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Redesigning Karma's Passive

SilverSquid··19 votes·3,052 views

Most people agree that Karma's passive appears like a boring extension of her ultimate, and not like a standalone passive that can compete with other passives. While those people usually ask it to be "moved to her ultimate", today I wanna try something different. I want to build on the idea of having a passive, that asks you to interact with the enemy, to enhance your empowered spells. For this, I introduce a new secondary ressource called "resolve", that would be displayed as a secondary resource bar below Karma's mana bar (most likely in turquoise).

TL;DR can be found at the bottom.

For all those, who think that Karma doesn't need a rework; we can probably agree, that in terms of power, Karma doesn't need one. However, Karma doesn't have a good reason to be picked. Nearly everything she does can be done better by other champions or sufficiently recreated by items. In light of the upcoming mage update it makes sense to explore possibilities that make Karme more unique and in line with her character.

So, here's the reworked kit:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/76/Karma_SunGoddessSkin_Ch.jpg/revision/latest/zoom-crop/width/613/height/460?cb=20111014220918

NOTE Values that aren't mentioned are unchanged. The changed values might very well be too high or too low. I tried my best to keep her power roughly the same, but working exclusively in theory makes this hard to judge.

P - Towering Resolve

Karma's resolve increases when using certain abilities or hitting enemies with basic attacks. Karma uses this resolve to fuel her mantra empowered abilities. Karma gains [5] resolve for hitting enemies with basic attacks. Karma's abilities can't gain you more than [25] resolve per cast. Karma can store up to [50+5/lvl] resolve at once.

Q - Inner Flame

In addition to the usual effects, Karma gains [15] resolve for hitting enemy champions ([25] for hitting 2 or more champions).

RQ - Soulflare

Deals 5/75/125/175 (+0.3AP) bonus magic damage Karma spends up to [40/60/80/100] of her remaining resolve to increase the AP scaling of the initial explosion by 0.01AP per point spent. She heals 1 nearby ally for every 1 enemy champion hit by 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 hp per resolve spent. The second explosion applies half the damage and healing.

W - Spirit Link

COST: 20 mana/s (first tick upon cast). The tether can be cancelled after 1s.

  • Targeted allies heal for 10/12.5/15/17.5/20% (+1%/100AP) of the damage they deal, as long as the tether persists. Karma gains [1] resolve for every 10hp the target heals.
  • Targeted enemies suffer 20/35/50/65/80 (+0.3AP) magic damage per second. They also receive 10/12.5/15/17.5/20% (+1%/100AP) of the damage they deal as magic damage. Karma loses [1] resolve for every 5 damage dealt this way. If Karma's resolve depletes, the tether breaks.

RW - Spirit Infusion

COST: [40] resolve

  • Target ally also deals 9/12/15/18% (+1%/100AP) increased damage.
  • Target enemy also receives 9/12/15/18% (+1%/100AP) increased damage

E - Inspire

In addition to the usual effects, Karma gains [5] resolve for shielding other allies. If a shield is broken by damage, Karma gains [10] resolve.

RE - Defiance

COST: [50] resolve

The shield overflows with energy, increasing the main shield by and shielding nearby allies for 30/70/110/150 (+0.3AP). Nearby enemies take 60/140/220/300 (+0.6AP) magic damage.

Mantra

RECHARGE: 30/30/25/20 CHARGES: 1/2/2/2

Karma uses her resolve to empower the next ability within 8 seconds. This ability can store a second charge from lvl6 onwards.

Skill discussion

P - PASSIVE TOO COMPLICATED? I must admit, adding all of this might be a lot to read on Karma's abilities. But can it be worth it? It's a passive, that rewards good plays and good thinking. It conveys its power visually and it has enough levers for Riot to balance. Additionally it highlights Karma's ups and downs of power propperly and feels way more engaging than some self made CDR.

Q - STILL BREAD AND BUTTER Not much to see here. It does the same job as today's Q, poke, clear and decent interaction with her passive.

RQ - OVERPOWERED HADOUKEN? I must admit, putting a 1.6AP scaling on a spell sounds ridiculous at first, especially since it's on a short cooldown. But there is a reason behind this madness; I also removed the base value, to make up for it. At max level, it currently does 435 +0.9AP VS the new 260 +(0.6-1.6)AP. Put like this you can see, that you must spend at least 30 resolve to gain the same scaling and at 500AP you need to spend 50 resolve to reach today's impact damage. The scaling was put there to let mage karma scale better into lategame, but with a clearer risk and reward pattern (note the removed root in her kit). It's also supposed to explain what happend to that Noxian in her lore. For the supporting aspect, I didn't let the heal scale with AP. Why? Because I wanted support Karma to focus on her resolve alone, and not AP. A mid Karma shouldn't be able to heal more, but CDR would allow for more resolve and thus more and better healing.

W - MULTITOOLING 101 So this spell has a LOT of jobs, in terms of design. First of all, it's both a resolve creator and spender. I think this is needed, to make the use of resolve more dynamic. Secondly, this ability is meant to symbolize the connection Karma creates with others. And thirdly it hightlights her karmic aspect "reap what you sow". As such the damage enemies receive and allies heal is dependent on their actions. Interestingly, this ability also gives enemies the tool to break the tether early and punish Karma for tethering too long and draining all her resolve.... at the cost of a lot of immediate damage.

RW - FOCUS POWER The use of this ability rewards you for finding focus points of damage. Link to targets, that need to be focused, or link to a target, that is going to deal massive damage to the whole enemy team. The reason for why they are rather similar is, that the effects need to compliment the uses of the basic ability.

E - NEW PASSIVE INTERACTION Karma does NOT get free resolve for spamming the shield on herself, but gets rewarded for using the shield amount efficiently. But since speeding allies is sometimes useful too, it grants at least a little resolve for doing so. Note that this spell can only reach the potential 25 resolve on the ultimate version.

RE - SHIELDBOMB IS BACK, BABY Karma's shieldbomb was removed because of the CD reduction on her passive. Now that it's gone, I can't see why we shouldn't bring this back. The shieldbomb had been an integral part of Karma for over 4 years, so I restored it with pre 5.10 values.

R - SO WHAT ABOUT CHARGES I am not quite sure about that one. I wanted Karma to juggle with both resolve and mantra stacks, to make mastering Karma something to be proud of. It should also help her compensate the powerspike other champions get at lvl6, by increasing her options. It also makes her resolve spending less binary. However, I don't know if it wouldn't end up too complicated? It also reintroduces certain problems with double casting some abilities, gating the potential power of singular uses. I tried conteracting this with resolve costs, but I don't know if it's enough.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/58816147.jpg

Anyways, thoughts, criticism? Room for improvement? Good idea, bad idea? Wanna discuss anything Karma related? Have ideas yourself for a Karma rework? Fire away, I'd love to read it!

TL;DR

Instead of making Karma's passive a fancy selfmade CDR, I made it a second resource system and let all abilities interact with it. I also used the opportunity to make some abilities more unique.

  • P - Hitting AAs and using abilities grants Karma resolve. Resolve fuels Karma's empowered abilities.
  • Q - Grants resolve for hitting enemy champions.
  • RQ - Spends a lot of resolve to increase the damage scaling of the initial explosion. Heals nearby allies for the resolve spent (if enemies were hit).
  • W - Costs mana/second and can be reactivated to cancel. Grants LS/SV to target ally and gains resolve based on the health gained. Deals damage over time to target enemy, redirecting some of his damage back to him, draining resolve in the process.
  • RW - Spend some resolve to increase the damage target ally deals or to increase the damage target enemy takes.
  • E - Shielding allies or having shields break grants resolve.
  • RE - Karma spends resolve to shield and speedup allies around the target. Also damages enemies.
  • R - Cooldown adapted, second charge at lvl6. Mantra'd abilities cost resolve.

35 Comments

Bootleg Gay3 votes

As a Karma player, I approve. Might need some tweaking here and there, mostly for the tether, but it's a solid idea.

I'd personally give her a second resource bar, akin to Jhin, then have her abilities scale additionally based on how she manages it, rather than the sort of hidden stat that it seems to be. I do like the idea though.

SilverSquid1 votes

I'd personally give her a second resource bar, akin to Jhin, then have her abilities scale additionally based on how she manages it, rather than the sort of hidden stat that it seems to be

Erm....

For this, I introduce a new secondary ressource called "resolve", that would be displayed around Karma's health/mana bar (either above or below).

You see, this is actually how I imagined it. Does ^this^ sentence explain it badly? EDIT: Tried making the sentence a bit clearer. Probably gonna wedge it into the passive description too.

How would you tweak the tether? I played around it for a week and this is what I ended up with. But I am very interested in how other tackle this issue.

Bootleg Gay1 votes

I must not have read this article as well as I thought. Sorry about that.

I, personally, wouldn't have it use up resources for each second that it remains. Instead, it would be better to force Karma to risk staying closer to an enemy or an ally, and punish her for an incomplete tether. Currently, it does a slight amount of damage, and that's it. The reward for sticking close is a big root that can catch people off guard.

Give it a few bigger numbers, and maybe a reward for finishing the tether/channel.

My rendition:

  • Karma tethers herself to an ally or an enemy champion for 3 seconds. Attached to an ally, she heals them over the course of a tether. Attached to an enemy, they take damage over the duration. At the end of the friendly tether, her and her ally gain bonus resistances. At the end of a hostile tether, she roots the target for a small duration. At the end of either, she is healed a very small amount.

  • Empowered, Karma increases the heal or damage to enemies or allies. Additionally, the root duration is increased on enemies, and the resistance gain duration is doubled on allies. The heal at the end of the tether from either situation is increased.

This gives Karma incentive to stick to someone and keep it up. I've increased the duration that's needed to connect to a target, and given a reward system to either situation should she complete them. I tried to build off of your idea too, but it's still a bit different than normal.

Just an idea.

SilverSquid1 votes

No problem. The post is rather loaded with information, I can't blame you for missing some details.

Let's start with RW, because it's a bit easier: I don't believe that Mantra is something that should give you more of the same. There are enough semi ultimates, that do that. Mantra had always been special, because it added another aspect to the spell, most of the time the opposite, asking you to take use of both. My rendition is already pretty weak on this, as it only indirectly does things differently. One is damage redirection/direction and the other healing/damage increase.

And another short one; Your rendition doesn't interact with resolve at all :-/. As such it's kind of a missfit for the "Resolve Karma Rework"

About the root. Now this is getting a bit more complicated. Hold on tight! The problem with the root is its place in Karma's kit. First of all, if placed on the tether, it shifts the thematic aspect of it from "connecting to someone" to "threatening something". It also shifts a lot of the power of the spell to the end of it, making it rather underwhelming if even two 3rds of it hit. This introduces the problem of counterplay; There is so little to do against it, that its power must always be little. Or they have to add addtional conditions. The success of this ability is currently strongly determined by the context, not by the actions of champions. As I didn't change the basic setup of her Q, having a root is also problematic, since it gates the damage RQ can do. It also forces W into the awkward role of being a setup spell for RQ, instead of a useful stand-alone spell. I wanted to shift the power away from landing the root, to staying connected, for different reasons. For enemies, it should face a certain challenge, to the death. The reason for Karma to engage someone should be, that she is certain that she can deal more damage, than the enemy can return (and that she has enough resolve to sustain this). Interestingly, the same goes for the enemy champion. They either take free trade or take damage by counter attacking, possibly draining Karma's resolve and ending any possible damage. As you see, this ability is gated by both sides by their ability of judge the situation. A battle of wits, if you may. All symbolized through the tether connecting them, similar to Harry and Voldemort (getting off track here, gimme a sec...). The ally version makes it more unique compared to other heals, working best with allies who can use it, highlighting her "spirit binding" thematically again. Making it a HoT with follw-up resistances makes it a non-reactive spell, but a pro-active one. If we were to reverse it and let it increase resistances and then have a heal it would make more sense, but 3s of resistances don't feel particularly impactful. Riot usually avoids those things, since it doesn't convey the power it actually has, always feeling more lackluster than it is (see Sona's old aura). Functional LS is way more noticeable and thus gets a green light in terms of visual clarity. I also think there is a certain place for champions that buff an ADC, instead of simply protecting it. Nunu, Nami and Lulu could be that, but fall flat. Could this be Karma's nieche?

I hope this was understandable and not too aggressive. I'd hate myself if this made you stop wanting to contribute to my thought experiments. I just wanted to explain why I refrained from using something like you proposed. I have considered similar things before.

However, I used similar ideas to yours in other Karma reworks of mine. For example, I once had a tether, that was an ally heal over 2s, but instead of resistances, it had a missing% heal at the end .... and the mirror effect for enemies. It was basically an execute. But it donated kills to assisting allies instead. This was fine, however, since she had a stacking passive, that gained double the benefit from assists, so she would happily grant the gold to the jungler/ADC. But that's a story for another day.

Bootleg Gay1 votes

I'm happy you responded the way you did actually. You've given me more context to go with.

I didn't incorporate any Resolve to my own rendition because I wasn't sure just how. I could have it grant her more for successfully rooting a target, or even for each point she heals an ally. It could have even scaled based on the duration she manages to stick to get target.

I do get that bonus resistances can be underwhelming, but I think at the time, I assumed another heal, on top of the heal would have been overkill. Maybe if it's a big heal, with a tiny heal before, sure, but in order to feel impactful, it'd have to be a good one. Numbers, are of course, always up in the air though, so I digress. Granting life steal/spell vamp is nice, but that does imply you'd have to be in a fight in order to get use out of it, unless Karma jungle comes back again. This does yet still lead me to my own point.

I still think it should have a set amount of time to end, with a fixed cost, but need to reward her for staying close, but maybe punish her if she doesn't back up in time on an enemy, or if it keeps her away from another ally that could use her help.

I still like the root, and I find it a good part to her kit. My style of playing Karma involves moving around opponents and keeping them slowed, rooted, and by shielding myself. Staying in the fight should be rewarding, but risky. How far can she go in? How much mana and Resolve can she risk using before she's vulnerable?

I'm happy that you take the time to be an actual conversationalist. Not many on the boards do. I look forward to anything else you've got to talk about.

SilverSquid1 votes

I didn't incorporate any Resolve to my own rendition because I wasn't sure just how

I can't either, that's my problem. However, if you manage to make it fit her kit, give it counterplay, be visually clear and let it convey the thematics, let me know! This would be very exciting to see.

I do get that bonus resistances can be underwhelming, but I think at the time, I assumed another heal, on top of the heal would have been overkill.

This is spot on. I usually tend to move the heal from W to Q, to reintroduce the dualistic element, that's why I have to come up with something else for W. The one rework that had the heal on W instead had the damage amplification on the RQ (the killing combo was RQ-W instead).

I still think it should have a set amount of time to end, with a fixed cost, but need to reward her for staying close, but maybe punish her if she doesn't back up in time on an enemy, or if it keeps her away from another ally that could use her help.

Ugh. I usually do this. Maybe it is the best solution, but for this rework I tried something different. Mostly because it fit the resolve theme the best.

I still like the root, and I find it a good part to her kit. My style of playing Karma involves moving around opponents and keeping them slowed, rooted, and by shielding myself.

You mean, you like using Karma as a short ranged support mage, right? Maybe you like the fan-based rework of Karma more?

Staying in the fight should be rewarding, but risky. How far can she go in? How much mana and Resolve can she risk using before she's vulnerable?

They way you say this makes me wonder if a resolve version of her could work, that passively gave her resistances with resolve, but having resolve fuel her offensive abilities. This would, in fact, make her increasingly more vulnerable during the fight. However, I think this would take so much attention, that it would probably replace mana completely. Still worth thinking about.... gimme a few hours/days.

I'm happy that you take the time to be an actual conversationalist. Not many on the boards do. I look forward to anything else you've got to talk about.

I am glad you enjoy a thoughtful conversation too. Receiving some objective thoughts afterwards makes writing all of it worth it and allows me to build on them for further works.

If you check my profile, you will find 3 other reworks and a lot of threads on karma exclusively. I would, of course, love to have your input there, mostly on the reworks (which one you'd prefer, if any). In chronological order:

CatboyAsbel1 votes

tl;dr Karma is broken freelo right now. Don't fix my secret cancer ty.

Surfer Ashe1 votes

From what I've skimmed, Resolve sounds redundant, seeing the point of Mantra is to power up her basic abilities. So, what I'm reading here is you want to power-up her power ups?

Besides that fact, at level 18, the amount of Resolve you can carry on you is 140 (50+(18*5)), and she consumes 25 per cast? Definitely should be in multiples of 25.

But aside from these nitpicks, the real problem lies within -- Karma is going to be balanced around this "best case scenario" of having Resolve available because from what I read (or didn't see): Resolve is permanent till consumed and Resolve is refreshable by casting spells and autos. Meaning because it's an easy to access resource, it will be assumed Karma will be using this resource majority of the time, so when Karma doesn't have Resolve, her spells will feel awfully shitty.

SilverSquid1 votes

So, what I'm reading here is you want to power-up her power ups?

No. It's supposed to give her another layer to allow interactions with her shield, for example. It should also reward great Karma players differently than good ones, and can't be recreated by CDR alone. It's not "power up" but "unlock".

Besides that fact, at level 18, the amount of Resolve you can carry on you is 140 (50+(18*5)), and she consumes 25 per cast? Definitely should be in multiples of 25.

Resolve behaves in multiples of 5 (excluding W generation/drain). She does not CONSUME 25 resolve per cast, but can CREATE only UP TO 25 per ability. E.g. keeping W active on an ally will not get you endless amounts of resolve.

so when Karma doesn't have Resolve, her spells will feel awfully shitty.

She can't cast RW and RE without resolve. You can argue that this feels shitty. To meaningfully stack resolve, Karma needs to be in battle and doing useful things. Having a lot of resolve to spend is meant to be a reward for playing well.

Surfer Ashe2 votes

{quoted}

No. It's supposed to give her another layer to allow interactions with her shield, for example. It should also reward great Karma players differently than good ones, and can't be recreated by CDR alone. It's not "power up" but "unlock".

Resolve behaves in multiples of 5 (excluding W generation/drain). She does not CONSUME 25 resolve per cast, but can CREATE only UP TO 25 per ability. E.g. keeping W active on an ally will not get you endless amounts of resolve.

She can't cast RW and RE without resolve. You can argue that this feels shitty. To successfully stack resolve, Karma needs to be in battle and doing useful things. Having a lot of resolve to spend is meant to be a reward for playing well.

Okay, thanks for the clarification, but I don't believe a passive should be so limiting to a gameplay aspect of a champion.

Do you know how bad it feels sometimes to play Ashe and auto four times to get enough Focus to cast Q? If you're low on HP, getting those stacks become even more of an effort.

While I get the trade off in power is greater with Mantra-Resolve (?), the set up seems too limiting for a passive which should be a positive thing or create synergy within a champion's kit, not a limitor.

I'm up for a new passive, but I think she already has enough interaction and risk/reward in her kit where she doesn't need another layer of complication to fcuk her up.

Honestly, even trying to wrap my head around the numbers and things you did to her kit (W got totally reworked, again), it seems rather TOO complicated for the sake of being complicated. Remember: Riot don't like things "too mathy" (source: reason gave why Darius' ult deals true damage 2012)

EDIT: Even looking, best case scenario is she's a shield bomber again (or current AP rengar) because two mantra stacks and 100 resolve nuke for 600 + 1.2 AP ratio with a fraction of the effort. RQ cost is similar for a .1 AP ratio boost of the basic spell and a situational heal. And I shouldn't need to mention why RW isn't ideal in most cases.

Elikain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Surfer Ashe,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVBVLt2E,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-07T14:41:20.750+0000)

Do you know how bad it feels sometimes to play Ashe and auto four times to get enough Focus to cast Q? If you're low on HP, getting those stacks become even more of an effort.

Oh good. For a second i thought i was the only one insane when i clearly don't like this mechanic on Ashe that, as a completely immobile ADC and without a single dash, she has a stupid requirement to stay in a fight for as long as she wants to use her Q. Also, her lowest MS and HP pool is contributing to that problem as well.

SilverSquid1 votes

While I get the trade off in power is greater with Mantra-Resolve (?), the set up seems too limiting for a passive which should be a positive thing or create synergy within a champion's kit, not a limitor.

I honestly saw it more like Renekton or Rumble. Their secondary ressources limit them in a way and liberate them in others. I think that the silence on Rumble is pretty good design. I shied away from replacing mana straightup with resolve though, as it would require a lot of other factors to be adapted (cooldowns and stuff). But either way, I don't think of it as too limiting. Karma's basic kit should be able to be interesting on its own, while allowing for depth and strategy after doing a few good things. And, I mean, hitting enemies, shielding allies and using autos... is that really that unlikely to do?

I mean, I get it, it seems limiting compared to her current kit, but it also frees up the double charge situation and lower cooldowns on her ultimate.

I'm up for a new passive, but I think she already has enough interaction and risk/reward in her kit where she doesn't need another layer of complication to fcuk her up.

I honstly don't see a lot of risk-reward in her kit. But maybe you mean something different?

Honestly, even trying to wrap my head around the numbers and things you did to her kit (W got totally reworked, again), it seems rather TOO complicated for the sake of being complicated.

Trust me, I've spent days trying to make this work and appear as simple as possible. It's the most simple version of "giving all abilities interaction with a secondary resource/her passive" that is also as fair/feasible as possible, that I could come up with.

Even looking, best case scenario is she's a shield bomber again (or current AP rengar) because two mantra stacks and 100 resolve nuke for 600 + 1.2 AP ratio with a fraction of the effort

Actually going for RE+RQ seems more likely, because they can strike simultaneoulsy. But then again, this takes planning (stacking the resolve in advance) or quite some brawling before. RQ needs a straight line and RE needs a nearby ally to apply. I don't think this takes that little effort....

And I shouldn't need to mention why RW isn't ideal in most cases.

You mean because it's made for 2v2 lanes and duelling, not teamfighting? Or am I missing something?

Evenstar1 votes

SilverSquid, by the way, could I have your Skype ID? If you're alright with it, there's something I'd like to talk to you about. Just respond to me and we'll carry it from there.

SilverSquid1 votes

[deleted]

Evenstar1 votes

Received, go ahead and remove the ID.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I like what you're going for here, even with the heal on Q (which is something I found a little weird before). Having a secondary resource on Karma could be just the thing to add some much needed depth to her and make her more interesting. But as it's been said before, at this point I'd be grateful for anything which adds depth to Karma.

LilxPaprika1 votes

P - PASSIVE TOO COMPLICATED?

^this, TL DR though. Perhaps once implemented its would be easy to get. just on paper seems long

I guess it would work a bit like trynd fury. or like renekton bar?

you know what might be cool if you could spend the ult manta bar at any given point but for a % value that scales the more you have.

or have the ability to use her ultimate half way with the mantra like Renekton , but for half the strength, At full bar press R twice for full value or once for half the damage but can be split across two spells. That way you could both R q enemy and R shield your entire team. That would be a cool engage.

SilverSquid1 votes

I guess it would work a bit like trynd fury. or like renekton bar?

Something between Renekton and Jhin.

you know what might be cool if you could spend the ult manta bar at any given point but for a % value that scales the more you have.

I thought about it, but I don't think it's good to have this for more than one ability. Surfer Ashe explained why; Riot would be forced to balance it around the highest possible version, making everything but this one feel lackluster. So I tried to stick with fixed resolve costs for the main part and added some vents to W and RQ.

That way you could both R q enemy and R shield your entire team. That would be a cool engage.

Should still be possible. You get two mantra charges at lvl6. As long as you can afford the resolve costs, you could RE and then RQ (RQ won't have full effectiveness, unless you hit your full team).

Oksanaandjoy1 votes

Looks good. I like the idea of stacks to add the karmic aspect.

You need to keep the root on W to maintain her support kit.

Cool.

CoolKnightST1 votes

She just needs 2 things & 2 things only:

  • #New Passive: ???
  • An new passive, similar to her original passive "Innate".
    • Old: Karma gains increased Ability Power corresponding to her % of missing Health.
    • Sug: Karma generates stacks over time that she can consume as bonus Ability Power for het next ability. Karma can only consume 10/20/30/40/50 ability power add the same time (levels 1, 5, 9, 13, 17).
  • #Passive Gathering Fire:
  • Is now a passive for her "R Mantra"
CoolKnightST1 votes

That way Karma's will be less depended on ability power in her support role and will maintain a decent scaling over the course of the game. Her passive will form a nice opening of burst like her old kit. Their are a lot of people that stack her up with ability power runes so she can maintain that early burst. By giving it her naturaly a lot more options will be open.

As far her solo lanes goes. It will be a buff, it's a straight buff anyway. But toning down her dueling power is a lot easyer to tune down than the utility she provides so this won't be any problem. In worse case scenario the heal ratio of her W has to be tuned down for the abuse of the bonus ability power. Basicly reverting a buffs that riot randomly throws add her until they notice her real issue.

Their are plenty of topics that can confirm her passive is the issue right now. I litterly have no idea why they still didn't change it yet. What are they waiting for and why keep they buffing the wrong things.

SilverSquid1 votes

I don't get why they removed shieldbomb, which everyone liked, to buff a passive that no one likes. It's like they ignore their own design philosophies, just to f*ck with Karma.

Regarding your proposition: Depending on how fast it could stack, how high or dependent on what, this could be sweet. I don't know if it would solve her problems or what I would be going for if I had the choice, but at least it's better than the current one. The current one needs to be nerfed if moved to the ultimate, tho.

Surfer Ashe1 votes

{quoted}

I don't get why they removed shieldbomb, which everyone liked, to buff a passive that no one likes. It's like they ignore their own design philosophies, just to f*ck with Karma.

Regarding your proposition: Depending on how fast it could stack, how high or dependent on what, this could be sweet. I don't know if it would solve her problems or what I would be going for if I had the choice, but at least it's better than the current one. The current one needs to be nerfed if moved to the ultimate, tho.

The shieldbomb was only liked in old Karma's kit because Heavenly Wave (her old Q) had a pitiful range and her old W was wonky as hell as a "tripwire" effect. She really only HAD shieldbombing going for her.

It's honestly really gimmicky and it has little counterplay. Giving that ability roughly the same power as Ekko's ultimate (an ability that is RIDICULOUSLY hard to land as a nuke) going to make Karma into a gimmicky Shieldbomber. As nice as the other Mantra'd effects sound, if you aren't CCing, you need to be doing damage in this meta, and there is little reason to mantra anything else.

IxtaliKing1 votes

If shield bombing is a gimmick, then I guess all of the unique spells in the game are too. I'd call a 3.25s root on a kit that has nothing but a basic projectile and a weak auto attack to follow it up a gammick, but definitely not the shield bomb.

Surfer Ashe2 votes

{quoted}

If shield bombing is a gimmick, then I guess all of the unique spells in the game are too. I'd call a 3.25s root on a kit that has nothing but a basic projectile and a weak auto attack to follow it up a gammick, but definitely not the shield bomb.

It's a gimmick because this "new" new Karma will have nothing else going for her.

Remember her old Q, her heal/damage? How is this new Q much different besides "longer range"

It's gimmicky because if this were to be live, Karma will be defined solely by double mantra RE. What does her other abilities do? Doesn't matter XD

I mean, SURE, X% damage increase is nice, but what's more nice? Big numbers and disappearing HP bars. Why do you think aura's and other shit are undervalued despite being the most gold effective items in games? Partly because the magnitude of the effect is not visible. More proof? Sona's W powercord.

Right now, Karma has 3 clear spell identies - Q is her massive OMGWTFNUKE, her W is her CC and her E is her AoE team utility. With the proposed changes, you move her reason to use her Q for damage to E, while E is retaining the team utility of a shield. And then you straight up remove her CC.

So, in what I'd expect in over 75% of cases, her RE is her go to button mash because it's a one stop shop in terms of power and what it brings to the team, with faaaaaaaar less effort. No tether that requires you to be in danger, no delayed healing/damage or wonky healing/damage that takes time and chokepoints to pay off.

And that's what makes it gimmicky.

IxtaliKing1 votes

On paper I could see how someone might think that, but that was never really the case. Karma's RE was a spell that had very flexible usage, it could be used to engage, disengage or to deal damage. The removal of her shieldbomb only resulted in making her less interesting, her changes in general have done nothing but her more basic. Those 3 clear spell identities have turned her into an RQ bot, because the others are very lackluster and one dimensional.

Surfer Ashe1 votes

{quoted}

On paper I could see how someone might think that, but that was never really the case. Karma's RE was a spell that had very flexible usage, it could be used to engage, disengage or to deal damage. The removal of her shieldbomb only resulted in making her less interesting, her changes in general have done nothing but her more basic. Those 3 clear spell identities have turned her into an RQ bot, because the others are very lackluster and one dimensional.

On paper? There is literal proof - old Karma. You can just look at the numbers and see an AoE Veigar ultimate with a built in Locket for your team. How does that even remotely compare to what the other two abilities bring? And you still seem to be ignoring my point: the execution of the combo. It's braindead compared to the other two. The risk and reward of RE shieldbomb grossly outweighs anything else.

While current RW is lacking, I agree, but that has to do more with how the spell functions rather than the actual effect. RQ bot she may be, but at least RE has it's clear defined use, instead of giving it a two-in-one like the proposed change. Just because think she's an RQ bot currently doesn't justify turning her into an RE bot. Virtually, nothing changes.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I'm not talking about old Karma, the shield bomb was on her kit up to last year and it was perfectly fine, not over powered or under powered. The damage on her RE at max rank was 300+60% ap, hardly a veigar type nuke lol.

Surfer Ashe1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not talking about old Karma, the shield bomb was on her kit up to last year and it was perfectly fine, not over powered or under powered. The damage on her RE at max rank was 300+60% ap, hardly a veigar type nuke lol.

For some reason, I was still under the impression she still had that, forgot that random mini-rework.

You seem to have missed something crucial then sir. Mantra charges are at 2 in OPs proposition.

So it's 600 + 1.2AP ratio in a short timeframe.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol I didn't miss anything, my response was only to you calling her shield bomb gimmicky and basically making it sound like it was over powered. In fact, she was considered weak even with that spell because a lot things didn't exist in the game that do now.

Nameless Voice1 votes

I don't really like it.

This extra system just makes her empowered abilities much more complicated for no particularly good reason (juggling Resolve and Mantra charges), and it also massively affects the way she is played and makes her different from any other champion. You're basically saying that Karma would never be able to use her ultimate (empowered abilities) unless she was already deep in combat.

Imagine a situation where Karma is mid against someone, and they both die. By the time they get back to lane, her opponent would already have a large portion of the cooldown on their ultimate back - but Karma would have no Resolve and therefore no chance to start "recharging" her ultimate until she got back into lane and started trading with her opponent.

I'm not saying such a mechanic couldn't be a good thing (it's vaguely similar to Darius' ult), but I really wouldn't want to see that on Karma.

I kind of like the idea of being able to use her W on allies (I miss her old W speed-chain), but the "enemies take damage by attacking" thing is a really toxic mechanic. I don't want to see that in League, ever. It basically takes away the enemy's choices. They are left with nothing but "bad decisions", because everything they do will hurt them. The ideal response is to run away and not interact with Karma at all while tethered - that is not fun. A champion having something that their enemy cannot respond to at all is really bad design - just look at all of the champions that people despise the most, chance are they have some element of this.

SilverSquid1 votes

it also massively affects the way she is played and makes her different from any other champion.

That... was the point. I reckon you don't like Rumble, Azir, Khalista and Jhin?

but Karma would have no Resolve and therefore no chance to start "recharging" her ultimate until she got back into lane and started trading with her opponent.

Once back in lane she can do that. And even if she died, she could just retain the resolve she had before.

It basically takes away the enemy's choices. They are left with nothing but "bad decisions", because everything they do will hurt them

I think putting drawbacks on different options makes them interesting. It's not like it's impossible to tank through 20% of your own damage to kill Karma. Some champions might have the mobility to cancel the tether and reengage, just like today. Surviving with a sliver of health while killing Karma should feel great, because you estimated your damage accordingly, and she didn't. You did truly outwit her.

A champion having something that their enemy cannot respond to at all is really bad design

I think you have a lot more room to respond, thant to an Annie for example.

But if you don't like it, fair enough. It isn't my favourite rework either. But I like exploring possibilities and having conversations with the community about it.

Nameless Voice1 votes

Yes, but she's already different from any other champion in her own way (only Heimerdinger has something similar to her Mantra system.) My point was more that she already has something unique - this other mechanic would be interesting, but would fit better on an new champion, not on Karma.

I don't think it's an interesting drawback because it's a drawback on all of your options, not just some. Take a similar mechanic with Rammus' Defensive Ball Curl, or with Thornmail. You take damage from basic-attacking the enemy in question, but you still have the option to ignore them and attack someone else, or to use spells on them. But with this proposed tether, you can't do that. If you attack someone else, you still take damage. If you use autoattacks or spells, you still take damage. It's not just that one option (attacking Rammus) that has costs that you have to evaluate, but suddenly all of your possible actions (other than doing nothing, or running away) have costs, making nothing that you can do feel satisfying.

Anyway, that's just why I don't think these two ideas would work well for a Karma rework, but let it put you off throwing ideas around.

Bârd1 votes

I am fine with Karmas passive: it is a lot more powerful than it seems.

I like that spirit bond idea, but will miss that root.

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