Back then nidalee kept chucking spears from high range that deal up to 2/3 of your hp. If you managed to get on top of her, she dies as she had no cc. Now zoe does the same thing except with more damage. She managed to one shot an ezreal with just her q from full hp. If you try to jump her, she just easily lands a point blank e that sleeps you for 2 seconds.
Dope Solo37 votesGood luck getting riot to admit they're wrong.
hotarse6 votesGood luck getting riot to admit they're wrong.
Well, Riot game did admit to going overboard on the Sona nerfs. Then gave her a small reduced mana cost on Q. Good luck getting Certainlyt to admit his champs very well have ruined countless experiences in league of legends.
Tokogawaruf3 votes"But they are fun to play"
Good thing the Opinion of every of the Enemies is invalid
RookPusher15 votesI insta-ban Zoe. Whether she's OP or not is another conversation. She's so boring to play against. I feel like there's little to no outplay option. It's either off-screen chunking, or the team pounces and smashes her.
I don't remember banning a champ in the past because I despised them.
Dead flag blues12 votesOld Nidalee could heal herself and had a dash who was ressourceless with a ridiculous CD, and also had an insane amount of dps in her cougar form, so going melee wouldn't make her instantly die, let's not forget about her heal who could regen 75% of her hp. Zoe has no mobility, only has one dps spell, only has one CC spell. If you manage to reach her, she's dead.
Stop crying if you can't play against a champion, you'll probably say something like "shut up ur bronze im gold 2 im stornk xdddddddddddddddd" but at least I know how to play her and how to play against her.
Merlinez24 votes[{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lFO1lxWA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-30T14:44:12.391+0000)
Old Nidalee could heal herself and had a dash who was ressourceless with a ridiculous CD, and also had an insane amount of dps in her cougar form, so going melee wouldn't make her instantly die, let's not forget about her heal who could regen 75% of her hp. Zoe has no mobility, only has one dps spell, only has one CC spell. If you manage to reach her, she's dead.
Stop crying if you can't play against a champion, you'll probably say something like "shut up ur bronze im gold 2 im stornk xdddddddddddddddd" but at least I know how to play her and how to play against her.
shut up ur bronze im gold 2 im stornk xdddddddddddddddd
Lucas Fehrwight34 votesNid could not one shot. Nid spears were a lot slower. Nid spears actually had a cooldown. Nid also have unsafe wave clear. Nid had no cc. If I remember correctly, nid was not even banned that much in solo q when she could do these things.
Zoe doesn't need mobility, she can do everything from far away. And even then, its very easy to ap champs to get free mobility from runes. Zoe may have one DPS skill but its does EVERYTHING. Also, she does more damage with that one skill that some champs do with 3. Zoe may have one CC spell, buts its fudgin broken. Its has insane range. It last a long time. Its fast. Similarly, if the reach the money in bank, you can take it. Doesn't make it any easier to steal and any easier to get away.
Stop trying to justify a broken champ. All the signs are there. She perma banned in solo q and sometimes banned in pro play. She complained on the boards, pros, casters, and many more. She dominates normal games and pro games alike. Just saw a pro game of her one shotting an ezreal...who had mr. I can't say that any champ has ever been able to do that with one spell in the history of this game.
If someone wants to complain by one of the most sickening champs to every hit league, then fudging let them.
Crystalysk20 votesNidalee's spear didn't have that big CD, she just had to spam them until she eventually ran out of mana. And while it was really toxic at least her spear had a real mana cost (couldn't siege for a long time unless blue buff or tear). Meanwhile Zoe can spam it all day, but i think it's more due to the fact now we have manaflow band and morello (note that i know morello was a thing already but it wasn't strong like it is right now).
KennysDreamGirl3 votes"Just saw a pro game of her one shotting an ezreal...who had mr" please dont be talking about this clip
Votable Jester2 votesHe is. Surprise surprise a 4/0/4 Zoe with all 3 mpen items, Rabadon's, and Morello is able to one-shot the 2 level lower Ezreal with only a QSS for defense.
NineTailedMystic3 votesLegitimately one shotting someone with any one spell is not ok. Especially when he at least had one MR item. Remember the Cho Gath one shot outrage?
the weeaboo1 votesChogath is not a burst mage
NineTailedMystic1 votesOk? No class should have a spell that one shots.
Votable Jester1 votesIt isn't one spell, she used 2 right there. For 1-2 shots, there's 
.
NineTailedMystic2 votesShe damaged them with one spell. Yes she used her R to extend the range, but one damaging spell did enough damage to one shot him.
Velkoz and Xerath don't 1 to 2 shot ever, Veigar needs a long while to scale until he can one shot, Lux never one shot, Fizz hasn't one shot to my knowledge (maybe right after Assassin rework with his R), and guess what champion people complained about when being one shot? Syndra.
Votable Jester1 votesWell Vel'koz I was counting his ult into it, which can very easily mean a 2-shot. Xerath can also 2-shot, I've done it plenty of times.
Veigar takes a while to 1-shot, but not to 2-shot. Lux can also 2-shot with QR. Fizz at least used to be able to 2-shot with RE, idk about that anymore.
Syndra is still able to 1-shot, or at least 2-shot.
It's just that visually it is like Zoe only used 1 ability, but that would be like saying Karma's Q does too much damage when you were really hit by RQ.
Arakadia2 votesWhat mobility can AP champs get from runes? There's a couple mostly situational movement buffs but those would suck on Zoe.
Riverwalker is good for objective control and celerity (the mini hecarim rune) is only good on champions like Hecarim.
Evil Bisex Plant3 votesAnd even then, its very easy to ap champs to get free mobility from runes.
Wait, what? Where is the dash rune? I'm interested, I'd take it every game. Lmao.
SwiftKitten886 votesand this is news to anyone how? [slayer-jinx-unamused] i played old nidalee as nidalee has been my main since day one.. and day in was in season 3... and her rework was in season 4.
lets do a quick comparison (also keeping in mind at 
was a laner until mid season 5)
Nid's Q goes in a stright line FROM her... no weird ass freaky angles.. you keep trask of her and the spear cant come from anywhere but her as long as somthing is in front of you.. you're good
zoe projectile can change trajectory she can cast it sideways to go around minions.
spear is single target..
Q has a small aoe...
has a hard cc.... and outside of 
ulti, the best hard cc in the game.
nidalee has a heal... ok cool she can keep her life up if she has mana... which she wont have if she is throwing spears and missing them
nidalee has pounce.. ACTUALLY she donest until lvl 6, seeing as we are talking pre-rework nidalee. so nidalee didnt have any easier time doding anything until then either at which time zoe also has her dodge skill.
zoe has a RNG auto-win lane mechanic becuase of her W.
nidalee W placed a visible trap that cut armor and magic resist by a %, which could be proced by minions (so u cant block off a turrent like 
traps can becuase they would proc on the minions), so unless then enemy choose to walk on it.. it didn't help.. in lane it was more used for spotting ganks.
nidalee was rework becuase her hit was deemed "toxic" to face. becuase she never really used kitty form as there was no need.. so she sat back at max range and threw spears at you while building 
(her new kit is also INSANELY more fun, and has very clear counterplay)
zoe is EVERYTHING bad about old nidalee on steroids..
its like they went and took old nidalee and were like.. "ok.. this was toxic... but how could we make it WORSE??"
Zenthon Prime4 votesIt is fair to say that old Nid was considerably safer than Zoe. At at the very least, it took less skill to play safe as old Nid than it does with Zoe. Both get escape tools at Lvl6 (Zoe ult back + E, Nid pounce) but Nid's is easier to use and probably more effective. Nid also got sustain, and while it was taxing on your mana Zoe's got jack in that regard. Plus Zoe has to be within 800 range to use her Q, if only briefly.
But outside of safety you're right. The old nukespear and Zoe Q do comparable damage (spear had ~150 higher base damage, Zoe Q has +2.5% higher scaling) but once you throw in Zoe E she surpasses the spear easily. Cooldown on both Qs is similar as well. Old Nid also had no waveclear, whereas Zoe has solidly mid-tier waveclear. Don't even start me on her W.
I'm honestly baffled this champion made it past concepting. At this rate they're gonna announce a champion with 85% death timer reduction, old Rek ult and a 2.0 AP suicide move.
General Esdeath 5 votesUnfortunately she has the strongest defense, the CertainlyT shield, which prevents ALL balance changes/reworks to fix their problematic kit.
Unless you're 
of course.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesHer problems have never been fixed either. Balance team just dumpstered her until they could figure out what to do the Gordian knot that is her counter-play.
General Esdeath 1 votesShe has a lot of counterplay, it's just that she's too good in LCS because of her W and R. If anything needed a nerf it was W damage, not her range.
Ariel the Cruel5 votesKalista's problems:
Passive makes landing skill shots unreasonably difficult. And melees basically useless. (Ignoring a still existing bug where she can sometimes ignore immobilization.) Damage is back-loaded such that players never know if they're actually winning a trade with her. Also, she can potentially out-smite smite.
Range wasn't her problem; agreed. But solving her actual problems is beyond the scope of the balance team.
the weeaboo1 votesYasuo and Darius are straight trash right now, the hell are you talking about?
General Esdeath 1 votesDo you know what "problematic kit" means?
The Yetii Rider4 votesThis is how burst mages should function. Zoe is an effective burst mage for the modern game. She feels comparatively strong because Riot hasnt made a burst mage since Syndra, and the nature of Syndra's kit leaves her very vulnerable to becoming bugged. The more things you need to interact with, the worse off a single bug will leave you.
SarcasticShepard3 votesBut Syndra actually has to get balls laid out before being able to nuke some poor sap.
FutureCreator3 votesAt least syndra can't instakill you from half a lane away, with one skill.
SwiftCrane2 votesAt least syndra can't instakill you from half a lane away, with one skill.
with a 3 second practically 0 mana cost ability no less
The Yetii Rider4 votesIf Zoe manages to actually one shot you with just her Q, it's because she's ridiculously ahead and you aren't itemizing against her.
More than likely, what actually happens is Zoe either hits you with her sleep trap, which increases her damage and is much easier to dodge than her Q, so you had more of a chance to get away than you think, or she Q'd and then ulted to extend her range. In either case, she is not deleting you with "one skill".
Zoe, as a true burst mage, should be pushing other less bursty mages to itemize properly. Mages have never been forced to build correctly, they've always gotten away with building as glass cannons because they all had relatively the same power level, range, and patterns as one another.
If you're playing a champion like Lux, Ziggs, Viktor, anyone who isn't Veigar or Syndra, basically, you have more damage than Zoe in the long run, so you should be building to take advantage of that. And that involves, GASP! NOT building AP on every single item. I know, it's amazing, but as it turns out, your cooldowns and your base damage are generally enough, and having all the ratios in the world doesn't help your team if you die instantly.
Zoe can kill you in the first two seconds. Okay. But after those first two seconds, she's relatively weak. Okay. So then what you should be doing is building to survive the first two seconds and then out rotating her for the rest of the fight. That involves items like 
, 
,
or 
. Because, you will not win a fight against Zoe if you build glass cannon against her glass cannon.
Stack some health. Forgo some AP. Make some fucking trade offs in your build like everyone else does, and voila, suddenly her burst is less relevant than your DPS.
Ariel the Cruel3 votes 6.25 base cooldown on paddle rank 5. 14 base on Bubble.
11 on Q, 10 on E.
Q: 4, E: 9
Q: 4, E: 16
She's actually not that far off from the average. Her damage is also comparable if not higher. Zoe's biggest trade-off is consistency, not down-time. Your examples can spam AoE. Zoe can only spam a narrow ICBM.
NineTailedMystic2 votesNo it isn't. Zoe has 4 damaging abilities (PQWE), yet she has so much damage loaded into Q and E (especially Q), that she doesn't even need her P and W beyond a certain point.
And Zoe's problem isn't that she's bursts or is a burst Mage, it's that her burst pattern and completely obnoxious, and she has special rules about her abilities that don't apply to similar abilities.
The Yetii Rider1 votesFirst of all, your FEK is super aggravating. The avatar is so large it covers up the Reply button. I had to log in with my phone where there is no FEK just to have the option to reply to you.
Secondly, screw "obnoxious". Dying quickly will always be frustrating, there's no way of mitigating that. People get annoyed at pre rework Annie, at Veigar, at Syndra, at asssassins in general. Burst is good for the game. The player being bursted doesn't need to have a good experience as he is bursted.
NineTailedMystic1 votesThat's just a bug with FEK. I've had it happen with other people too. I just use tab until I highlight the reply button.
Again, "dying quickly" isn't the issue, it's how she kills quickly that is the issue.
The Yetii Rider1 votesWhat aspect of how she kills is a problem? She has a hard CC effect that has a delay on how it activates. If she accidentally autos first, has a passive bolt pop the bubble or has one of her teammates interrupt her, her combo loses a lot of damage. If none of that happens, she gets to use her Q to kill someone, usually with the help of her ultimate which requires some timing and also reduces her slipperiness. I don't see why that's a problem.
NineTailedMystic1 votesHrm, it's harder to articulate than I thought. But I suppose the easiest way would be to say how she fishes for sleeps with a medium to long range skill shot. If that doesn't work, she still gets a trap out of it. If the trap doesn't work, she can still easily win a trade just by hitting a strong Q. And that strong Q can escalate into 80%+ HP without her Sleep. And that's not even counting her two other damage spells.
Now compare this to other Burst Mages like Ahri, Lux, Syndra, or Brand. Evading one of their skill shots is a huge swing in your favor, but it doesn't feel like you're beating Zoe because you dodge her shit.
if none of that happens, she gets to use her Q to kill someone, usually with the help of her ultimate which requires some timing and also reduces her slipperiness. I don't see why that's a problem.
Why does Zoe get to kill someone when "none of that happens"? Why does she get so many fallback plans?
The Yetii Rider1 votesBecause the job of a mage is to kill multiple people, that's what makes them different from assassins. Mages get to kill multiple enemies from range. Assassins have to get close to kill one person, with notable exceptions like Talon and Katarina but that's part of the power cost of their kit.
Zoe getting to kill one person is really weak. She doesn't get to lay a giant cage like Veigar, she doesn't get to set up a stunning minefield like Syndra. Her AOE is actually much weaker than the AOE of other burst mages.
And as for comparing it to other burst mages, yeah, they're all outdated. Just because Zoe actually works and most of the other burst mages don't doesn't mean we should hate on Zoe.
KennysDreamGirl3 votesi would assume youre talking about that clip from an lck game. let me just put this here since you just so happen to forget that she was fed, with alot of farm. 3 mpen items and a deathcap. hits the squishiest target from max range. it is perfectly fine for her q to one shot with these items
FutureCreator5 votesIt is most definitely not fine, especially considering she missed her E and Ezreal had MR from his quicksliver sash
KennysDreamGirl2 votesqss does not give enough mr to protect him compared to how big zoe was. with that build and at lvl 18 like the clip she has 543 ap, 591 with that rune that gives ad or ap through out the game(since the time was 38 minutes that bonus was 48 extra ap) with blue pot its 641 ap(i could be off). qss only gives 30mr which is nowher near enough to protect from a max range q with her items. sp yeaj, it is perfectly fine. remember, she had 3 pen items along with potentially 641 ap, ez would've needed ALOT more mr to not get one shot from a max range q.
HaIlMonitor3 votesOutside of Sydra R maybe? What other skills can do that though? And no I am not talking a fuill combo from Zed, Kha, Kat, or more. But legit one skill can just blow someone up on a basic ability with a ?
6.25 second cd with no CDR (3.75 @40%)
KennysDreamGirl1 votessyndras ulti is the only othr spell i think tht can one shot on its own. maybe if youre a fed mordkaiser and you hit someone with the third proc of his q(i think that's the spell) maybe that would count too
HaIlMonitor2 votesThat is the point. Zoe can do it on a really fast cooldown if she gets to the point she was and that should never be allowed. Kha can "oneshot" people with a full combo and people talk he is op, and a champ that can legit just Q someone does it and some People still defender her lol.
KennysDreamGirl1 votesWhat full combo? Kha just has to q you isolated
HaIlMonitor2 votesHe does WEQ with an auto.... If he one shots you legit with just Q he has to be like 2 or 3 items up.
NineTailedMystic1 votesOne shotting with any single ability is not fine regardless of any situation, barring extreme circumstances such as level 18 vs level 1.
KennysDreamGirl1 votesbeing that this zoe (talking about the lck clip) had potentially 641 ap with three pen items, hit a max range q on an ezreal that had 70 ish mr(qss only gives 30) it was perfectly fine for it to one shot. the only way zoe can one shot is if she hits e q or max q, you cant just hit someone with a point blank q and it one shot
stealthfox941 votesI must be missing something. I really don't get the Zoe QQ.
Ariel the Cruel5 votesInsta-gibs people if she lands 2 skill shots from fog of war. Sometimes 1 skill shot for squishies. Bubble CC is inconsistent with other similar skills with regards to cleanse/QSS. RNG spells.
You should be able to circle jerk figure it our from there.
