Oh, Riot removed one of the few masteries that benefitted tanks more than damage dealers.

WoonStruck·Oct 20, 2016·50 votes·9,003 views

Oppressor->Removed.

Replaced by Double-Edged Sword.

Gee, thanks Riot.

53 Comments

RiotSquad5Oct 21, 201634 votes

Battle trance.

WoonStruckOct 21, 201638 votes

Oh, you mean the new fighter/skirmisher/ADC mastery?

Most tanks have their damage front-loaded into their engage.

Appreciate you taking your time to visit the thread, though. (actually not sarcasm)

HowldoomOct 21, 20166 votes

Questions could be raised about concepts such as tanks NEEDING to supply a large damage increase into the fight in the first place, allowing the enemy team to scale high enough into the late game to wreck your tanks even allowing for defensive itemization ala Thornmail etc, tanks being dependent on a single mastery that while rewarding their high cc output was not entirely intended for them specifically, etc.

From what I'm seeing the damage choices now are between a 7.5% damage increase w/ 5 unique kills (highest damage increase, but a cost paid in having to get those 5 unique kills aka why most peeps were taking Oppressor instead), a 5% flat damage increase with a 2.5% increase in damage taken (you get your damage increase flat but pay for it in taking more up the a - - ), and a 5% damage increase with its cost paid in a 5sec charge-up time of 1%damage/sec. In that light, Oppressor had no actual cost for its damage increase apart from the need for the target to be afflicted by impaired movement (even slows), and the fact that cc'd enemies are far more prevalent in the game than five-man teams of easily-killed champions meant that though Oppressor's benefit was smaller than a farmed Bounty Hunter's, it was far more reliable to proc and therefore accounted for higher damage overall than Bounty Hunter's promises.

I guess the question here is: should tanks have to worry about their options for dealing higher damage to the enemy team themselves? They're already providing a meat shield that trips up and belly slams the enemy so that your f'ing Teemo can drag them to hell screaming (even more so in the new patch). And if the concern were about "being melted down in the late game", well, what does that say about fighters/skirmishers/adcs who are much much squishier and therefore more likely to worry about melting?

WoonStruckOct 21, 201621 votes

Considering tanks can't actually tank for significant periods anymore, relative to season 5 and earlier, they need to contribute more during those periods.

So yes. They do need the damage options.

If they want tanks to deal less damage (or use the new fighter/ADC mastery), they need to be able to tank for longer periods of time. By the time 5 seconds have passed, any fight, trade, or skirmish has already been decided. It DOES NOT benefit tanks.

OdinakosOct 21, 20162 votes

You are kinda wrong here. Tanks need damage for up to small number skirmishes, not full out teamfights. For the later they need durability and cdr to peel/lockdown for more exnteded periods of time. As number of enemies goes down, the expected time goes up along with damage contribution of the tank. And there it shines.

RalanrOct 21, 20162 votes

Which is why it's annoying for Oppresor to be removed. It was a damage amp that specifically helped tanks.

Now the only one in ferocity is exposed weakness.

Sire HippingtonOct 21, 20163 votes

Actually, most fighters and skirmishers have quite alot frontloaded damage aswell, it's prettymuch only juggernauts that have it somewhat backloaded. Melees with backloaded damage simply don't work at the current state of the game...

GULAG 4 UOct 21, 20161 votes

Can you please link masteries changes here? Thank you.

HowldoomOct 21, 20161 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/10/1020-pbe-update.html

GULAG 4 UOct 21, 20161 votes

Thank you :)

WarWorkOct 21, 20166 votes

How does this help tanks? It's the only skill in ferocity that they would like

Big LincolnOct 21, 20161 votes

this is only going to benefit juggernauts more than anything.

Darius, Illaoi, and maybe Nasus; does this affect the damage of his Q?

WoonStruckOct 21, 20161 votes

Affects anything that isn't True-Damage.

Big LincolnOct 21, 20161 votes

wew

I think Darius is going into ferocity tree then, that new fervor is too spicy to pass up

DariosOct 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lMrZdhAk,comment-id=0002000300000000,timestamp=2016-10-21T01:14:52.763+0000)

wew

I think Darius is going into ferocity tree then, that new fervor is too spicy to pass up

Depends on how you wanna play him.

Tychusfindlay919Oct 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lMrZdhAk,comment-id=0002000300000000,timestamp=2016-10-21T01:14:52.763+0000)

wew

I think Darius is going into ferocity tree then, that new fervor is too spicy to pass up

You dont think he wont want CoC?

His apprehend makes CoC a very viable option, it can massively extend the time he can stay in a fight to reach noxian might.

Big LincolnOct 21, 20161 votes

it's only 4 seconds long.

it's a nice shield to absorb some of the up front burst but he's already got plenty of in-fight sustain.

the AD bonus on the other hand means I can build tank sooner instead of Sterak's right after Cleaver and be more relevant in mid-game

Tychusfindlay919Oct 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lMrZdhAk,comment-id=000200030000000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-21T16:48:41.823+0000)

it's only 4 seconds long.

it's a nice shield to absorb some of the up front burst but he's already got plenty of in-fight sustain.

the AD bonus on the other hand means I can build tank sooner instead of Sterak's right after Cleaver and be more relevant in mid-game

"Already got plenty of in fight sustain"

He already has plenty of in fight damage.

But its arguably better to take the tankier keystone since it better ensures reaching the condition for unlocking his in fight damage.

Late game you get bursted like a total fuck, CoC will be way more valuable then.

RaxistaichoOct 21, 20165 votes

Oppressor was too ubiquitous. Aside from just being a "Here, have some free damage :D" for most tanks, it was also too generally good on mages and even fighters as long as they had any cc at all.

WoonStruckOct 21, 20165 votes

So any of the other masteries that are taken 100% of the time by specific roles aren't too ubiquitous?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Oppressor relative to the rest of the trees.

If you say Oppressor was too ubiquitous, you should instead be saying that all three trees need to be scrapped and redone (they do).

Ferocity

T1 was one or the other based on abilities/auto attacks

T2 is feast unless you're bad or have way too much sustain already

T3 was Natural Talent.

T4 was oppressor if you had any CC

T5 was one or the other depending on AD or AP

Cunning

T1 is Savagery unless you're support/jungler

T2 Solo lane? Assassin. Jungler? Runic.

T3 Always Merciless unless you want to AFK farm

T4 Are you a support or Gangplank? No? Dangerous Game

T5 Do you rely on one rotation or two?

Resolve

All left side or you're a fool

And you're going to say Oppressor, specifically, was too ubiquitous?

DKM BismarckOct 21, 20165 votes

Double Edged Sword is good for assassins like Talon or Zed lol. I never take Feast on them

Wanderer is viable on roaming mids. Stash is good on many mages, and in counter lanes. Meditation is good on severely mana hungry champions

Unyielding is also pretty good lol I dunno what you're talking about dude there are a fair number of situational masteries.

OdinakosOct 21, 20161 votes

Just to add for that, there are situational for the same champion. Eg lets take Vi for example. Do you go AS or ability damage? Really depends on the match and how much you expect to live. Short term ability damage is good for burst, but if you manage to survive long, AS provides better clear and dps.

MirkhailOct 21, 20161 votes

FEROCITY T2 double edge sword was very common even on adc T3 a lot of champions took vampirism, even rarely some mages

CUNNiNG T1 wanderer was really helpful to roam and often picked T2 secret stash was pretty common, a weak early game champion couldn't use assassin very well T3 meditation isn't bad but people always prefer more damage

RESOLVE T1 saw both used T2 explorer was cool but tough skin wasn't bad early T3 runic armor was more common but not universally used, not every champion have shield or innate sustain T4 insight was always good but a lot of champions could have used perseverance

RalanrOct 21, 20162 votes

Why remove oppressor though?

MarshbouyOct 20, 201613 votes

I'm going to blatantly assume they thought it would be OK because they are kinda, uknow, adding a mastery that gives a huge shield upon CCing someone.

WoonStruckOct 20, 201610 votes

Meanwhile adding more damage to the damage trees without any push to make the tankier champions (or ones forced to build tankier) that can't take Courage towards viability, since those champs already get melted.

What they really needed was to be made squishier in exchange for that damage when they already can't survive in fights.

Right.

Good job Riot.

Spice POWAHOct 21, 20163 votes

Actually, unless I missed something, double-edged sword is where oppressor used to be, so now people need to pick whether they want scaling damage, flat damage, or power-over-time, right?

LazyW0lfOct 21, 20163 votes

That would be correct, but the flat damage is the only choice that has an increase to damage taken as a downside, as opposed to being gated by time/kills respectively. I'm actually not sure why OP is complaining, Battle Trance seems great on those tankier champions who wanted more damage.

WoonStruckOct 21, 20164 votes

A few reasons.

A) Battle Trance wasn't listed at the time

B) It benefits fighters WAY more than tanks, especially since tanks have most of their damage front-loaded.

C) Tanks no longer have that early-mid game period, before Bounty Hunter usually came into its own. Since tanks get melted late game despite surviving being their entire goal, that early-mid game advantage is kind of warranted. Its mitigated now.

If tanks could actually survive that long late game, yeah, maybe.

However, currently they get bullied out of early game if they aren't in the jungle, and they get melted late game. Oppressor fit the the perfect in-between.

StevoTheCreatorOct 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile adding more damage to the damage trees without any push to make the tankier champions (or ones forced to build tankier) that can't take Courage towards viability, since those champs already get melted.

What they really needed was to be made squishier in exchange for that damage when they already can't survive in fights.

Right.

Good job Riot.

to be fair the game is generally more fun when tanks are able to die rather than have to utterly ignore them while everyone is squishy hunting...

i would rather give them more engage/support utility to make games faster and give them something to deal with ever oppressive 2 carry 2 waveclear teamcomps

SpecterVonBarenOct 21, 20165 votes

It's not about no one being able to kill them, it's about EVERYONE being able to kill them. DPS is supposed to be their weakness but even burst damage will kill a tank easily.

Bladerunner7777Oct 21, 20162 votes

If a tank can't take Courage, they can more than likely take Grasp

Tanks that don't have good CC almost always have a ton of health (Mundo, Garen, etc)

if they have neither well... that's one terrible tank

Critmaster GarenOct 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

If a tank can't take Courage, they can more than likely take Grasp

Tanks that don't have good CC almost always have a ton of health (Mundo, Garen, etc)

if they have neither well... that's one terrible tank

problem is grasp sucks dick, and so do the masteries all the way down to it.

the only masteries juggernauts even synergize with is runic armor, tenacity and legendary guardian. and the last 2 are taking up the same slot.

why would i not go for like 20% much less situational damage increase in ferocity + cunning over shit like 2 damage blocked and some resistances next to turrets?

even the new fearless mastery is not that great considering it only lasts for 2 seconds on a 9 second cooldown. its more for engage tanks who pick it together with colossus and legendary guardian for a massive burst of defense when hard engaging into the middle of the enemy team.

DurfainOct 21, 20161 votes

if I can't take Courage, I'm going either TLD or fervor on my tanks - both the DPS trees got buffed to high hell (which is funny since they were already strong in S5) while in Resolve my new options (aside from the awesome shield) amount to: well, you're going to be hanging next to your turret as a tank anyway with all this new damage we're adding to the other trees so here's a bone: 8 armor/MR!

LordKentravyonOct 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to blatantly assume they thought it would be OK because they are kinda, uknow, adding a mastery that gives a huge shield upon CCing someone.

Not everyone who would be interested in the resolve tree has hard cc / enough hard cc to get repeat use of the shield

Critmaster GarenOct 21, 20169 votes

you get courage of the collossus, and fearless for it. honestly, i think engage tanks are going to be godlike this preseason.

juggernauts are the ones who are getting the shaft imo. they have low synergy with the new resolve masteries since they lack the cc to proc colossus, and fearless is situational. (great in combination with legendary guardian for champions who hard engage into the middle of the enemy team).

its still going to be mostly ferocity/cunning for them.

i mean just imagine Malphite ulting into the enemy team for a gigantic shield, and immediate massive resistances on top of that shield as soon as he takes damage.

Tychusfindlay919Oct 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lMrZdhAk,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-21T05:15:41.058+0000)

you get courage of the collossus, and fearless for it. honestly, i think engage tanks are going to be godlike this preseason.

juggernauts are the ones who are getting the shaft imo. they have low synergy with the new resolve masteries since they lack the cc to proc colossus, and fearless is situational. (great in combination with legendary guardian for champions who hard engage into the middle of the enemy team).

its still going to be mostly ferocity/cunning for them.

i mean just imagine ulting into the enemy team for a gigantic shield, and immediate massive resistances on top of that shield as soon as he takes damage.

Sadly, when tanks become popular, logically, juggernauts should become more popular as well.

Trundle and darius are probably going to be placed in the spotlight.

Garen perhaps not so much.

PhoenixOrtuOct 21, 20162 votes

Considering Garen has no hard cc or engage, I see your point, he won't be beniffiting from any of the new masteries. Investing in one of the other trees probably won't even pay off, considering how much slow and mobility champs have been a thing forever. My guess is he will see even less play than he already is, especially since there's a good chance that hard cc/engage tanks or ranged poke champs like jayce will be the preferred top meta. Same will most likely be the case for morde. I'm hoping for a proper rework for them both, they deserve better than how riot treats them atm.

HazyCloud7Oct 21, 20164 votes

Have you see the new courage of colossus keystone? Tanks are going to be absolutely godlike if that mastery remains as is.

PrimaquariusOct 20, 20161 votes

I never use DES that much, kinda sad

ProfDrDeathOct 21, 20161 votes

Good thing you still have two options, then.

Take Bounty Hunter for up to 7.5% increased damage or Battle Trance if you can survive for 5 seconds.

LovelleOct 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Good thing you still have two options, then.

Take Bounty Hunter for up to 7.5% increased damage or Battle Trance if you can survive for 5 seconds.

Not even most tanks can survive 5 seconds in teamfights anymore, much less bruisers. Mid-late game damage output is far too high for that.

NevermoreOfRavenOct 21, 20161 votes

Honestly riot either needs to buff some choice tanks like they buffed nunu or they need to rework them so that they can have some actual presence in the game. Because right now they are basically ignored and most teams don't even pick tanky tops anymore. Like sion and malphite have a super hard time in lane and are basically cannon fodder until mid game then after it the adcs build armor pen and jsut wreck your face the rest of the game while you are trying to peel.

With the new lethality changes and not its gonna scale they are gonna need to buff them or you will see a rengar top meta and no one wants to see that (except maybe rengar mains). Honestly i wish i could play sion, nasus, volibear but they get rofl stomped by laners like riven and irelia since they both can still provide cc and peel kinda for their teams. Its not really fair for you have a bad laning phase, poor mid game if you didnt go even cs and then be the hot butter their adc/riven cuts through in late game. This is why i stopped playing them and why the only real tanks left are malphite and singed since they basically have escapes to be safe and go at least even then be able to scale into mid game. This is why you see the jayce, kennen, yasuo tops now also since riot has basically nerfed or ignored all the other tanks for so long.

With the lethality changes i don't see myself picking up top lane tanks again any time soon. The worst part is that riot is basically gonna force the rengar and ad carry top lane with these changes and tanks are gonna go almost out the window. Maybe i am just jaded but it would be nice for tanks to have an actual place in the game instead of the o welp lost lane, could do nothing mid game and got melted late game and now with lethality the ad is gonna scale better into me so i guess i'm packing my bags and heading into the jungle/support role.

One last thing i might add on my way out is that the top lane is gonna be even worse than the jungle after these changes and right now unless riot fixes something the assassin rework could be as bad as the juggernaut patch was. WELP I'll see you top side when i pick up rengar and play him till he is nerfed maybe even pick up the other soon-to-be broken champions (perhaps you will see the kha'zix\talon top too and riven could only get stronger on this patch) until they nerf 'em back to the juggernaut patch.

georgegymOct 21, 20161 votes

Garen skin

God Went MIAOct 21, 20161 votes

Because tanks need more damage. They're already doing as much as Marksman but that's not enough for Riot. We need to ruin the balance EVEN MORE

Meep ManOct 21, 20161 votes

Tanks don't need more damage. They need more defenses. It is the fact Tanks are allowed to deal decent damage in the first place that has caused such a mumbo jumbo of balance problems in the past.

WoonStruckOct 21, 20162 votes

If engages are going to be as short as they are, yes they do need damage so they have a relevant impact. Just being a one-and-done CC-bot in this meta isn't relevant impact if you're not a support.

If tanks could tank for longer periods, I would definitely agree that they don't need more damage (part of why Alistar losing his AD on ult is a good thing). However, Riot seems vehemently against enabling such things. As it currently stands, they do need the damage.

Not only that, but tanks already suffer during laning. If they don't have a relevant threat 1v1, they essentially cannot function outside of jungle/support. Most tanks don't have kits that allow them to function well as a jungle/support.

MightyCaesar37Oct 21, 20161 votes

Tanks still outclass most damage dealers in objective taking and team-fighting, Stop whining and use the other two trees where most tanks should be anyway.

WoonStruckOct 21, 20161 votes

Actually, objectives and team-fighting revolve around the damage dealers. Tanks are just a way for yours to move in towards theirs.

Hard to say they're better at teamfighting if the most important roles in team-fights aren't tanks. You can only really make that argument if you're talking about assassins.

Tanks don't usually go down Cunning because Feast and relevance awaits in the Ferocity tree. If you don't go down Ferocity as a tank, you're probably a support.

deadlychuckOct 21, 20161 votes

I think the main criticism i'd have of the new mastery is that they seem to think that it will be most effective on tanks, when really it will likely benefit AoE disruption champions, and the benefit tanks see is just overlap of the the two designs.

As if Yasuo didn't get enough shielding with his passive already, now he can get shields for every 3rd Q he lands (with it's 5 sec CD), and for every champion he Ults.