-

ZephyrDrakeMay 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T20:22:33.570+0000)

You already have that in %pen items. -.-

Just like you already have what you want in items like randuin's and frozen heart

The thigh guyMay 27, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Just like you already have what you want in items like randuin's and frozen heart

Those reduce attack speed. Not ad. VERY big difference. :/

ZephyrDrakeMay 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-27T20:31:12.474+0000)

Those reduce attack speed. Not ad. VERY big difference. :/

No there isn't. They further lower the damage that auto attackers do to you. Then you have item 3194 which further lowers the magic damage you take from the "dps" magic abilities. What you want already exists in the game in some form. You want more? Cool then also give me more damage items that lower your defenses in other ways.

The thigh guyMay 28, 20191 votes

[deleted]

ZephyrDrakeMay 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-28T05:45:31.396+0000)

You’re actually an idiot. :/

yes I am an idiot because I don't want idiotic items that would be picked be broken by design. You have what you want already in better ways that don't instantly mean "here have this very easy item you can build that will let you have a FREE WIN!"

The thigh guyMay 28, 20193 votes

{quoted}

yes I am an idiot because I don't want idiotic items that would be picked be broken by design. You have what you want already in better ways that don't instantly mean "here have this very easy item you can build that will let you have a FREE WIN!"

Oh. You mean like void staff. Making tanks irrelevant.

And black cleaver making tanks irrelevant.

And last whisper items making tanks irrelevant.

And conquerer. Making tanks irrelevant.

Or Bork making tanks irrelevant.

Or bloodrazor making tanks irrelevant.

Or liandries. Making tanks irrelevant.

Woooooow. So many options with little to no actual counterplay to these fucking items.

ZephyrDrakeMay 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=laTff2xo,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-28T13:18:59.575+0000)

Oh. You mean like void staff. Making tanks irrelevant.

And black cleaver making tanks irrelevant.

And last whisper items making tanks irrelevant.

And conquerer. Making tanks irrelevant.

Or Bork making tanks irrelevant.

Or bloodrazor making tanks irrelevant.

Or liandries. Making tanks irrelevant.

Woooooow. So many options with little to no actual counterplay to these fucking items.

none of those items make tans irrelevant. sorry that for a tank to be relevant to you it needs to survive every single ultimate and ability the enemy has and still have 25% of their HP. "Irrelevant" thanks for proving to me that you don't want balance and just want literally unkillable champions

ZephyrDrakeMay 27, 20191 votes

wut? so you complaining about armor pen items or attack speed slow items? also sure let's get rid of armor pen items and completely gut every single armor item in the game at the same time.

boricCentaur1May 27, 20191 votes

If anything mr is screwed since there is more magic pen then armor pen in a game.

Also someone building %pen will lose damage for building it, it's a trade off. Also you get the majority of the reduction when fighting someone with black cleaver since it takes time to stack meaning most champions would of already done most of there damage.

The thigh guyMay 27, 20193 votes

{quoted}

If anything mr is screwed since there is more magic pen then armor pen in a game.

Also someone building %pen will lose damage for building it, it's a trade off. Also you get the majority of the reduction when fighting someone with black cleaver since it takes time to stack meaning most champions would of already done most of there damage.

Wait wait wait wait wait. Are you actually about to argue that someone building black cleaver is losing damage when the REMOVE 24% of someone’s effective hp?

boricCentaur1May 27, 20193 votes

If armor items were not in the game no one would build it. It is built since there will be armor built and it's really only built in the lane WHERE PEOPLE GET ARMOR.

Also you keep acting like 6 hits are easy to get there not. By the majority of your armor is still there and you get most of the value since most champions do most of there damage at the start meaning it is only long trades that it is actually 24%.

The thigh guyMay 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If armor items were not in the game no one would build it. It is built since there will be armor built and it's really only built in the lane WHERE PEOPLE GET ARMOR.

Also you keep acting like 6 hits are easy to get there not. By the majority of your armor is still there and you get most of the value since most champions do most of there damage at the start meaning it is only long trades that it is actually 24%.

6 stacks is extremely easy to get. :/ Fiora. Auto - q - reset auto, tiamat - reset auto - e - reset auto - auto crit.

Darius. Q - bleed - auto - bleed - w reset - bleed

Yi. Right click done.

Olaf Auto - axe - w reset - q - auto - e

6 instances of physical damage is not a feat.

boricCentaur1May 27, 20192 votes

So 2 out of the 4 you listed don't build it and fiora doesn't even build it consistently anymore how about you give some champions who actually build the thing.

Also take about cherry picking. Like maybe don't pick champions who counter tanks since it is supposed to be easy.

The thigh guyMay 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So 2 out of the 4 you listed don't build it and fiora doesn't even build it consistently anymore how about you give some champions who actually build the thing.

Also take about cherry picking. Like maybe don't pick champions who counter tanks since it is supposed to be easy.

There you do again.

Me - lists 4 different situations in which black cleaver is easily stacked in under 1 second.

You - ThOsE DoNt CoUnT CaUsE ReAsOnS!

But fine. Here’s more for you to ignore. Because I’m bored.

Lucien Riven Aatrox Ashe (one auto fully stacks) Garen Jayce Rhaast Kled Lee sin Mantheon Renekton Talon Xin zhao.

But I’m sure none of these count either right?

boricCentaur1May 27, 20194 votes

In basically all of those situations black cleaver was stacked in more then 1 seconds and there not realistic SINCE AGAIN THEY DON'T BUILD BLACK CLEAVER.

Again none of those champions stat it fast.

Lucian will have gotten too about 5 stacks after his combo meaning most of his damage he already used and it's basically the same story with the rest of them.

The thigh guyMay 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In basically all of those situations black cleaver was stacked in more then 1 seconds and there not realistic SINCE AGAIN THEY DON'T BUILD BLACK CLEAVER.

Again none of those champions stat it fast.

Lucian will have gotten too about 5 stacks after his combo meaning most of his damage he already used and it's basically the same story with the rest of them.

Aaaaaaaaand exactly what I said. Whatever dude. Keep your delusion going that stacking black cleaver is difficult. Your clearly just going to ignore any arguments. Keep trolling.

boricCentaur1May 27, 20193 votes

I did not ignore them I give the reason I have been giving THAT YOU HAVE NOT GIVE A COUNTER POINT FOR and you keep being up champions that don't build it since you're disingenuous.

Again by the time black cleaver is stack most champions have done there combo. You have yet to give a counter point to that.

Why are you being so biased?

The thigh guyMay 27, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I did not ignore them I give the reason I have been giving THAT YOU HAVE NOT GIVE A COUNTER POINT FOR and you keep being up champions that don't build it since you're disingenuous.

Again by the time black cleaver is stack most champions have done there combo. You have yet to give a counter point to that.

Why are you being so biased?

Except you haven’t and cooldowns come back because black cleaver has 20% cdr on it. Not to mention YOU aren’t the only one benefiting from it. Your entire team does.

But. No. You have chosen to ignore over a dozen examples and how easy it is to stack a black cleaver. So clearly your bias far out weighs mine dude. But like I said. Keep trolling.

boricCentaur1May 28, 20193 votes

Ummm the fights that tanks will be in are team fights or short trades meaning NO THERE IS NOT TIME for the cooldowns to come on unless the tank is playing wrong. Again there are very little times where the team pen from black cleaver matters since the only champions that make use out of it is like wukong since most bruisers thst build it are single target.

WHAT EXAMPLES???? You give me two TWO examples since the rest of them don't build it. I showed why Lucian and others like him don't stack it easily.

Like give a counter point please you're saying nothing and you don't play tanks since if you did you would know all of this.

ChaosReynMay 29, 20191 votes

But...but...but...tank meta. :P

Seriously though, I'm still of the opinion that not everyone should have the ability to deal 8% true damage on hit. I can play freaking AD NAMI with conqueror at this point and the tanks would still have to respect that I deal dumb amounts of true damage.

"lel gl winning with conqueror Nami kid"

But winning isn't my argument - of course I'm going to get blasted to kingdom come by literally anything that isn't a tank. The point is, even with something that ludicrously bad, I can keep a tank from doing his job just because I took a single rune and built a bunch of armor penetration. Right now, we're in a meta where literally everyone has far more aggressive options to take against tanks than tanks have against them. The least we can do is acknowledge that there should be something tanks can do to handle the people who take all these options on divers. Divers are not supposed to feel so empowered that they can dive a tank under his tower with full confidence they're gonna cap his ass and live.

I don't think the solution is bashing the items - items that stand against tanks are supposed to exist and have a purpose - more than I think the solution is giving tanks a break from true damage everything. Conqueror is honestly the most limiting keystone in terms of design space ever, because if anyone can be a tank slayer, what purpose is there in playing tanks?

I guess my official answer to "gl winning with conqueror Nami" would have to be "gl having a tank meta with conqueror, admit this rune fucks over an entire class of champs."