Especially the coin, it gives so much gold. I regularly get full build as an enchanter at 30-35 minutes while the rest of my team is at 3-4 items. At the end of the game I generated 3k gold from it.
Mysticman892 votesTo be fair, full build on a support is quite a bit cheaper than full build on other roles, and making support feel more fulfilling has been an ongoing goal for riot. Whether more gold achieves that, I don't know, but I don't think supports are turning into unstoppable forces carrying games any more now than before so I'm not sure it's strictly a problem.
Still, I'm pretty sure it's accepted as true that coin is pretty bonkers when used well these days.
Chibi Bronzlife1 votesfull build on Coin supports. Spellthief supports and Relic supports have more varied options, but have less income.
Lustdemon1 votesYou are complaining why? Its very hard for tanks to get gold in general. Stop making these whinning posts that do no one any good.Items are over priced for tanks.Also I'm sure this isn't every game you play.Your skills you use also play into getting coin in game.
CannonLordFreed1 votesWow, look at all this gold I get from this item that doesn't give great stats while I'm not allowed to CS that I'm supposed to spend on all these cheap items and this sightstone I have to buy.
This Is Your Dad1 votesIf you take a look at the end game statistics, unless you're doing something wrong or your team isn't csing properly, you will always have at least the second to last total income, with junglers sometimes being lower, depending on certain conditions. Thus it is doing its job by making support less of a dead weight role so people can play it without feeling behind everyone else. Plus there's no real way to abuse it because income only occurs if you aren't csing.
Chibi Bronzlife1 votesCoin supports are generally the ones who don't have the big items. So in reality it's fine. If Spellthief's and Relic gave as much as coin it would be a bit of a problem as champions that get those generally have the bigger stronger items.
chipndip11 votes...what?
Only difference to be made is that a few champs, like Zyra, take STE. For the most part, every support should be building support items, which generally cost less than 2.5k, with maybe one bigger buy as a last item.
Chibi Bronzlife1 votesWrong, this is a misconception by people who don't play support. Coin supports are predominantly your shielders and healers who have a set of items that work ONLY for them. Which are generally cheaper than say the tanky items you would get for a Leona or Braum, or from the items you'd get for aggressive champions such as Zyra or Brand. Supports should be building for the circumstances of the game. Yes every support should always build a sightstone but that is generally where the similarities end unless you're comparing 2 supports that fill the same style.
chipndip11 votesAssuming you aren't Zyra, or Brand, or some other mid lane mage, what support doesn't have a shield or heal? For these supports, why take STE? Hell, even for Brand and the other mid lane mages that go bot, the ones with shitty mana costs can easily just take coin.
Leona and Braum, before getting something like Visage, or Randuin's, should be getting things like Knight's Vow and Locket. There's support items ANY support should need before the expensive items. You can't make up some arbitrary situation where you'd need DMP or something like that before actual support items...unless you're one of those mid lane mages again.
Chibi Bronzlife1 votesLeona, Braum, Tahm, Veigar, Zilean, Blitz, Naut, Shen(unless you count his ult which he can't use often enough to count), Trundle, Sion, Camille (she counts as a support when played as one) and Maokai. Every one of these is a viable mostly within the meta support. Self shields and self passive heals like those of Blitz, Braum, Trundle, Maokai, and Naut do not count. I really think Thresh should be in this list too, because while lantern does shield, its utility is more often used for ganks and retreats, not the shield.
I can think of 2 very basic reasons why a support tank wouldn't buy support items first. One, the adc isn't dependable, two the adc is afk. The first is a judgement call. The second is just unfortunate. Now there are other reasons. The first is utility ADCs, these are generally more important for their utility than their dmg and once the utility is expended they are mostly ignored. Second roaming ADCs, specifically Twitch, who prefer to roam alone stealthed. Then there are roaming supports who team up more with the jg more than the ADC through the midgame. Next is the off-meta botlane picks, like Ziggs and Morde (though morde really shouldn't be considered off-meta as he was designed for botlane). These champions opperate differently than your standard botlane carry. Then there are the reasons not to buy specific items. Locket: you wouldn't buy this if the enemy isn't magic heavy. Mikayle's: since the heal part of the active is no longer there, this item is useless against low cc comps. I can continue, but I think I've made my point.
chipndip11 votes[{quoted}](name=Chibi Bronzlife,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lYK5KE80,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-20T03:04:37.417+0000)
- Leona, Braum, Tahm, Veigar, Zilean, Blitz, Naut, Shen(unless you count his ult which he can't use often enough to count), Trundle, Sion, Camille (she counts as a support when played as one) and Maokai. Every one of these is a viable mostly within the meta support. Self shields and self passive heals like those of Blitz, Braum, Trundle, Maokai, and Naut do not count. I really think Thresh should be in this list too, because while lantern does shield, its utility is more often used for ganks and retreats, not the shield.
Trundle, Camille, Maokai, and Nautilus? Someone's really working that forum tag...
Also, what's the point of listing these champ names out? If you're any of these champs, like Camille, or Trundle, wouldn't you want faster gold to be more than just a squishy stun bot (assuming you're dumb enough to use old meta "it was op 5 patches ago" support picks like Camille to begin with)?
- I can think of 2 very basic reasons why a support tank wouldn't buy support items first.
No you can't. Afks are obviously "special scenarios" that don't apply to the discussion, anyway.
Like, really, "You wouldn't buy Locket, an aoe shield that doesn't discriminate against damage types, if the enemy doesn't pack magic damage". Kinda done here.
Chibi Bronzlife1 votesYou must be a troll.
Nautilus is basically the quintessential support dream. Stuns for days, even a slow 2 forms of engage, and some damage to boot. Maokai's new kit actually works really well as a peel or an engage tank support. Trundle was highly popular as a support for awhile, died down when League of Burst Supports became the meta. Camille had a really strong support showing for awhile as well, and still gets played from time to time.
I missed a bit of your question here. That list is every support or potential support that has been popular in recent history that can not heal or shield allies (ignoring Shen's ult). As for support items, yes you build your gold generation item and SS on every support but all of the champs I listed have more options than the "only build support items til end game" mentality.
I think I gave you way more than 2 reasons there, you sure you can count?
chipndip11 votesNautilus is weak in solo queue and has been for a hot minute, which bleeds into his success as a support. Maokai support was before they fixed him from being a mage, so yes, that's also old. Trundle support was season 5/6. Camille support was the same stuff Poppy support was made of, being blatantly overtuned in damage to the point where they could just function as supports for the sake of it. That was fixed a long time ago.
Honestly, the real question is why are you arguing for anyone to play these shitty support picks to justify playing support in a shitty fashion?
Chibi Bronzlife1 votesI wasn't arguing for them to be played. I was giving you every example that proved your logic wrong of "Assuming you aren't Zyra, or Brand, or some other mid lane mage, what support doesn't have a shield or heal? For these supports, why take STE? Hell, even for Brand and the other mid lane mages that go bot, the ones with shitty mana costs can easily just take coin."
However, no Maokai still has a strong argument for support. Root, knockup and an ult root. He is a situational pick but he does bring a lot to the table just as Naut still does. Just because a champion isn't currently being played doesn't make them weak. Naut has great potential. The true reason Camille support was a thing was the fact that she had a very low cd AoE stun that comes with high mobility. She also has one of the biggest single target lockdowns in the game. That's neither here nor there though. I'm not making an argument for these champions to continue being played. Though I am half tempted to bring back my Naut support just to prove it can still be done. You were the one that specifically singled out these four on my list I added them for the fact they were popular in the support role and fit the criteria of not having shields and heals for allies.
chipndip11 votesI'm not gonna go back and forward with someone tiers and tiers below me over why someone like Nautilus, with a win rate that struggles to break even 45%, shouldn't be considered strong in the support role...let alone at all. You stretching and listing a bunch of yester-year support picks doesn't refute the notion that even if you did take those picks, you don't lose anything from affording your full build faster, and this is achieved with way less work in the lane. Get it?
Chibi Bronzlife1 votesI still disagree, one, you only contest 4 champions on the list of champions I gave. Which whether we agree on the champions or not it still invalidates your comment of "what support doesn't have a heal or shield" which was the point of the list in the first place.
Secondly, sticking to an inflexible build path never altering never considering other options is a sure way to fall out of the ever-changing meta. Players have to be flexible and strategic knowing when to deviate when to optimize outside of what is expected. To do what is expected all the time is a sure way to find yourself in a slump.
There in lies the problem of this debate. Due to what works for you you neglate to consider that that isn't always the right way or best way. Sure there are some supportive items that should be bought in the ideal scenario, but the odds of getting the ideal scenario depends on more than just your individual play. It depends on the events of the entire game which you refuse to accept as genuine reason to modify builds.
chipndip11 votes[{quoted}](name=Chibi Bronzlife,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lYK5KE80,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-20T21:39:35.906+0000)
I still disagree, one
Honestly you're too stubborn. Ciao.
Chibi Bronzlife1 votesLocket has always been focused on magic dmg. I haven't looked at it lately.
Just confirmed. Must have changed when they changed Aegis, okay that's one less point on my extensive list of unanswered points. Oh btw I forgot an old popular support, Annie.
Zone of Endless1 votesIt's just coin. Spellthief and relic is relatively the same as before.
chipndip11 votesNo one cares.
I mean, you're right, but from personal experience, no one on these boards cares. Gotta wait for more people to realize how bullshit coin is for it to be controlled proper. Maybe if champs with more expensive builds began to run it to hit those spikes faster?
Big Lincoln1 votesthey're never going to care because they think supports are actually weak
chipndip11 votesIt's not that they think they're weak, Lincoln. It's that they don't notice how strong they can be.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesAnd the problem is . . . ? You're still going to be short a few grand from your team, regardless if your team is winning or not.
Reaper Soraka1 votesSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
For having janna's passive as the end-game on coin, let us at least have a good gold income.
