When your support goes tanky instead of support.

Snowman Arc·Feb 25, 2017·1 votes·1,497 views

Like really, why do people do this? It feels like intentional feeding to me. I just had a support Nautilus in my team, who didn't buy a Locket, or a Redemption, or changed to red trinket, or buy Knight's Vow etc. I'm not the guy who just blindly follows the meta builds, but I can see if an item is important or not, and all of the above are very important, potential teamfight winners.

Instead, he bought Sunfire Cape, Spirit Visage, and when I asked him why he hasn't bought a supportive item yet, his reply was "I don't have 10k gold". Shouldn't this behavior be reportable in some sense? It's like picking caitlyn and going full AP, it's not gonna work.

The elo has mid gold, so a locket can actually have a big impact in teamfights, if you could make the argument that maybe tank Nautilus could work in lower elo. I don't know, we had taken first tower gold in bot lane, I was Elise with 8 kills in 15 minutes, game was snowballing hard, but then we started losing teamfights because 1) our team comp wasn't that good for teamfighting and 2) Nautilus was basically useless.

Again, should this be reportable in some sense? Teamfights could be won solely by vision denying through red trinket, and applying Locket. It was THAT EASY.

60 Comments

jaymc1130Feb 25, 201712 votes

Mate, if you guys lost that game when you were that far ahead that fast...

You sure as hell didn't lose it because of anything naut did.

You were the jungler, you were kicking ass and taking names, and then you totally forgot how to macro with a lead and pissed it away by not organizing your team and being a leader and giving them a solid game plan to follow.

Naut had nothing to do with that loss, that was 100% on your macro skills not being up to snuff.

There's also nothing wrong with his build. It's not ideal maybe, but it's not like he played lethality naut.

Snowman ArcFeb 25, 20171 votes

It's not always easy to coordinate a team that doesn't want to be coordinated, let alone when the enemies know at least how to turtle and counter anything we attempt to do. As I said, their team comp was better in terms of waveclear, engage and teamfighting, which is exactly why I did my best to snowball my team and win off of it.

And there are mistakes in his build. Having a Locket and Redemption on at least one champion is pretty much necessary, because of how much power they provide. Not having them while the enemy does puts you in a significant disadvantage.

Oh, and when you're talking macro play, it would help if the Naut could clear out some vision with red trinket + control wards, so I could get some flank engages, but hey, Naut did nothing wrong, eh?

Let alone he would never engage in a fight when he had no other clear way of engaging. Like he could just flash ult and then hook someone instead of waiting for the enemy Malpite to engage on us and Jhin to poke us down.

So many mistakes on his part, I can't see how you can deny that. I guess you were not in the game so you can't realize.

jaymc1130Feb 25, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lGezKFZj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-02-25T11:02:56.233+0000)

It's not always easy to coordinate a team that doesn't want to be coordinated, let alone when the enemies know at least how to turtle and counter anything we attempt to do. As I said, their team comp was better in terms of waveclear, engage and teamfighting, which is exactly why I did my best to snowball my team and win off of it.

And there are mistakes in his build. Having a Locket and Redemption on at least one champion is pretty much necessary, because of how much power they provide. Not having them while the enemy does puts you in a significant disadvantage.

Oh, and when you're talking macro play, it would help if the Naut could clear out some vision with red trinket + control wards, so I could get some flank engages, but hey, Naut did nothing wrong, eh?

Let alone he would never engage in a fight when he had no other clear way of engaging. Like he could just flash ult and then hook someone instead of waiting for the enemy Malpite to engage on us and Jhin to poke us down.

So many mistakes on his part, I can't see how you can deny that. I guess you were not in the game so you can't realize.

It has nothing to do with his mistakes. 100% of players in 100% of games make mistakes. Most often dozens of them, even professionals.

His mistakes have nothing to do with YOUR mistakes. For example: why are you consistently putting your team in position to 5v5 the enemy team when you know they have superior items for a 5v5 teamfight situation? Why are you not coordinating a split effort of some sort? It's not always easy to organize a team effectively, that's why this is the most important skill in the entire game. But you have to at least do YOUR job pretty much flawlessly to even begin to comment on the performance of another and one of the primary functions of the jungler is to be the primary team captain and shot caller. You have the freedom to watch the map in between camps and call out rotations and objectives, the laners have to focus on micro managing in lane. You're the big picture guy and you lost sight of the big picture getting so wrapped up in what naut was doing.

If your naut had that kind of a build why didn't you send him to split? He has waveclear, he's got the build to annihilate the opposing support so they'd have to send a more important champ to stop his push. This would give you the advantage in the 4v4 fight.

It's these kinds of strategic options you refused to even consider because you were so bent out of shape over his build. You flat out forgot to play. That's why you lost. No other reason.

Did the rest of your team contribute to that? Yeah. Does that matter? No. Because you had the option of formulating a strategy to take advantage of your lead and failed to do so. The burden of responsibility to come up with a plan with a high chance of success rests only on you, no one else.

Snowman ArcFeb 26, 20172 votes

Our team didn't have a single member who could splitpush and be able to win the 1v1. Chogath can't really splitpush, neither can Veigar. Nautilus can't splitpush, because he is only ahead in gold over the enemy support. Cassiopeia could easily 1v1 anyone in my team, barring some misplay (like getting CCed and 1shot by Veigar). In any case, splitpushing wasn't viable, and teamfighting was also hard, assuming that my ADC wasn't the best ADC anyway.

Well, people seem to disagree with me about my statements, but then again, why do you not ever see Alistars and Braums build Sunfire Cape over Locket? If anything, being 0/2 but having correct itemization is better than being 2/0 and not utilizing the maximum out of your options.

jaymc1130Feb 26, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lGezKFZj,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-26T07:12:26.051+0000)

being 0/2 but having correct itemization is better than being 2/0 and not utilizing the maximum out of your options.

Im going to only respond to this part because it's the last and only response this thread needs from this point on.

YOU didn't make the best use of your strategic options and your lead in game. You failed to formulate an appropriate strategy based on what was built and how players were faring and decided to force teamfights for the remainder of the game despite having an ideal set up for split effort to win. You failed to capitalize on the dramatically better combat build of your teams nautilus by failing to isolate him 1v1 and gain a combat effectiveness advantage in 4v4 situation that would have furthered your teams snowball.

There is one person and only one person who is 100% responsible for that loss and it's you for losing control of the game as the jungler who had complete control of the map prior to getting triggered by something as silly as some player's build.

Next time use that brain to formulate an optimal strategy based on what you have to work with rather than blame some player for not giving you the exact set up you would have liked to work with. You don't get to choose how other players play, only how you play. If you choose to throw away leads and make poor strategic decisions and force your team into bad situations you are going to lose a lot more games.

chipndip1Feb 25, 20172 votes

Honestly, that's fine and dandy, but if the support didn't build item 3190 item 3107 , there WAS something wrong with their build. There's never a single strategically inopportune time to build a massive aoe shield as a support, and yes, that loses otherwise won games.

jaymc1130Feb 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, that's fine and dandy, but if the support didn't build , there WAS something wrong with their build. There's never a single strategically inopportune time to build a massive aoe shield as a support, and yes, that loses otherwise won games.

Negative. These are only mistakes if the team tries to force a playstyle dependent upon using those items when they in fact do not have them. The build is less than ideal, that does not make it wrong, there is a difference.

There is no question these are some really powerful item tools we are talking about, but the use of them is not an important factor in the context of HOW WELL the team made use of what items they did have.

chipndip1Feb 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Negative. These are only mistakes if the team tries to force a playstyle dependent upon using those items when they in fact do not have them. The build is less than ideal, that does not make it wrong, there is a difference.

Negative. These are mistakes that are easier to exploit if you play in a manner where they can be exploited. With that said, if I notice my team has a Locket and the enemy support is building something stupid like a Sunfire Cape, I'll actively tell my team to group up or 4-1 and twist the HELL out of that knife. It's possible the enemy team played well rather than our OP playing poorly, you know?

There is no question these are some really powerful item tools we are talking about, but the use of them is not an important factor in the context of HOW WELL the team made use of what items they did have.

I mean, that's like giving me a plastic knife vs. a bat. I can be the best knife thrower on EVERY side of Texas and I'd get molly-whopped by a bat if I only have a non-lethal knife to use. Use of your tools is important. Picking the right tools is also important. There's never a time where Locket is the wrong tool in the support role. It's basically free instantaneous health, and there's no way someone can argue that down unless they don't know what support is like.

Lemme reiterate: Yes, using your items WELL is important. I've won games where I shielded 3k health with Locket while someone else shielded like 500 or so. At the same time, correct itemization is ALSO important. I've lost games where I thought I could get away with building items like Athene's/Lich/Mejai's while the enemy support just built Locket/Redemption. My influence was simply not going to get through all that gold value in health value through shielding/healing, and we ended up losing by the time I got my act together and built Locket. Takes both itemization and application, and Naut failed in itemization.

jaymc1130Feb 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Negative. These are mistakes that are easier to exploit if you play in a manner where they can be exploited. With that said, if I notice my team has a Locket and the enemy support is building something stupid like a Sunfire Cape, I'll actively tell my team to group up or 4-1 and twist the HELL out of that knife. It's possible the enemy team played well rather than our OP playing poorly, you know?

Actually, given the game situations as expressed this cannot be true, we know that his team had a very large and significant lead. In the current meta this can only be reversed in one way, the team with the lead misplays. It is not possible in the current meta state to make a come back without the opposing team goofing something terrible, such is the nature of an uber snowball meta.

The fact of the matter is that the opposing team played poorly, but the OPS played even worse after having a huge lead because he was infusing the team with a toxic attitude instead of being a proper leader and teammate.

There are literally no two ways about that, it's just fact.

Not that I don't understand the point you were trying to make, but that point isn't valid given the context of this particular scenario.

I mean, that's like giving me a plastic knife vs. a bat. I can be the best knife thrower on EVERY side of Texas and I'd get molly-whopped by a bat if I only have a non-lethal knife to use. Use of your tools is important. Picking the right tools is also important. There's never a time where Locket is the wrong tool in the support role. It's basically free instantaneous health, and there's no way someone can argue that down unless they don't know what support is like.

If I shred the plastic knife into tiny sharp bits and spread them on the floor then entice the dude with the bat to chase me and he steps on them with his bare feet causing him significant injury and reducing his ability to use the bat on me I have effectively negated his weapon advantage with superior strategy. Further more, because I had control of the situation in the big picture sense before hand and I prepared the area we can see that having a lead allows one to adjust strategy on the fly to suit the situation at hand and wind up with a victorious result.

Lemme reiterate: Yes, using your items WELL is important. I've won games where I shielded 3k health with Locket while someone else shielded like 500 or so. At the same time, correct itemization is ALSO important. I've lost games where I thought I could get away with building items like Athene's/Lich/Mejai's while the enemy support just built Locket/Redemption. My influence was simply not going to get through all that gold value in health value through shielding/healing, and we ended up losing by the time I got my act together and built Locket. Takes both itemization and application, and Naut failed in itemization.

There is no question optimization and ideal builds are more likely to have success, but this is only true in the context of a game following the standard and average path. Not all game do. You can't play the same style of game with a singed on the team as if you had a non singed champion. Attempting to play in a standard style with that as an underlying circumstance makes attempting to play in a standard style the mistake.

Op's team had done FINE (more than fine, huge lead) with a non standard approach for the majority of the beginning of the game. Then the OP tried to force a standard playstyle on a team that was not built or suited for a standard approach. That mistake belongs to only one player and this is the only mistake relevant in why his team lost, it's his job as jungler to make the best use of the resources available and put his team in the best position to succeed. He chose to flame and blame instead and lost because of it and there really aren't two ways about that, it's just fact.

Snowman ArcFeb 26, 20172 votes

Well, I won't deny that my team played poorly. Chogath top was getting 1v1ed by Malphite, my Caitlyn was getting caught out FOR NO REASON, even when there was vision, and they were taking fights with numbers disadvantage when the enemy Malphite was also grouped with the enemy. These are all things that I personally cannot be held accountable for, and there are just so many plays and situations I can create to snowball the game, afterwards, I need a team to back me up and realize what they need to do.

I generally like to lead my team since I consider myself having good knowledge on what to do on the map, optimizing itemization etc. When you play with stangers though, any suggestions sounds like flaming. I kindly asked Nautilus to change to red trinket, he ignored me and 5 minutes later I asked him again and also asked him to build Locket. He rudely replied "do you think I have 10k Gold to spend on items?". Right there I realized that this Nautilus probably doesn't really care about what happens in the game.

Snowman ArcFeb 26, 20171 votes

It's funny that most of the guys that disagree with me are silvers and bronzies, and the only guy that supports me in this thread is a Diamond player. Guess I shouldn't try to argue in these forums lol.

jaymc1130Feb 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lGezKFZj,comment-id=00020001000000000001,timestamp=2017-02-26T07:58:53.091+0000)

It's funny that most of the guys that disagree with me are silvers and bronzies, and the only guy that supports me in this thread is a Diamond player. Guess I shouldn't try to argue in these forums lol.

That would be one of my students. Good buddy, cool dude all the way.

chipndip1Feb 26, 20171 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Snowman ArcFeb 26, 20171 votes

Anything less than ideal IS WRONG in this game. Seeing as people make mistakes, misposition and all the stuff, trying to eliminate all the things that aren't optimal is essential. You can't ask people to have god-like mechanics, but you MUST expect them to build the most optimal way possible, or at least do after being asked to.

An ideal Caitlyn build is to get as much crit as possible while having lifesteal, penetration and some defense, maybe. Anything less than that (like, not going for a crit build) is wrong. It's wrong, because it's less than ideal. It's putting the team in a big disadvantage, because the team expects X amounts of damage from Cait, and, assuming she plays mechanically perfect, she only dishes out half of X, which would probably end up losing a teamfight and the game.

A less than ideal build is WRONG, plain and simple and there is no denying that. Not build a Voidstaff on the mage is less than ideal, because then you can't take down the tanks, therefore it's wrong.

jaymc1130Feb 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lGezKFZj,comment-id=0002000100000001,timestamp=2017-02-26T07:25:01.965+0000)

snip

There is nothing left to discuss in relation to this topic. You have been give all the advice you need to correct your mistake in the future. You have been informed of how and why you were wrong. Whether or not you choose to learn from this is completely up to you.

Snowman ArcFeb 26, 20171 votes

Sorry, but seeing how you are hardstuck in silver for 3 seasons now, I can't take any of your advice seriously, especially when it's generalistic advice like "oh you should have had a better strategy". Oh duh, then tell me what that strategy is, genius, when our team comp is weak to spliupush and Naut's items are weak to teamfight.

jaymc1130Feb 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lGezKFZj,comment-id=000200010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-26T07:57:02.145+0000)

Sorry, but seeing how you are hardstuck in silver for 3 seasons now, I can't take any of your advice seriously, especially when it's generalistic advice like "oh you should have had a better strategy". Oh duh, then tell me what that strategy is, genius, when our team comp is weak to spliupush and Naut's items are weak to teamfight.

Mate, I'm a 4 season diamond and former master tier player:

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Likeamaws https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=oOBestEveNaOo

Post history is filled with screenshots, threads, YouTube vids, streams, etc.

I know you're new around here.

I'm not mate. Ask around.

Jay is just the name people have known me by for 7 seasons, it makes more sense to post on it than anything else when you're this well known.

chipndip1Feb 26, 20172 votes

I think the point of what Jaymc is trying to say (I call him Jaymc, but apparently people call him Jay without the mc. Whatever) is that it's fine to be upset that Naut didn't build Locket since that was a knuckle-headed move, but it's not fine to point most of your aggression at him, since there were most likely (and self-admittedly at this point) a good deal of moves your team made that put you in a position to need a Locket, given you were initially stomping.

Basically, he's drawing a line between being upset and scapegoating.

jaymc1130Feb 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think the point of what Jaymc is trying to say (I call him Jaymc, but apparently people call him Jay without the mc. Whatever) is that it's fine to be upset that Naut didn't build Locket since that was a knuckle-headed move, but it's not fine to point most of your aggression at him, since there were most likely (and self-admittedly at this point) a good deal of moves your team made that put you in a position to need a Locket, given you were initially stomping.

Basically, he's drawing a line between being upset and scapegoating.

This explanation is bae.

Snowman ArcMar 2, 20171 votes

Yes, the thing that makes me think it's so important though is that in order to win the game, you have to eliminate the mistakes you're making, right? I made mistakes, my team made mistakes, the enemies made mistakes. Everyone does. The important thing is try and eliminate as many of them as possible, especially when they are things that can EASILY be handled. For example, it's hard to ask someone to never miss a skillshot, because that someone might not be as mechanically gifted. You can't expect everyone to be smart enough to identify and spot the ideal itemization for any situation, because, well, not everyone is that smart.

The difference between the two though is that you can be TOLD or ASK what to build if you don't know or feel confident on what you should be building. You can't ask how to land an Ahri E, but you can ask what to build on Nautilus, or at least alter your build path after being asked to. That's what infuriates me and led me to creating this thread. I've seen people come and go, feed, curse, troll etc. Never really bothered because I understand all of the above. But not knowing what's best, being told what is best and what should be done and STILL NOT GOING WITH IT just blows my mind. Maybe because I have a thing against people who don't act smart, I don't know.

ThugWalrusFeb 25, 20176 votes

Reporting someone for having a sub-optimal build sounds like a horrible idea....

Also building tank items on a Naut is nowhere near as bad as building AP Cait. Full-tank support Naut is still somewhat gold efficient whereas ap cait is essentially 0% gold efficient.

Snowman ArcFeb 25, 20171 votes

You still don't realize how powerful a Locket or Redemption is, to the point that not having them is putting the team in a severe disadvantage. No one can deny this. So, who's better to build the supportive items, than the support-role champion itself? Nautilus can still work for the reason he was picked, that is being tanky (Locket and Redemption make him tanky) and applying a lot of CC, while also helping the team in so many other ways.

If anything, we had a tanky Chogath in our team, and I was also sligthly tanky as Elise, having build Abyssal + Liandrys + GA.

Also, what would you say to a Caitlyn who only builds 5 Infinity Edges? Would you be ok with that build? It wouldn't, even though it's viable and goes along with her role in the game which is to have strong AAs. Even so, the build is trash and a teamfight can be lost simply because of the lack of damage from that Caitlyn. Sure, in some cases you can compare the wrong itemization to something like not being good in lane mechanics or teamfighting mechanics, but it feels that itemization seems so much easier to do, that doing it wrong in such a big way, ESPECIALLY IF REPEATEDLY TOLD SO, should at least bring on some punishment.

LauchmelderFeb 25, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lGezKFZj,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-25T11:09:14.550+0000)

You still don't realize how powerful a Locket or Redemption is, to the point that not having them is putting the team in a severe disadvantage.

I lol'd.

ErockandrollFeb 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Reporting someone for having a sub-optimal build sounds like a horrible idea....

Also building tank items on a Naut is nowhere near as bad as building AP Cait. Full-tank support Naut is still somewhat gold efficient whereas ap cait is essentially 0% gold efficient.

The real problem is, the Tanky support items, really arn't geared towards a Vanguard. (Knights vow is something that I think better fits wardens like Taric or Braum)

Also, if the Naut pick was done so you would have a tank. (Because someone thought Riven Top and Kha'zix Jungle was the makings of a good comp) If you are forced to be the teams tank, even if you don't have the gold to do so, you have to build greedy.

JyoeruFeb 25, 20176 votes

Nah. If they are building into their character's strengths, I don't see the problem. It may be the case they would have fared better with X supp item, but then not all supps will benefit the same, and not all supps are meta, and this thinking would pave the way for demanding people play only certain champs with certain builds with certain items. I don't think you'd like to be micromanaged as such.

chipndip1Feb 25, 20172 votes

Support as a role and its itemization, for better or worse (I say worse), isn't about the class's strengths when itemizing. It's about the role. There's no need to waste more gold for a bit more health and armor when you can spend less gold building hundreds, if not thousands, of health's worth of sustain for your whole team, given you're not meant to roll on much gold to begin with.

JyoeruMar 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Support as a role and its itemization, for better or worse (I say worse), isn't about the class's strengths when itemizing. It's about the role. There's no need to waste more gold for a bit more health and armor when you can spend less gold building hundreds, if not thousands, of health's worth of sustain for your whole team, given you're not meant to roll on much gold to begin with.

I get where people come from saying this. I get the general idea in the design concept. But to say that it's far more important for all supps to universally (a) pick a dedicated supp from a pool of like 15 champs/160 (which is definitely in your point as an implied aside); (b) pick the same six items with limited variation because "supp meta" really turns the role into something that needs to be reworked if this is what was intended by design and expected by other players.

If a tankier Braum or a healier Sona or a more lethal/survivable Zyra aren't important to you, then you must play games where people always target ADC first, and then Mid, and then Supp/jg, and then tanks. Or something like that.

I'll bite if we're talking high ELO. But in lower ELO where the rest of your team is super unreliable or likely to feed outside your lane, you have to play to carry. You aren't going to carry as pure utility Nautilus. Or Sona. Or Zyra. Or any of that stuff.

chipndip1Mar 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I get where people come from saying this. I get the general idea in the design concept. But to say that it's far more important for all supps to universally (a) pick a dedicated supp from a pool of like 15 champs/160 (which is definitely in your point as an implied aside); (b) pick the same six items with limited variation because "supp meta" really turns the role into something that needs to be reworked if this is what was intended by design and expected by other players.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder689/400x/63241689.jpg

JyoeruMar 1, 20171 votes

"There's no need to waste more gold for a bit more health and armor when you can spend less gold building hundreds, if not thousands, of health's worth of sustain for your whole team, given you're not meant to roll on much gold to begin with."

Is not the same as

"into something that needs to be reworked if this is what was intended by design and expected by other players."

Love the meme though.

And supp items are not cheap. We still have to build core items like you guys, but we have to stop along the way and build expensive vision (and in many cases, lots of control wards since they get knocked out all the time). And THEN we can build--oh wait--no we have to build several "meta" items, and then we can build some of the expensive items, IF we make it to late game and haven't been knocked out before then.

chipndip1Mar 1, 20171 votes

That's EXACTLY the same thing. If I lose a team fight and my support didn't have a Locket, while the enemy support did, because they full built ANYTHING ELSE (other than Redemption), that person fucked up before the fight even started. Plain and simple. The items define the role more than the champ picks at this point, and yes, the player base wants and expects people to play into these items and this play style. Just look on the boards. Mage supports aren't even considered supports because they don't build and play like this.

Outside of that, yes, Locket/Redemption ARE your core items, and those are cheap. Expensive items are what aren't your core items.

Lastly, I'm a support main. Who's "you guys"?

JyoeruMar 1, 20171 votes

I guess I am misunderstanding you. Your sentiments support the role as stated it should be played by many people in the community. I'm saying the role is beyond just a utility item stat hog; that if you play into your strengths, that's fine, too. MAYBE NOT AS EFFECTIVE, but still fine. But can ALSO BE JUST AS EFFECTIVE, and in some cases, more effective.

If you want to play X traditional support and load them up with all the generic support items at the cost of being a more effective champ, cool. Also, they changed redemption so that it wasn't the rush/mandatory item for all supports. Correct me if I am wrong, but a locket/redemption on a heal-build sona is going to be different than on a Blitz, isn't it?

chipndip1Mar 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I guess I am misunderstanding you. Your sentiments support the role as stated it should be played by many people in the community. I'm saying the role is beyond just a utility item stat hog; that if you play into your strengths, that's fine, too. MAYBE NOT AS EFFECTIVE, but still fine. But can ALSO BE JUST AS EFFECTIVE, and in some cases, more effective.

It's never more effective to build support with selfish items than it is to build Locket/Redemption, period, since Locket/Redemption outscale what any support is capable of doing anyway.
It isn't bannable to build whatever way you want. It IS fine to build any other anything else...but don't cost your team because it's more fun to build X over your role essentials.

If you want to play X traditional support and load them up with all the generic support items at the cost of being a more effective champ, cool. Also, they changed redemption so that it wasn't the rush/mandatory item for all supports. Correct me if I am wrong, but a locket/redemption on a heal-build sona is going to be different than on a Blitz, isn't it?

No in the sense that they're both going to need to rush those actives anyway, but yes in the sense that Sona has a sustain button and Blitz doesn't. And even with the nerfs to Redemption, I still see almost everyone that knows what they're doing rushing Redemption, so what good did that do? Only way Redemption won't be a mandatory rush is if they messed with the active to the point where it was useless or made a new active for it that wasn't so blatantly powerful.

jaymc1130Mar 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder689/400x/63241689.jpg

+1.

Tired of riot enforcing a stale, bland, toxic gamestate.

LexyyFeb 25, 20176 votes

Supports are not here to serve your sorry ass. Or get the build you want them to.

No it should not be reportable. Ps. You as a jungler should also get red trinket.

Snowman ArcFeb 26, 20171 votes

The support role supposedly exists because they SUPPORT the team in some way. Right now, the most effective way to do that one ANY CHAMPION is to build the supportive items stated above, because they are so STRONG for the PRICE they go for.

If you think that supports should not do their job, which is to support, then I guess as a jungler, I shouldn't really try to help the lanes or place vision, or as a mid laner, I shouldn't try to win my lane and also roam and help lanes.

Pandemic PunchFeb 26, 20172 votes

Velkoz Zyra Malzahar Veigar MissFortune

Snowman ArcFeb 26, 20171 votes

Even in these cases, someone has to build a sightstone to provide vision and someone needs to get a Locket and Redemption. They are so strong and important items, that not getting them puts the team in a handicap. Someone HAS TO get them. I've seen some of the supports you mentioned build these items because they are that strong.

Pandemic PunchFeb 26, 20171 votes

Look at Pro builds and Champion.gg

Spoiler: They build full damage after sightstone item.

LexyyFeb 26, 20172 votes

You never said Nautilus didn't buy Sightstone, so I'm assuming he did. Imo, SIghtstone is mandatory for support, but redemption or locket are situational.

Tanks are helpful to the team, so you can't say he didn't help your team.

I personally don't take redemption every time I'm support. It got nerfed pretty bad, and it used to be a lot stronger. Locket only if there is a fed enemy mage who doesn't have a single target spell.

Pandemic PunchFeb 27, 20171 votes

I strongly agree with, "situational". Especially if we are talking about Platinum and under. I have purchased Locket too many times where I have regretted it. Nothing you can do with Locket when teammates never fight coordinated. You are just left with weaker stats than what you could have had.

RedesignatedFeb 25, 20175 votes

Like really, why do people do this?

Because trying to force a mandatory Redemption > Locket rush is the most fucking boring thing ever in a role that already suffers from low player interest? And if you have the gold and the lead, you can potentially get more out of going for non-support items, especially as a tank?

I'm not the guy who just blindly follows the meta builds,

Could have fooled me.

The elo has mid gold, so a locket can actually have a big impact in teamfights, if you could make the argument that maybe tank Nautilus could work in lower elo.

Wait, hold on, are you trying to imply that full-tank Nautilus only works in high tiers of play?

I don't know, we had taken first tower gold in bot lane, I was Elise with 8 kills in 15 minutes, game was snowballing hard, but then we started losing teamfights because 1) our team comp wasn't that good for teamfighting and 2) Nautilus was basically useless.

You had a huge lead. Not just you, but your entire team. Nautilus going full tank had zero to do with your loss — in fact, that he had enough income to go so heavy into tank could have been a benefit, if you'd actually utilized the fact that you had a big-ass tank on your team instead of criticizing him for building to be such.

Literally your only point at all is about him not switching to a red trinket, and even then, you could always get one yourself. Seeing as Elise already really thrives on denying vision and surprising people.

Snowman ArcFeb 26, 20172 votes

So, you'd prefer your tank Nautilus get a Sunfire Cape over a Locket?

chipndip1Feb 25, 20173 votes

I find it laughable that people are actually putting the OP down for this. Redemption/Locket are pretty much 50% of the support role in their current state. The second you don't build them as your first items, and the other guy did, you've given the enemy a very clear win condition for no reason other than "I could get some HP/Defense on this item! :D :D :D :D".

OP, you can't report the Nautilus, but yeah, he was stupid. I'd be pissed too if I lost a game and realized my support didn't have these items.

ShonjlFeb 25, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I find it laughable that people are actually putting the OP down for this. Redemption/Locket are pretty much 50% of the support role in their current state. The second you don't build them as your first items, and the other guy did, you've given the enemy a very clear win condition for no reason other than "I could get some HP/Defense on this item! :D :D :D :D".

OP, you can't report the Nautilus, but yeah, he was stupid. I'd be pissed too if I lost a game and realized my support didn't have these items.

What is laughable is you right now. While not building those wasn't great. Full tank Naut isn't bad in the slightest either.

What is more laughable is how OP and you think Naut caused them to lose. He didn't. Their team being stupid when having a lead was the cause. It falls even more on the OP being jungler since they had a massive lead and should kept pushing it. If you are shitting on your enemy so hard, you should be constantly ganking still and pushing towers down. If they went full turtle, you just outnumber then, its not like they could have 5 people at all towers. Tower dive them and move on, you are Elise for crying out loud, diving is the easiest out of all junglers for Elise.

chipndip1Feb 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

What is laughable is you right now. While not building those wasn't great. Full tank Naut isn't bad in the slightest either.

"I agree that these items are overpowered and basically necessary to play support optimally, but I'm going to disagree with results because I'm used to the fedora-tipping life style".

What is more laughable is how OP and you think Naut caused them to lose. He didn't. Their team being stupid when having a lead was the cause. It falls even more on the OP being jungler since they had a massive lead and should kept pushing it. If you are shitting on your enemy so hard, you should be constantly ganking still and pushing towers down. If they went full turtle, you just outnumber then, its not like they could have 5 people at all towers. Tower dive them and move on, you are Elise for crying out loud, diving is the easiest out of all junglers for Elise.

"The person I'm replying to didn't say 'Naut caused you to lose', but rather said 'I'd be upset if my support didn't build those two items, and yeah, he was dumb for not doing that'. OBVIOUSLY this means that he's blaming the entire match on Nautilus alone. Here's me making a post about it so I can fish some upvotes".

"Oh, I also think Elise is a good champion right now. Just a side note."

jaymc1130Feb 25, 20174 votes

{quoted}

"I agree that these items are overpowered and basically necessary to play support optimally, but I'm going to disagree with results because I'm used to the fedora-tipping life style".

"The person I'm replying to didn't say 'Naut caused you to lose', but rather said 'I'd be upset if my support didn't build those two items, and yeah, he was dumb for not doing that'. OBVIOUSLY this means that he's blaming the entire match on Nautilus alone. Here's me making a post about it so I can fish some upvotes".

"Oh, I also think Elise is a good champion right now. Just a side note.Is

The OP of the thread is calling for bans of players who don't play in his preferred style. There really isn't anything more rude and selfish to demand as a player, it's absolutely abysmal attitude.

chipndip1Feb 25, 20171 votes

I agree that the guy can't get banned for poor play, and asking if it's bannable is poor attitude. I told the op myself in my post "No, you can't be banned for bad builds/play". Still, I'm not gonna be in a match pretending like I don't have a 10 pound weight on my back when I do. Was Naut a 10 pound weight? Idk, because I can't find the match in his history, but not building Locket was a huge detriment his team didn't have to deal with. That's what Naut did wrong, and it's fine to be a bit riled by these types of things. It's human.

jaymc1130Feb 25, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I agree that the guy can't get banned for poor play, and asking if it's bannable is poor attitude. I told the op myself in my post "No, you can't be banned for bad builds/play". Still, I'm not gonna be in a match pretending like I don't have a 10 pound weight on my back when I do. Was Naut a 10 pound weight? Idk, because I can't find the match in his history, but not building Locket was a huge detriment his team didn't have to deal with. That's what Naut did wrong, and it's fine to be a bit riled by these types of things. It's human.

It's fine to question it, its fine to criticize.

I draw a line at demanding bans for players who play "off meta".

chipndip1Feb 25, 20171 votes

Definitely. You can't be banned for it, and the context of the thread is what I don't like about the thread. Naut may have goofed, but it's not a reportable goof.

Eh, we're usually around the same ballpark on these things.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]