If that Dragon 4 change goes through

Akali is SO HOT·Jan 29, 2016·96 votes·17,075 views

With Dragon 5 you'll have an Alistar ult against turrets

100 Comments

RiotMeddlerJan 29, 201661 votes

That number's going to be dropped in an upcoming PBE build, it's much higher than it should be. Next value's likely to be around the 15% mark (as opposed to the current 30%).

Akali is SO HOTJan 29, 20162 votes

Yay <3

Rabid HuskyJan 29, 20169 votes

will this mean towers will get a damage buff to compensate?

hopeful4Jan 30, 20164 votes

Then what exactly will be the point of this buff?

BluePolarizerJan 30, 201616 votes

Make this buff worth because turrets will hurt more if you don't have it.

My Waifu VanillaJan 30, 20162 votes

Ah but then it becomes a requirement to have it which means you technically will not be able to seige until 30+ minutes in the game.

BluePolarizerJan 30, 20168 votes

sieging is when you poke to force the enemy off the turret and let a long ranged ADC hit it. That hasn't changed. This changes diving and hard engages which isn't sieging.

The LovelessJan 30, 20164 votes

As weak as towers currently are, I'm fine with them being buffed. I played Diana last night and could destroy full hp towers after 5 hits (my passive only hit once) and my accompanying minion wave only had one cannoneer. By that point I had zhonyas and abyssal.

DairdrekJan 30, 20162 votes

You should try this with kassadin, the w passive lich bane and 850 ap just shreds a turret in seconds

Chaotic ReksJan 30, 20162 votes

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Son JarvanJan 30, 201624 votes

Dragons are fine the way they are? Do you follow the state of the game at all, or do you just like to make uninformed proclamations about it? At high levels of play, especially in professional play, it's been abundantly clear for many months that dragon is essentially worthless. The first dragon is nice, dragons 2-4 are irrelevant, and dragon #5 is the only reason to even be killing dragons after the first buff - but games very very rarely reach that point.

Why is this a problem? If the objective is worthless, it makes for less interesting games. Dragon is almost never contested in professional play, it's simply not worth fighting over, which means a lot of time is just spent in lane AFK pushing while waiting for an objective that actually matters to appear on the map (Baron). It completely changes the pacing of the game for the worse when there's not a meaningful early objective for teams to jockey for control of.

Chaotic ReksJan 30, 20162 votes

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Son JarvanJan 30, 201615 votes

When was the last time you watch professional play? 2012? Dragon is anything but highly defended, in fact it's basically the opposite of defended. If one team goes for dragon in the LCK you'll always see the other team immediately move not to defend dragon but instead to take Rift Herald in exchange. Rift Herald is also similarly useless, and they just trade low value objective for low value objective.

Dragons 2-4 don't really help with split pushing as much as you think. Dragon 2 only saves you a couple of AAs on a tower, which is fine but not going to compel people to take an objective. Dragon 4 is completely useless, a single spell rotation from any splitpushing or waveclearing champion that late in the game is going to kill minions with or without 15% extra. Dragon 3 is the most useful of the mid dragons, but the bonus is still small enough that teams don't put any kind of priority on it.

Fodder 69Jan 30, 20161 votes

All this. I always felt like Dragon 2 and 4 should be switched, which would just make 4 that much less meaningful but still the minion damage would be nice earlier.

My Waifu VanillaJan 30, 20166 votes

They were that way but it was switched to avoid top laners from getting GOOD split pushing power for doing absolutely nothing. Also getting the minion damage one made a lot or wave clear mid laners clear waves earlier thus making longer games due to it being harder to seige against them earlier.

XonraJan 30, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTUzkwbI,comment-id=0005000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-30T00:27:22.577+0000)

False. All 3 are major buffs to splitpushers and pushing in general.

Also false. Dragon is highly defended and only taken when the enemies bot lane or jungler are distracted.

You obviously don't watch many pro games. Most of the time one team is just getting a dragon because they have nothing else to do at that exact moment, and usually the other team isn't even bothering to stop them until it gets to maybe dragon stack 3-4.

It is a waste of time and resources to even bother stopping it, and sometimes putting in the commitment to get it, as you might die in a fight over an objective that even the pros think is useless currently (they've said it openly many times, this isn't just the boards or reddit saying this).

Chaotic ReksJan 30, 20161 votes

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XonraJan 30, 201610 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTUzkwbI,comment-id=000500020000000000010000,timestamp=2016-01-30T03:21:57.561+0000)

You're right. I could really care less about what goes on in the pro scene. All i know is that if something happens in the pro scene, it for some reason affects a bronzie like me.

Then perhaps don't try to make an argument that has any mention of pro games that you don't actually watch.

KillerKellJan 31, 20161 votes

It's the 6% Deal... you only take Dragon EARLY if you are going for a 5 Dragon Win Condition.

The resources to take Dragon 1 early, while exposing yourself to losing an Early Turret for it, are to great and sets you behind in both Gold and Level.

So you have to have either a really good Early Team to still be stronger despite the Level/Gold disadvantage of taking Dragon (funny how that is a Disadvantage)... OR playing for the Super Late Game (5th Dragon and the point where 6% AD/AP Bonus matters).

So I agree an Early Dragon is never contested... but Dragon is certainly contested once it gets to the point of being worth the expense to take it.

Kuronok2Jan 30, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTUzkwbI,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2016-01-30T00:05:58.857+0000)

Why are the dragon buffs being changed anyway? First off, the buffs are fine the way they are now. Secondly, towers are weak enough already right now, even without these buffs going through.

The buffs are not fine the way they are now. Shut up.

Noam BraumskyJan 30, 20163 votes

Could we get some context with that?

I'd actually like to know why the buffs aren't fine, and I'm sure the person you told to shut up would love to hear it too.

ValyrianBladeJan 30, 20165 votes

Dragon Buff 4 is completely irrelevant.

By the time you get to buff 4 it's at least 22 minutes, if not 30+.

You don't need 15% damage to minions at that point. It doesn't help you at all - any damage oriented champion can insta-kill each minion before the buff. Any non-damage oriented champion doesn't benefit from a damage buff. In general, none of the buffs help non-damage oriented champions (except dragons 3 and 5, and only a little for the MS).

So buff 4 is a huge waste. The only reason to get dragon 4 was to threaten for dragon 5. Games often don't last that long though, so instead of taking dragon 4 you're better off taking a turret and ending the game before dragon 5 spawns.

The change to dragon 4 makes real sense. 30% damage reduction is too much, but 15% sounds good. I don't think it should triple on dragon 5, perhaps only double (I'm sure they can pull that off). Damage reduction from turrets is useful late game as good waveclear teams can just stall under turret. It makes dragon 4 not quite as strong as Baron but still a reasonable option to crack a stall comp. If you recognize the enemy team has good waveclear, perhaps you'll prioritize dragons more.

Chaotic ReksJan 30, 20167 votes

The buffs are not fine the way they are now. Shut up.

What a smart and logical counterargument with key facts pointing out the flaws in my statement. Well done.

DecryptornJan 30, 20161 votes

Dude the only reason people get dragon is to prevent enemy team from getting it/devourer stacks/they have nothing else to do so why not/they can get Mord ghost or they cause a team fight there because they know they have a much better team fight comp and really just want to team fight (maybe thats what makes you think they're defending it but no alas they just want to bulldoze the enemy team). Now be a good boy and sit down

DairdrekJan 30, 20164 votes

It's people like you that make me fucking hate the community in league, you all act like you're completely superior to a guy just trying to share his opinion, and you're saying he's wrong or stupid. Seriously, does it really feed your overinflated ego to treat others like crap just because you don't agree with it? Could you have put your opinion in there without demeaning the other player? Yes, you could have, but you decided not to, because you wanted to look big and strong when really you just look like some jackass sitting at his computer all day treating people like shit because you have nothing better to do.

KillerKellJan 31, 20161 votes

If the only reason to get it... is to deny it... then what are you denying?

I mean, if it's worthless... why are you denying it?

But that's your point... take Dragon so they can't have it... despite it apparently being useless, so why would you care if they have it?

DairdrekJan 30, 20163 votes

The aggression was unnecessary, learn to respect opinions. I actually quite like the bonus movement speed, like if I were playing hecarim or Galio, it's really nice to have, the extra tower damage is nice cause I really like to split push, but these buffs aren't there to be completely game changing, they're there to make minor differences that give slight advantages. ( and before any of you go and check my account to see how shitty my rank is, I'm currently unranked and my rank last season was silver 3, so yeah I'm sort of noobish, but I understand how math works, and these buffs go a much longer way then you'd think. I also don't watch the pros because I really don't give a shit about LCS and I would rather just pay attention to what's going to help me in my games)

Kuronok2Jan 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The aggression was unnecessary, learn to respect opinions. I actually quite like the bonus movement speed, like if I were playing hecarim or Galio, it's really nice to have, the extra tower damage is nice cause I really like to split push, but these buffs aren't there to be completely game changing, they're there to make minor differences that give slight advantages. ( and before any of you go and check my account to see how shitty my rank is, I'm currently unranked and my rank last season was silver 3, so yeah I'm sort of noobish, but I understand how math works, and these buffs go a much longer way then you'd think. I also don't watch the pros because I really don't give a shit about LCS and I would rather just pay attention to what's going to help me in my games)

Only drag 1 and 3 are good the rest is a noob trap for your team to fight over it and die horribly. Not only that, but the dragon buffs currently only favor champions that build damage and only the MS buff help tank champions. Drag 1 improve AD and AP by % so it doesn't help tanks because they don't build those stats, drag 2 gives 15% more damage to towers, but since it's % and doesn't help tanks cause they do low damage. Drag 3 is good. Drag 4 is useless because at that point in the game you can clear the wave without problems.

We need better buffs for sure.

DairdrekFeb 2, 20161 votes

You ever thought maybe it was riots intention for the buffs to mainly benefit your carries? I mean towers are already squishy as it is, if the tanks got extra damage on them to, then they might as well not even be there. Secondly I think the minion damage is for defensive purposes, cause if they're pushed to yiur last two towers and they've got supers, I'd want as much clear as I could get. I get the feeling you play a lot of tanky champions, and that's why you feel like dragon is useless, cause yeah, they don't really cater to tanks, which is why they added rift herald, so that tanks would have something to go after to push harder. Also on buff 4 it increases damage to minions and monsters, the minion clear is kind of useless but the extra 15% damage on yiur junglers smite might be what saves baron for your team, because the enemy team was closing fast.its very situational usefulness but it's there, and if you want a tank who can push like a motherfucker, just pick nasus dude, q q q q q hue

SkiasJan 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The buffs are not fine the way they are now. Shut up.

Rude.

R3p0r7M3Jan 30, 201639 votes

{quoted}

That number's going to be dropped in an upcoming PBE build, it's much higher than it should be. Next value's likely to be around the 15% mark (as opposed to the current 30%).

What you mean that instead of taking 2% of my life as dmg from turrets I will not only take 1% ? So unfair!

hopeful4Jan 30, 20162 votes

You are supposed to protect the turrets in late game, not turrets protecting you. The damage they currently do is more than enough to change the course of a teamfight, assuming that the game isnt a complete stomp

Ariel the CruelJan 30, 201631 votes

How often are games not a stomp anymore? Might be a slow, but it's still a stomp if you have no way of coming back (short of throws).

hopeful4Jan 30, 20166 votes

Good, then the stomp will end faster instead of dragging out needlessly.

Noam BraumskyJan 30, 201611 votes

cough TL game cough

Rinky DinkyJan 30, 20162 votes

Throws are so common place that this argument shouldnt even be a thing

Vistha KaiJan 30, 201615 votes

Because you should put all your faith in the enemy team to fuck up instead of playing the game yourself.

Sneakyy XDJan 30, 20168 votes

{quoted}

That number's going to be dropped in an upcoming PBE build, it's much higher than it should be. Next value's likely to be around the 15% mark (as opposed to the current 30%).

Why is it anything above 0%? Towers are already absurdly weak; why are they able to be put into a position where they're even weaker? Are you (Riot) aware that the buffs dragon provides do nothing but snowball the game even harder? Is that something you (Riot) want?

ZarkkastJan 30, 20168 votes

But by the time a team has 4th dragon, they can already tower dive if they have a tank, this is not necessary.

It would only be a viable option if turret damage was overall stronger.

Penta PenguinJan 30, 20162 votes

Even 30% was useless, at least the minion damage helped teams push down fast if the opportunity struck

Diving champs do not need any more help surviving turrets at that point in the game

RisenDarkKnightJan 30, 20163 votes

Why did you decide to go with reduced tower damage for the 4th drag buff? It seems extremely situational since only one person at a time will be tanking tower, so usually 4 of the people won't utilize the buff since just one tank will aggro the tower. It's also useless for the team that is behind since they won't be near enemy towers, while the extra damage to minions was great for helping to defend.

JasiwelJan 30, 20162 votes

Can you at least consider buffing secondary turrets then? By the typical time you reach them, they melt by minion presence alone. With all the changes to minions and dragon's buff, I think Secondary Turrets need to see something in the way of bulk than just their shield. I know we want them to be fragile enough for split-pushing, but they are way too easy to take out at the moment. That same concept can apply to Inhibitor turrets.

GenghisEmoJan 30, 20163 votes

Towers dont punish enough, trust me, i ult as Vel or Xerath under enemy towers. I go in as Syndra, and as a tank im even more brave, Qing dudes as Voli or Vi for days.

This will only make it super easy to tank as Garen, Voli, Poppy (i tower dive a lot as Poppy now, imagine if changes hit live).

Why have towers?

AMYS GRAVEJan 30, 20162 votes

Yeah, because turret dives were so hard this season... kappa.

SkiasJan 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That number's going to be dropped in an upcoming PBE build, it's much higher than it should be. Next value's likely to be around the 15% mark (as opposed to the current 30%).

Does this mean turret damage will be increased to offset this a bit and make the buff more valuable? It seems like a good way to cut down on the crazy early game dives.

CrazyDiamôndJan 31, 20161 votes

I'm still waiting for you guys do a good job at balancing. Im really starting to question what the fuck are you guys doing. Turrets are already useless. After 4 years of playing I'm starting to lose motivation to play this game... There are many champions that need balancing (Fucking Fiora for example)

hopeful4Jan 29, 201611 votes

Who cares, in dragon 5 the game is pretty much gg anyway.

Finally teams will get punished again for leaving 4 dragons uncontested

BemaponJan 29, 20167 votes

Turrets? i was not aware those even existed anymore.

ForgotToShootJan 30, 20163 votes

Dragon 2 change is fine, I don't think dragon 4 is the right way to implement a change to pushing power. Problem is, by the time a team has 4 dragons (25 minutes at earliest, and that's incredibly unlikely) tanks already can dive turrets fairly easily, and even some fighters don't have much problems diving if they are ahead. Even if it's 15% (which would make it even more useless, but would prevent dragon 5 from being literally a "dive every turret in a row" win condition), that's not really an issue a lot of champions would have pushing turrets.

The things that make it hard to close out a game are lack of available vision options (now that green wards can't be bought, and SS nerfs), as well as heavy waveclear. If either of those things were chipped down by dragon buffs, then it might be good. For example, trinket CD reduction of 30% for the vision, or maybe if you like making turrets much weaker from dragon instead, have minions (all?/near champions?) also gain the damage reduction from turrets. This would help separate dragon 4 from baron by making minions better at taking turrets, but also would provide an enviroment where Anivia Viktor can't just clear every wave in a 4v4 siege with no problems (sidelane minions alone would threaten turrets left undefended). If this still doesn't feel good enough, have minions take reduced damage from enemy minions as well (I don't remember if this has been introduced yet with the team level advantage/lane turret advantage).