@Riot A Question on Runes

Meep Man·Dec 3, 2015·7 votes·23,972 views

In the recent Podcast, you guys noted that Masteries were (if I heard it right) bad because everything was kind of set down and "Everyone knew exactly how to build a certain champion and little interaction was added from them". I was wondering if you plan on doing the same thing with Runes to where, instead of giving stats, runes instead give a bunch of small passive effects with Quints giving larger effects and other runes giving lesser effects? Do you plan on doing something like this?

35 Comments

RiotMeddlerDec 3, 201514 votes

Eventually, yes, we'd like to do some work on Runes to make them a more interesting and less raw stats based system. At a guess that would probably still include some stats of course, but in a more engaging way.

In terms of timing though that's not project we're currently working on or have scheduled. It'd be good stuff to do, but it's in the 'someday' category, rather than the 'soon' or 'planned for sometime in 2016' baskets, since we feel other work is more important first.

Earl EulrichDec 3, 20153 votes

so are you content with the mastery changes? for me personally i have to say they seem to be less interessting than the old ones so far...for most champs and purposes there is one tool and that´s it.

on runes: there´s still not much reason to ever get tier 2 runes, why didn´t you just get rid of them this preseason?

exe3Dec 3, 201515 votes

How happy are you guys with the new mastery system? I liked the direction but I feel the system still has a laundry list of flaws.

For starters there's extremely little variation (even moreso than before) because for example no one other than support will take Bandit leaving you with literally only one other choice and I somehow doubt your ADC will be picking up Sorcery (except for off builds ala mid Varus) or Piercing Thoughts. However this is less a problem with the new system and more an issue with the specific masteries available at this time. More masteries are needed like Assassin.

The other main issue is the 5 point tier. Does anyone actually put partial points into multiple masteries? This looks like it's only there for the lvl1-30 experience of accumulating your mastery points. But what if the masteries scaled non-lineraly? eg: instead of Unyielding giving a linear 1.2% AR/MR for each point it scaled for example, 1.3/2.3/3.1/3.7/4% with less gains as you get further in. This way if someone strictly wants all the MR/AR they can get they will drop all 5 point into it but if someone also wanted some health regen from Recovery they could split their points without feeling like they were wasted points because both values end up being so small. Though you could also argue this is the issue with stat based masteries (or stat based anything really), it's that there ultimately is one best 'correct' way to spend your points depending on who you are which is why we wanted masteries to move away from them which you guys only half did.

Disappointing news about the runes. I was hoping they were an active project given you guys almost did a full rebalance of them a few preseasons back but backed off when it became clear how much of an overhaul they needed. :(

DantilqDec 3, 20152 votes

Don't underestimate bandit! It's a great mastery even on other champs than support, especially long range champs.

It's good on to example Caitlyn, or other champs which naturally harass with autos.

exe3Dec 4, 20152 votes

I'm thinking more along the lines of the gold gain from allies killing minions. For farmers it's useless since you are the one last hitting.

Meep ManDec 4, 20152 votes

It still gives 1 gold even if no one last hit the minions, an error in the tool tip. I get it on Bankplank and other fighters that scale well with gold.

Champion SkinDec 5, 20151 votes

Oh yeah it gives 10 gold to GP when he shoots an enemy doesn't it? That's pretty good XD

And yeah I guess it kind of works in most melee vs melee match ups as you should be able to get in a couple of auto attacks here and there

DairdrekDec 13, 20151 votes

I take it on Varus after I get my 18 points in ferocity, because the utility tree is more useful to me than the tank tree, but not by much, so I take it, but I would rather have the season 5 masteries back

RiotMeddlerDec 4, 201515 votes

Pretty happy so far, though our expectations weren't that things would be perfect from the start. Our goals were to make masteries that were noticeable in game, that modified how you and other players played to a moderate amount and that had some meaningful choice to them. We feel we're hitting the first two goals fairly well. Choice is present in some cases, though some Masteries do feel mandatory or pointless for some champions.

One of the next things we'll be doing is gradually fleshing out the Tier 1 and Tier 2 keystones to 3 choices each. Intent there is to offer options for champions that aren't drawn to some trees at present to offer more choice between trees while also offering choices between masteries at a tier for those already using them. We also want to help out some classes that aren't currently being well enough served (assassins in particular). Additionally there's still a fair bit of balance tuning needed on some of the existing masteries, where there are potentially interesting choices to be made once the numbers are refined into the right spots.

The 5 point stat masteries by contrast aren't intended to be choices generally. Stats are much, much easier to optimize, but do need to be provided to give champions appropriate functionality and define how attractive each tree is to any given champion. We're fine with those often feeling predetermined at some tiers as a result, with some options on certain champions depending on how you want to play.

LuciferDec 4, 201513 votes

I feel like you guys succeeded in that regard. I find masteries much more engaging than before. I think the big problem right now is just lack of choice, especially for most AP champions, which pretty much only have two routes - both of which are still almost identical.

The tooltip is also still wrong on Thunderlords summoner 4 s away~

LankPantsDec 4, 20152 votes

I think you need to look at Strength of Ages.

Out of all of the keystone masteries that's the only one that's always a bad choice. It's in a position where you should never take it. Even the HP scaling tanks who it should be good on like Sej/Shen/Naut prefer Grasp of the Undying because it just does a lot more.

Literally An OwlDec 7, 20151 votes

It's pretty good on someone who likes tankiness but starts out building kinda squishy. Which is pretty much just Warwick afaik, but still.

LankPantsDec 7, 20151 votes

The problem is that Fevor of Battle and Grasp of the Undying are way better on WW.

exe3Dec 4, 20152 votes

Thanks for the reply.

For your comments on the 5 point masteries, don't we already have pure stats served via Runes? I always saw Runes as being about what stats you want and masteries being about what unique effects you want.

Also you wish to add more masteries to the keystone tiers but what about the 5-point tiers?

Bodkins OddsDec 4, 20153 votes

What are your thoughts on Natural Talent?

I personally think it's in a weird spot where it's never better than Vampirism at any point in the game for any champion. Have you thought about replacing the scaling stat bonus's with a flat percentage bonus? E.G. 6% More Bonus AD & AP. It still wouldn't be very good early game, but at least it would be better than Vampirism during the mid-to-late game.

nigiotDec 4, 20152 votes

I think the masteries are too focused on buffing your own champ when they should be used to counter the enemy or synergies with allies.

Right now, no matter how much viable choice there is, players can just mobafire a page without even reading the masteries and be 100% effective.

Its a totally opposite philosophy than the itemization changes you guys have made recently. (steraks vs burst, randuins vs crit, giants slayer vs tanks etc.).

The s4 def tree was really cool because it had stuff like -10% crit damage, -3% AoE damage, -3% vs cced targets, tenacity, etc. The page had to be adjusted every game.

Maybe it's intentional, but I'd really like to see players with strong game knowledge be rewarded with a tiny advantage.

Literally An OwlDec 7, 20151 votes

Maybe the idea is to make masteries (which are decided before the game begins) proactive, and leave the reactive plays for itemization (since you make choices about those in-lane)

braidedadhesiveDec 4, 20155 votes

Have you considered letting people put all points in one tree? Would be nice to have the option, even if you're still limited to one keystone. Before it was possible to make a pure tank or hybrid glass cannon page, now we are forced to put points in other trees even though they may not be very useful.

6SfoolDec 13, 20151 votes

I've been wishing there was a way to start from the op of the tree again. Like if you already spent 18 in a tree then it would let you put the next 6 or 12 in the first tiers. I always went straight 30 in defense as braum and other tanks, but now I can't.

NssheepsterDec 14, 20152 votes

Any chance you guys are thinking of "linked" runes? IE, take up, say...all three quint spots for a large, special boost. Instead of this being a flat stat boost, it could be something "odd", like say, % damage or cc buff to Q/W/E/R. % crit reduction, maybe. Some of the unique item passives would also be kewl here. Similar things could be done to the other areas. Maybe instead of buying tons of CDR Glyphs to get that 5% you want, and then filling the other spots, a linked glyph for that % could be sold.

I like the idea of Keystone masteries, also..I feel like the game needs more things like this. Going from, say, Thunderlord's to Grasp of The Undying, makes Volibear play differently, but are both viable. I think the game needs more things like that. I don't think anyone should be able to say, "Oh, It's X vs Y matchup. This is what will happen at every part in the game. Okay then". If masteries and runes do "odd" things that really alter the playstyles, viably...then this is no longer an issue.

Also, giving flat stats seems odd, to me, in runes/masteries. I feel like flat stats are gotten in game, on items. I understand, and enjoy, % stat buffs, like Max Health or MS quints...But giving flat stats? Underwhelming. That kind of thing becomes a numbers game, and there'll be an easy answer, by the math, as to what to use. But MS or Max Health quints on volibear? Both viable. Both are about as useful, in all parts of the game....So it's up to preference.

I also miss the armor-magic resist mastery thing you guys had, that turned armor into MR or MR into armor, whichever you had more of...It was a lot of fun, it was great in so many games, and even if you ended up building both, the mastery still saw use. I really expected it to be a Keystone mastery, but it's just gone now....RIP. Rammus and Galio sadness. Well, tank in general sadness. It was also nice to be able to punish heavy AD or AP teams with this mastery. It gave you just enough Arm or MR to deal with the little bit they'd build to try to deal with your resists.

SpoofghoulDec 4, 20151 votes

I take bandit on Gangplank Getting gold for poking with q is always a good thing lol It is not as bad as it looks on some champions just saying.

But i do think each tier could at least have 1 more mastery choice.

darkdillDec 3, 20151 votes

As long as we're on the topic, though, I have some questions.

Firstly, is it possible you might for the moment add in some % penetration runes? Right now, Flat vs. % has become a division between "kill squishies" and "kill heavies", but you can't optimize your runes for the latter, only the former.

Second, if you were to change the rune system, would you add a fifth rune type that acts like a Keystone mastery? Or would that overcomplicate things?

ApexInTheCircleDec 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Eventually, yes, we'd like to do some work on Runes to make them a more interesting and less raw stats based system. At a guess that would probably still include some stats of course, but in a more engaging way.

In terms of timing though that's not project we're currently working on or have scheduled. It'd be good stuff to do, but it's in the 'someday' category, rather than the 'soon' or 'planned for sometime in 2016' baskets, since we feel other work is more important first.

I can't speak for everyone, but I would like to see some very interesting runes that are alittle bit out there.

Like thornmail runes that reflect alittle bit of damage back at enemy attackers. Sight runes that increase your champions vision range by a small bit or increase ward vision range (this would make them great on a support) Runes that increase healing done to allied champions.

Runes, as I understand them, are there to be a customization of your early game or investment into late game depending on your setup. Having more options can never be a bad thing.

Sire HippingtonDec 4, 20152 votes

Do you think you hit your goal with masteries so far? Cause fankly, i don't. The concept is very promissing, but prettymuch non of the lower tier masteries offers a meaningfull decission, and even the keystones are way more often than not already set in stone by champselect.

For more detailed feedback: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5ctAhEh2-detailed-preseason-feedback-part-3-masteries

EcchiOtakuTMDec 4, 20151 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/yYBm9rXq-i-honestly-love-the-changes-placed-in-however-i-as-well-as-many-have-a-few-suggestions

17 would do a lot for it.

Along with 3, 5, and 6.

Lovely PantsDec 4, 20152 votes

I'm curious as to what kind of options you would be open to exploring when it comes to changing up the rune system.

There are at least a handful of people, myself included, who would be just as happy if the rune system were completely abolished since it only really seems to be one more piece of support installed in the early days of league that never actually served its purpose of adding customization to player experience. A cynical part of my mind might then say, "of course its actual purpose is to be a giant IP sink coercing new players into spending actual money to both be able to have a wide roster of champions they like and be able to play them optimally," but I think everyone can agree that would feel really shitty if it were specifically intended to serve that purpose. (Besides, you have more sophisticated ways of forcing us to give you money now, like Dragon Trainer Tristana.)

_I don't disagree with you _ that there are a ton of other improvements I am personally glad your teams are working on before tackling the makeshift prop that is the runes system, but maybe I feel significantly more apprehensive than you do about what your options are now that you have left it so long.

It doesn't matter to me personally any more because I have already long since purchased as many runes as I intend to and I decided not to care about optimizing anymore as long as I can have a functional setup. I do hate seeing new players struggle with the no-win situation of getting past rune purchases and personally wouldn't even care about being reimbursed to see the situation changes in their favor,. However, the longer this situation has been drawn out, the more entitled older players are likely to feel about having to have lived with the system for so long and putting their own time and money into rune pages.

I know that as a new player I was originally excited with the possibility of customizing a handful of champions I really enjoyed with runes, until I discovered that it was all a lie. However, I don't see how you can actually make runes both meaningful to own a lot of and satisfactory to own a few of. Those two goals seem to require opposite extremes of power allotment. I feel like any changes made will continue to contribute to the frustration of the newer player experience as a sacrifice.

To sum up this entire ramble, I can't help but feel that the future of the rune system is going to hurt a lot of players no matter what you do, but everyone certainly experiences some level of resentment towards it in the meantime. I don't know. I'm kind of hoping you can reassure me with less bleak options being explored than the ones I currently imagine will pan out (including just an eternal delay of ever dealing with the issue)

SpoofghoulDec 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Eventually, yes, we'd like to do some work on Runes to make them a more interesting and less raw stats based system. At a guess that would probably still include some stats of course, but in a more engaging way.

In terms of timing though that's not project we're currently working on or have scheduled. It'd be good stuff to do, but it's in the 'someday' category, rather than the 'soon' or 'planned for sometime in 2016' baskets, since we feel other work is more important first.

I think runes are okay for now probably better to first make sure the masteries are all good.

You guys ever think about adding a 4th mastery tree? Or filling mastery trees with 4 choices per tier? Plenty of stuff you can still do with the masteries.

Lady HammerlockDec 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Eventually, yes, we'd like to do some work on Runes to make them a more interesting and less raw stats based system. At a guess that would probably still include some stats of course, but in a more engaging way.

In terms of timing though that's not project we're currently working on or have scheduled. It'd be good stuff to do, but it's in the 'someday' category, rather than the 'soon' or 'planned for sometime in 2016' baskets, since we feel other work is more important first.

if it does happen and you change the runes will we get a full refund on our runes?

Meep ManDec 4, 20151 votes

Thanks for replying and Im glad to hear it! I always love making a champion more fun and crazy to play!

EinharDec 5, 20151 votes

Maybe something similar to how Dawngate did theirs?

ObechoscNov 3, 20161 votes

I would like to reply by posting what I have just posted to a YouTube video discussing Runes:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rune Costs and Obtain-ability------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Compared to Champions and Skins)

Instead of making runes free, couldn't riot give more IP per game? Perhaps based on your champ score, or a new champ bonus for encouraging players to try other champs?(on top of larger parties of people) People who are new could then spend the IP on either runes or champs quickly and effectively. older players, such as myself, who have all champs and most runes, could just spend the extra IP on new champs as they come out and runes as they see fit.

The champs IP cost would go up to entice players to buy RP, but leaving the runes IP cost the same so as not to disrupt the older players peaceful experience and previous purchases. When the champ IP increases this will allow players that have bought the champ with IP not to feel cheated. The bottom line is, champs can be bought with real money, runes cannot. you can buy boosters with RP but you still have to grind the games to get the IP. IP in this case serves as a reward, a reason to play more games, or when a loss occurs having a "well at least I am closer to a rune or champ" effect.

While runes being free has potential to create "diversity" in the runes chosen, I think it will have an opposite effect. If players are allowed to choose whatever, then players may easily go with what works best, from guides online. But if these players are in situations where they don't have all the runes listed in a guide then those players, such as myself, need to come up with creative substitutes.

All in all, riot has made an in game currency obtained by playing the game. At some point, and after many games, the player will obtain more in game currency than they can spend on the game. For those who play a lot or have a budget set aside for gaming and spend money on champs, and have accumulated all champs by now, which reading the comments seems to be quite a few, need something to spend it on.

If runes are free, then IP is only for champs, which have a more distinct advantage then runes for the most part as they are prioritized above runes. (I prioritized Volibear in 2011 because he looked awesome, [still same splash art= still same awesomeness]). In conclusion, should Riot actually make runes free? (rune pages yes, but runes?) or should they give more IP so runes are prioritized in their own right, and substantially easier to obtain? or perhaps there is something else that can be done?

Something else that can be done to allow players to obtain runes is to put them in the hextech thing, (which is a great addition for those youths who may not be able to buy cool skins, which I don't think riot gets enough notice or credit for) or win IP boosters.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rune Page and Rune Page Usage Before and During Queue------------------------------------------------------------------------- (In comparison to: Masteries and concerning: Champions)

Difference of runes and masteries: I think one cause of runes being so set as "run this page for this champ" mindset is because you cannot change your rune page during queue as you can your masteries. If I'm playing top and my opponent picks a champ i dislike playing against, I can always modify my masteries before the game begins, but my runes I cannot. Thus causing me to have general pages for champs that can benefit them the most under all situations, or perhaps a few situational pages for my main.

If my choices are banned however, I feel as though my rune pages are not as good. In solo queue, I have not had a problem with this yet because I have 20 rune pages, 15 used for 3 junglers, 3 mid, 3 top, 3 support, and 3 adc. the other 5 for my fav champs. Others may not be so lucky as to have many pages in case of picks and bans.

Perhaps giving champions (yes, the champion, as owned or playable) 3 or 5 blank rune pages, choosable by players before games will make for more diverse game play. So my Rammus can have a jungle page, a MR page and an Armor page. My Trynd can have a AS/Crit page, a Crit damage/health page and a Mixed MR/Armor page. Etc. This will allow players to not only set masteries before games up for success but also runes.

----Re-reading this paragraph was a little misleading, so for further explanation: Aatrox, when playable, has 3 rune pages in his pocket. When I play Aatrox I can choose from one of those 3(or 5 or w/e) rune pages I modified before queue, during queue. When I go mid, I pick my Garen, when I get countered I then choose from one of 3(or 5 or w/e) rune pages I designated for Garen during pre-queue.

I believe this will also encourage players to try new champs as they will be modifying the runes for each champ and thus looking up abilities and stats for the champion to best utilize the champion kit.

I realize this was an old post and if needed to be posted somewhere else I can. These are my thoughts on the matter and may have been thought of already. I hope this is of help.

By: Your host with the most, Obechosc

VesarixxDec 3, 20152 votes

I think that would probably over complicate things a bit if both runes and masteries did that, but maybe just having a few options for quints or even adding another rune type that would only have one slot and give a similar effect to the keystones would be cool.

vivjan30Dec 4, 20151 votes

If you made runes like this, is could help newer players.

JudasLoverDec 4, 20151 votes

I just want a keystone for Lissandra. Deathfire is too shitty (early cause of low ratio and mana pool, late cause she has burst and not sustained damage), Thunderlord's is too rare cause she can't poke at all and just goes all in. Llittle will I care for 1.5% bonus dmg when no one is nearby next patch... (which is incredibly low btw).

TL;DR: We need new keystones more than lower tier masteries.