Can we stop demonizing Riot developers who think outside the box?

slippykitten··104 votes·9,573 views

I'm not going to say Rioters like CertainlyT haven't made a few mistakes, but we all make mistakes at our jobs, especially when we try to move forward and do new things.

Things get stale when they stay the same, this is just fact. Certain Rioters seem to try to implement out of the box champions, playstyles, and mechanics that can only improve the game in the long run.

When, in the effort to make a more fun game, a bad mechanic or poorly designed champion makes it into play and you demonize Riot for it, you create a polarizing scenario that puts Riot on the defensive where they have to justify themselves and stand by their team.

Can you imagine working somewhere where if you did something a bunch of whiny children didnt like your boss would throw you under the bus and wouldnt be able to feed your family? Come on people, get real.

Have rational discussions about the game and understand that probably most of the development team is trying to put things into the game that are fun. Maybe if we can have friendly discussions, we can actually get Riot to take our opinions to heart and make changes accordingly.

You want Cass reverted? You won't get that asking for CertainlyT to be fired. You think Mordes changes were a complete failure and he isn't fun? Stop attacking them and making them feel like they need to defend themselves. We all want the same thing here.

**Edit: For you guys that aren't adults yet, I'll explain why you need to tone it down.

I wasn't defending the design of anything, but rather the designers. These are people trying to make a living designing fun things for you to play FOR FREE. Be decent. If a pimply teenager came to my work, cursed me out for every mistake i made, and asked for me to get fired when they didn't like something I did, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be inclined to listen to their opinions. **

Edit 2: Let me say it as plainly as i can, I agree that some design and balance choices are horrendous. I just made an entire post a couple of days ago about why I think Riots design principles are flawed and problematic. But that doesn't give me the right to throw the rules of decent human interaction out the window and become a rage monkey. It just isn't right.

On a side note, since CertainlyT has been the topic of discussion, his champions are not the most op, problematic champions in the game. They are also some of the most fun champions to play, with mechanics that push the boundaries of what league can do. Are they overloaded? Oh hell yeah. Do I think both Riot and CertainlyT know that? definitely. They are trying to push the game further and advance it. I disagree with how they are doing that too, but i can respect them as human beings while i argue my point.

120 Comments

RiotCertainlyT51 votes

Hey,

A couple of points:

  1. This game is free to play, yes, but you should demand as much from us as you would from any developer. Our goal is to make the best game we are capable of, period. When you don't think we are, tell us.
  2. We have thick skins. I'll give my personal reasons for this so as to not speak for other Rioters: a) I know I have a lot of growth to do as a designer. I understand why a player would be upset with some of the decisions I've made. b) My job is to give players extremely hard problems to solve. Sometimes those problems will leave them frustrated. If everyone thought I was a good designer, I'd be worried. c) A player's opinion of me has no effect on my obligation to them. I still owe that person the best in-game experience possible and so will read their feedback to understand what has them so riled. I am admittedly less likely to reply, but that is more because it is hard to have a dialogue when emotions are high than because I don't feel they deserve an answer.
Decrit24 votes

... when you started your carreer, you choose hard mode right?

SeductiveGrandpa9 votes

Damn, he didnt choose hard mode, HE CHOSE: http://thecontrolleronline.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Dark-Souls-Prepare-to-Die-Edition.jpg

(Just to ensure people dont take this the wrong way, its a joke.)

Dextix LT5 votes

If you understand, why dont you act on it? Your champions are getting worse and worse in terms of game balance. Riots balance team doesnt even know how to balance kalista out because of the broken kit you gave to her.

Learn from all the champions you made, because for now you dont.

Your job isnt to give us problems to solve. Your job is to give champions that are fun to play with and against. Right now you give us champions that are fun to play with but hell to play against.

You are a good designer, for games like Dota 2. Not for games like LOL.

And last but not least. Feedback. We know you read it. Our problem is that you dont do anything about it. Our problem is that in every thread you are you talk about yourself, about your vision, about your thought and you try to prove how everyone else is wrong and your opinion is the best.

That is the problem.

While you indeed started to be more active on forums, it is not enough. You have to listen to our feedback, you have to create fun but BALANCED champions.

Is that so much to ask? Considering people like Repertoir did that the moment they came into the forums (i never heard of this guy before) and you cant do it for years, i dont think its too much to ask.

Malzahard Mode7 votes

Comparing Repertoir to CertainlyT isn't a fair comparison to either one of them. As you stated CertainlyT has been around a lot longer, so he has much more experience in the field. Not only that but Repertoir's first rework was a rather "safe" one; it didn't change anything to role or identity, just added in some more power and uniqueness to the champion.

CertainlyT pushes the envelope when he does he champions and reworks; he wants you to look at the list of every champion he has created/worked on say "Wow, all of these have something special and gives you a reason to pick them over another champion."

And IT IS HIS JOB to give players problems to solve, why? Because that's what creates an interactive community. if Riot made everything "perfect" and just left everything alone once it was released, the game would be more unbalanced than Sona in 2014 URF. Riot can't balance every champion against the other 125 champions in the game, the process would take far too long, and honestly is probably impossible, each nerf or buff to one match-up, is a nerf or buff to another match up. Barring RIOT deciding to never add anything new ever again, there will never be a time when every champion is equally as viable as any other, because anything new changes the entire complexion of the game, even if you don't see it on the surface. Has everything he's put out been perfect? No. Has everything he's put out been bad? Hell no.

While his champions have had a tendency to be overpowered, so has most every other champion in league upon their release. This is done partially with intention though (whether they realize it or not), players need to see a new champions getting crazy kills, pulling off sickening outplays, and being a carry machine. If a champion comes out weak and can't beat anyone, no one will buy them. Sometimes creating something new and exciting requires ignoring precedent or hard rules. Sometimes things will be overwhelming to start, but overtime players learn how to utilize or combat them. That is the real problem CertainlyT is creating for us. He makes it OUR JOB as players to discover how to counter these champions, and it is only a failure when either almost nobody can counter them, or almost everyone can counter them.

AIIan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sionce Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l5cWpiAf,comment-id=002500040000,timestamp=2015-09-03T18:02:06.438+0000)

While his champions have had a tendency to be overpowered, so has most every other champion in league upon their release. This is done partially with intention though (whether they realize it or not), players need to see a new champions getting crazy kills, pulling off sickening outplays, and being a carry machine. If a champion comes out weak and can't beat anyone, no one will buy them.

First, it's wrong. Bard, Quinn, Azir, I hardly saw them play at all at release, and they were weak and buggy (not to mention that Quinn still is in this state). Not to mention that a large amount of releases where neither bad or overpowered, we just tend to overlook when this happen and remember only the case that validate our theory, just like people constantly complaining that they "hold the nerf" on champs receiving a new skin until they're sold out.

Second, it's morally disgusting, close to false publicity, and you shouldn't be supporting this pratice (not to mention it's no applied in the first place, see above). Saying that it's normal because it's job is wrong (+ it's not his actual job anyway, you're just making things up there).

Third, people would still buy a weak champion if he's fun to play. There's many things one take into account when choosing a champion to pratice, and that can include flavor, overall look, or even the "feeling" you get from playing the champ (for example, I'm a really very bad Yasuo player but I still play him in normal over champs I have a better win-rate with because he's just so smooth and enjoyable to play as, even when I'm getting steamrolled by the opponent and way behind). Guess why some people (including me) are trying hard to make, let's say, Teemo jungle work in ranked ? Because we liked that champ, be it strong or weak.

Malzahard Mode2 votes

I don't know about on EUW, but on NA all of these champions saw frequent play upon release. Azir on release wasn't too oppressive because he has a high skill cap, so most players couldn't make the most use of his kit, plus you have to relearn how to last hit with him since his soldiers do a lot of it, creating a gold deficit a player may not normally face. Bard wasn't OP because he has one damaging spell, the rest of his kit is utility. Quinn.....ok you got me there.

And it's not false publicity, false publicity would be advertising "this champion can 1 V 5 at level 1" when in reality they can;t 1 v 1 when full build. Releasing a champion that is over achieving what it is supposed to is a healthier option to one that can't do it what it's supposed to. (Being told it can do something and then it being able to do; THAT is false advertising) It's easier from a balance perspective to tone down power than it is to decide where to add some.

Third, you're correct, people will buy a fun champion even if he can't be a pentakill easy mode champ. Bard is the perfect example of that. There is no problem with trying to make champions work in roles for which they were not designed for.

TurquoiseYoshi36 votes

The thing is, these champions are completely justified in hatred of them. Maybe some people take it too far, but that's the internet for you. Riot knows well enough not to listen to those people. Most of CertainlyT's champions are, indeed, overloaded and low on counterplay (Counterplay being defined as allowing the user to have more strategic options, and allowing the enemy of the user have more strategic options). If they allowed the enemy to think outside of the box to beat them, then maybe they wouldn't be as hated. But someone having infinite dashes and still a ton of DPS is getting their cake and eating it too.

Agent20903 votes

{quoted}

Most of CertainlyT's champions are, indeed, overloaded and low on counterplay

The champions CertainlyT has designed are actually great...just not in LoL. They are overloaded in LoL, but in few other games I can think of, they would fit in quite well.

slippykitten5 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, these champions are completely justified in hatred of them. Maybe some people take it too far, but that's the internet for you. Riot knows well enough not to listen to those people. Most of CertainlyT's champions are, indeed, overloaded and low on counterplay (Counterplay being defined as allowing the user to have more strategic options, and allowing the enemy of the user have more strategic options). If they allowed the enemy to think outside of the box to beat them, then maybe they wouldn't be as hated. But someone having infinite dashes and still a ton of DPS is getting their cake and eating it too.

I wasn't defending the design, I was defending the designer. Trust me, I agree and hate playing against the Yasuos and kalistas, but that wasn't the point. The point was that by demonizing a man trying to make a living doing his best, you accomplish nothing other than showing that you don't know what it means to have a job.

How about instead of rage induced immature posts, you send Riot a well thought out email about how they can achieve better designed champs.

AIIan4 votes

I wasn't defending the design, I was defending the designer. Trust me, I agree and hate playing against the Yasuos and kalistas, but that wasn't the point. The point was that by demonizing a man trying to make a living doing his best, you accomplish nothing other than showing that you don't know what it means to have a job.

Well, everyone except CertainT achieve doing good champions. How come he can't ? I don't know where you're working, but "having to feed your family" isn't going to protect you from sheer incompetence out there. There's 126 champions right now, and aside from some exceptions here and there (hi Yorick), all of the trash in the league come from his design (although I think you can play around Yasuo abilities and Zyra is now balanced). How long will I have to ban every single one of his champions from my games because they're overloaded, broken and unfun to play against (also, I'm going to run short on the number of bans) ?

How about instead of rage induced immature posts, you send Riot a well thought out email about how they can achieve better designed champs.

Many did that for Mordekaiser rework (and remind that to you in this very topic, but oddly you ignored them all), and now they're sheding silent tears of pain. He won't improve (he only made failure so far). He won't listen. He won't change. I won't enjoy it, but I'm sure eager to see the day he'll be leaving Riot Games.

Kuroi863 votes

Well, everyone except CertainT achieve doing good champions. How come he can't ?

<_<

Kassadin Leblanc XinZhao Jax TwistedFate CT's champs are hardly the first to needs nerfs.

Dextix LT4 votes

Yes but his champs are fundamentally broken. The champs you listed were nerfed and besides kass (which was a monster) every one of them was easily deal with. Now lets look at CertainlyT champions.

Darius - The only counterplay he had and still has is "Dont get close to him". He basically counters almost every melle champion in the game. His whole design is flawed.

Yasuo - His kit was and still is so strong that everything else he has has to be made shit just to make him balanced. RIght now theonly yasuo players that can play him well are those who mastered him.

Zyra - Broken on launch, granted that is not bad, because there were more broken launches, however she suffered the same fate yasuo did. She had to be nerfed to near uselessness for her not to be broken. And she is the mist balanced champ that CT created, how fcked up is that???

Kalista - Do i even need to say anything?

Thresh - The best support in the game bar none, because of his kit which covers EVERY POSSIBILITY. He doesnt have only a heal, but that is fixed to an extent because hes the best ranged support whih can use targon.

You can make him have 0 damage and he will still be usefull because of his insane utility. His whole kit, like those above, is just overloaded.

CT champs are not the first to need nerfs, but they are incredibly hard to balance because of their overloaded kits.

Kuroi863 votes

Yes but his champs are fundamentally broken.

Outside of Yasuo, not really. Broken basically means a champion cannot be strong or else they will warp the meta. Outside of Yasuo, none of CTs champs have done that. Not even Thresh for all the hate he gets lately.

Poppy is broken. Yorick is broken. Allow them to be strong and you will see the meta warped.

Zyra was and is more of a numbers thing, she really only needs a few minor utility tweaks and then minor damage buffs and she would be in a great spot.

Darius fills a very specific power fantasy, he is THE melee champ you don't want to mess with. The only issue is he fills this fantasy a little too well without having the slightest versatility to hope to handle the champs that hard counter him.

Kalista is still getting tuned, though I honestly think she's close to being in a decent and non-overbearing state. About the only thing I'd want to see is a slight range nerf.

Thresh mostly just needs some tuning to his damage and a few of his counters buffed and you'd see his pick rate fall pretty hard.

They need work, but they're actually not the unholy alliance people make them out to be.

The champs you listed were nerfed and besides kass (which was a monster) every one of them was easily deal with.

... LB is one of the few champs that got hot fixed within days of launch.

Xin was the definition of broken and warping games around himself on launch.

And TF... o.o His ult used to be his E. His Gold Card, used to be AoE...

And lets not get into Jax and the old dodge mechanic. >_>

AIIan3 votes

Because Darius, being the ultimate melee champ, had no impact on a previously dominated by melee champ only lane ? And Tresh didn't warp the meta ? Seriously ?

https://euw.op.gg/statistics/champion/

He's at 38% pickrate. He's stifling the support's ecosystem even more than those asian hornet killing european bees and that's not "warping the meta" ? When he's now picked in one of every three game (and we're speaking about millions of games a day) on a whole continent basis ?

Come on.

And let's not talk about old champions. At that time, everything was broken and shitty (hi old twitch, we're missing you !) and the balance and designing team was a band of amateurs who were pretending to be video game developpers. Riot grew as time was passing. CertainT champions would have been fine 5 years back in the past, but new champions are now expected to be better designed kit-wise since about 50 releases.

BastionKross2 votes

Well, everyone except CertainT achieve doing good champions. How come he can't ? I don't know where you're working, but "having to feed your family" isn't going to protect you from sheer incompetence out there.

I agree with this. I can't go to my job tomorrow and screw around all day, then expect not to get the boss on my ass because I have a family. Having people that rely on your paycheck does not in any way excuse workplace incompetence. In fact, it should encourage workplace hyper-competence, since you really, REALLY want to keep your job for the sake of your family. In the vast majority of cases in the real world, you don't get to keep a job if you try, you get to keep a job if you succeed.

But, if Slippykitten owns a business and is hiring, I would love to put in my resume knowing that as long as I have a family to feed, I can do a crappy job at my profession and still continue to get a steady paycheck under his/her employ. I just have to "try my best", as vague and free of responsibility as that concept is.

None of what I said necessarily has any relation to CerT, I just wanted to set the record straight on the "but I've got a family to feed" excuse and how far that will fly in regards to most occupations.

Dextix LT3 votes

I know how. By firing CertainlyT for being shit at his job (which happens EVERYWHERE ELSE) and hire someone who knows about creative champion designs and balance at the same time.

Stop with this "make a living" bullshit. Any piece of work can be critisized, if you do poor job, you will be critisiszed. And you know what happens to people who do bad job in outside world? They get fired, and better people get hirred in their place.

How about instead of ignoring everyone he would start working properly? IS that so much to ask?

Are we all children just because we want the game to become better and see a cancer in its body that is destroying it from inside?

Hayaishi231 votes

Bard is an example of good thinking, the same can be said about Tahm to an extent, but Kalista? Mordekaiser? he deserves all the shit he gets.

500000000000000013 votes

"X champion is anti-fun/toxic/unhealthy/etc." is okay to say. "Fire/kill X Rioter" is not okay.

Tails Doll17 votes

Well since they dont seem to put a stop to this guy, then yes, fire him.

Dextix LT4 votes

Tell me, when someone cant do his job properly and does poor job, isnt it in the companys best interest to fire him?

If someone has a horrible chef in a restaurant whose food makes everyone puke, you will bet your ass that hef is getting fired, why should CertainlyT be special?

50000000000000004 votes

Because it doesn't come off as a person trying to communicate, but rather just angry.

Dextix LT3 votes

He was given 10000000 chances to communicate with us he was given 5 to create even a single nonbroken champion. He didnt use even 1 chance.

Time for communication is over, either he starts working, or he should get the pink slip.

50000000000000003 votes

He used to listen, but then people all started hating him. That's when he stopped listening. Who would want to go and talk with people who just want him gone? You only have yourself to blame as to why he doesn't communicate with us anymore.

Dextix LT7 votes

Of course, the usual "Its the communitys fault". No it isnt. Look up Riot Repertoir. When he announced his garen rework many people wanted to hang him from a tree, me included. What happened? He came and asked US what was wrong with the rework. After this he became the FAVOURITE rioter of all time if im not mistaken, everyone loves him now. Because even after people shat on him, he came and talked to us, worked with us.

Give me at least 1 thread, ONE thread, where CertainlyT came to the community and asked what was wrong with his champion designs and what would make them better. The only times he came to these forums was to talk about HIS vision about HIS opinion and how eveyone EXCEPT him was wrong.

There is no smoke without a fire. People started to hate him only AFTER he made broken champs and refused to communicate, if he acted like Repertoir, the hate wouldnt be there. But he didnt.

It isnt our fault we hate CertainlyT, he made us hate him with his decisions.

Again, check what Repertoir has done, and how he rose from CertainlyT level hate to God level love.

Yormaughm4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l5cWpiAf,comment-id=0005000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-02T16:30:53.156+0000)

Give me at least 1 thread, ONE thread, where CertainlyT came to the community and asked what was wrong with his champion designs and what would make them better. The only times he came to these forums was to talk about HIS vision about HIS opinion and how eveyone EXCEPT him was wrong.

Look, you make a good point about Repertoire vs CertainlyT as far as how they interact with the community, but in a comment just above I said that the boards community is "entitled" only because Riot solicits our feedback. They make us feel special by involving us and engaging us in the first place, but the result is we then feel like we get to make the decisions that it's ultimately their jobs to make. We really don't have that power and never will until we work for the company ourselves. IF they choose to listen to us and implement our feedback, well that's great but they don't have to and the only difference between Repertoire and CertainlyT is how they treat this fact.

In reality you (we) need to ask yourself (ourselves) is Repertoire really that different from CertainlyT? Repertoire knows the psychological and behavioral impact of involving us in the discussion. Even if our feedback is never acted upon.

Repertoire is well-liked because he makes us feel good about things by engaging us and involving us in the discussion. Even though that is no guarantee things will happen differently. Repertoire can talk to you and agree with you and respond to you all day to calm you down and make you feel better, but that may not change the reality of a champion's kit or future patches one bit. Repertoire engages in "damage control" and most of us appreciate that, but a lot of us fail to see that this is really what it is, and others just take solace in the fact that even if nothing changed we can "feel better" about the fact that Riot cares.

CertainlyT just doesn't do this (or does it very seldomly.) I would assume he just sees it as an unnecessary time-wasting step to solicit the community's opinion when it's not going to be a big factor in a decision that has already been made and it will just elicit drama. Since his decisions are ultimately the ones that matter at the end of the day, he doesn't pretend to care about feedback he mostly likely won't use and will more than likely slow him down. This might not be deemed a friendly or positive personality trait, but from a "getting things done" standpoint it's effective and some people just function this way.

So yes, their approaches are different and one is preferential to the other, but both are kind of irrelevant when you consider that you (we) aren't a designer (designers) that works for Riot games.

I feel like if you can find it in yourself to just see what I'm saying as trying to be helpful and not some direct combative argument against you because someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong then maybe you'll understand some of the hostility going on in these threads that may be directed at you, or even understand the hostility that you project as well that people might react negatively to. I don't like some of the decisions CertainlyT has made, but I don't hate him, his job needs to exist for me to play this game that I love.

It isnt our fault we hate CertainlyT, he made us hate him with his decisions.

Again, check what Repertoir has done, and how he rose from CertainlyT level hate to God level love.

Once again, good point at the end. People used to hate on Repertoire a lot more, but what in the end is really the difference? Repertoire learned and engaged in a platform of communication that CertainlyT just hasn't, that's not really a reason for us to hate CertainlyT. And I simply can't agree with you when you said "CertainlyT made us hate him." You can't be "made" to hate, no one but you controls your hate.

Dextix LT4 votes

But it isnt only about communication. It is also about the work done. Repertoire made reworks with our help and feedback, while Darius and garen might be slightly overtuned (too early to tell) their reworks were succesfull.

CertainlyT ignored everything and his rework failed, he tried to experiment with an unpopular champion and made him even worse.

The lack of communication and interaction isnt the only thing i and some of us hate about him. Its what he does. While he creates champs outside the box, those creations have overloaded kits and are almost impposible to balance properly without a rework of the abilities.

When you compare his creations to others you see that his are just worse for the game health. Bard and ekko are good examples of unique champs which are good for game health. Ekko had to be nerfed, yes, but his kit wasnt the thing that made him broken, it was his numbers.

I wouldnt even care if CertainlyT talks to anyone, if he created good and balanced champions. That is not the case.

Chromatic Eagle19 votes

How hard is it to make an off-meta champion with counterplay? That's all he has to do: play AGAINST his champions, or watch testers do so. He doesn't have to blindly trust players, but should take what they say with more weight.

MalzaharAnyLane3 votes

'hurr durr i expected people to l2play faster dan dis to make him work in solo lane'

'the fact that he lost a third of his kit in solo lane wasn't something I ANTICIPATED AT ALL, DERP'

Tails Doll19 votes

Exepct CertanitlyT has only made cancer after cancer champs.

He is responsible of 5 champions. 3 out of which are still complanied one way of an other and out class entire classes by existing.

Zyra Yasuo Thresh Darius Kalista

I'm not sure if he had anything to do with Dairus latest rework, but even before he was a pain, countering basically all melee champions on top lane.

So yeah, you can think outside the box. If you make a mistake it's all fine and danddy if you LEARN from it and do not make the same mistake again.

This guy only knows how to make mistakes that gain a huge player base because, lets face it, who doesnt LOVE steam rolling a game, and his champions allows for this.

BetaDude406 votes

Plus Release Zyra was an absolute pain in the ass. The only thing I think that could compare is the recent Skarner Rework Mark XXVIII

Still doesn't compare to what was release Xin Zhao though...

iamleburk2 votes

number balance isnt kit design tho. The fact that they could balance her means the kit wasn't that bad

63536895_DEL19 votes

The problem isn't that they think outside of the box, the problem is they think outside the box, fuck up horribly, and then don't do anything to fix their mistake.

MalzaharAnyLane5 votes

People wouldn't be so pissy with mistakes if they were reverted more often after they hit live and it ends up being beyond obvious 'This was a really fucking terrible idea.'

Cassiopeia, Fiora and the trend toward skillshots and removals of point and click CC being one large toxic balance trend.

Chromatic Eagle4 votes

I don't consider Fiora to be that bad. She seems easier to balance than say Mordekaiser.

Xyrne19 votes

Everyone talks shit about The Box, everyone wants out of The Box. Did you ever stop to think that The Box is there for a reason? It's clearly trying to protect us from vicious madmen like CertainlyT. Respect The Box.

ABlueQuaker15 votes

I understand and appreciate what you're saying in the context of Riot releasing good/bad champions and people subsequently b*tching about how strong/weak said champion is.

However, I am going to lay into Riot when they announce a rework, people call it terrible and gutting a champion's identity, then two patches later it's released on live completely unchanged.

I was incredibly constructive and positive in all of my threads and posts about the Mordekaiser rework, providing context and alternative changes, and all of them, as well as similar threads by other players, were completely ignored.

TeemoJenkins12 votes

Holy shit... did slippykitten just write a positive post that was rational and well thought out? I think I just died of shock...

slippykitten14 votes

{quoted}

Holy shit... did slippykitten just write a positive post that was rational and well thought out? I think I just died of shock...

Don't get used to it, they are few and far between. Every once in a while my hormones level out for long enough to develop a non rage induced rational thought.

3TWarrior10 votes

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but when things are introduced "to make the game better" and only make it worse (not all of his champions have done that, but it's still unhealthy as slowly as the game is progressing.

For instance, yasuo (many have complained about) is a fairly balanced champion in terms of power, but he is one if not the only melee with an ability to completely negate ranged attacks while in place

thresh, as pointed out in every post about him, has one of the highest pick rates in the game because there is no situation he is unprepared for

kalista, also a balanced champion, but too many champions can not deal wtih the sheer damage and early game stomp she can offer with any support and by herself. Then, almost any skillshot can be rendered pointless if she has a target and the player has practiced enough

it's not that these champions aren't fun to play with, but it's that they can negate so many strategies or abilities just by existing and make the game frustrating and less fun.

if we want to look at a champion that is not of CT's design, Bard: This champion is very underpowered, yet fun to play with, but he has a mechanic that can break a team's safety for 3 seconds. by freezing a tower, there is no longer any escape from a bad situation, such as if he lands his stun and the carry procedes to clean up

each character type should adhere to specific strengths and weaknesses...it's why Ekko was so popular/unpopular. Ekko is a melee assassin, yet he has mage-like abilities and a get out of jail free card ultimate...

speaking of which...Zed

I believe zed follows the same problems ekko has

now, compare them to the other characters of their type

assassin: akali, melee ranged, completely melee ranged

evelynn, melee ranged with high spam ability and invisibiilty

zed: he moves wherever he wants and does whatever he wants because he has a reset, like ekko

fighter: well, most of the fighters are balanced, yet even though they are supposed to be the highest damage potential, most other classes output more. but lets take a look: mordekaiser, lane bully, high damage potential, decent range, very tanky

jayce: lane bully, high damage potential, long range, great burst and move speed, but he is not as tanky as any other fighters

darius: supreme melee lane bully, falls off against any other opponents

riven: lane bully, high damage, works on surprise plays

dr mundo: gets into the fight and stays there, dealing as much damage as he takes if he can stick to a target

the AD carry...as of the moment, there are approximately 5 competitively viable carries and about 3 backups...so only about 50% of the entire marksman pool is used

tanks: there are good tanks: sion, maokai, malphite(idk how), blitzcrank, thresh, etc

then there are the tanks that have a hard time doing their job...either by lack of adequate defense or crowd control(tank is my least favorite role so I don't have much experience as one)

by now you surely get the point

to make things better, there should indeed be new elements added, but if those elements just conflict with the old, it has a very negative impact when abused, which unfortunately happens to be most of the champion pool CT has released and numbers only change so much

personally, I think yasuo would be much better if he could release his tornado like a spell instead of on a charge system and change the amount of defense he has

there's a lot that needs redone

Retillin3 votes

Stop. With. Logic!

3TWarrior4 votes

not while i'm sane! XD

kJs2 votes

These are generally what I think of the champions you've mentioned and my response to what your opinions are.

I think Ekko's general theme is just overloaded because his designer decided to put two ideas that work awkwardly well together; assassin + utility. If Ekko would have been designed with low utility/CC and subsequently had more power from his melee range (be it from AAs or from very low ranged abilities) and ultimate rather than spamming his Qs, he may actually be a better champion IMO. It's just that he has assassin capabilities with support level CC, which could have been fine, but additionally, Ekko has his ultimate... which I don't think needs much explaining.

Akali can throw her marks to deal damage I'm pretty sure so she isn't completely melee ranged.

Zed having a reset? Where? Do you mean his shadows? You're confusing me with using the word 'reset' because that implies ability resets such as Diana's, Katarina's and Darius's ultimate. Zed has a lot of counters at the moment and he has a relatively moderate skill floor. You can't just pick him up the first time and expect to learn the basics as fast as say, Wukong.

Darius is the supreme lane bully, however he no longer falls off late game. The fact that he can simply build tank and be effective because of his 30% (max) heal on a relatively low cooldown, having super massive slows as well as having the capacity to deal high amounts of (true) damage which he can quite easily reapply to the rest of the enemy team makes him a viable pick in soloQ, now, at least. His only weakness being lack of mobility which team mates can cover with buffs, i.e. Nami, Janna, Thresh, etc.

Riven is a lane bully that wins, most of the time, because she is resourceless against commonly resource based opponents. Right now, off the top of my head only true tanks can blunt her effectiveness. Dr. Mundo being an example, If she had some form of resource to mitigate her completely free abilities then maybe her match-ups would actually be more interesting. She isn't overtly OP right now but her laning is just absurd IMO.


Yasuo's biggest problem, I think, is that he has his windwall. The way the ability works right now is stupidly strong and hard to balance because of its mechanical nature; that it simply blocks everything and that there are no "scaling levers" (AP/AD) to play around with other than its size and duration. Yasuo just has so much team impact with it even if he's behind. Allowing him to block almost every ability currently, popularly, used in the game.

If I were an experienced Riot designer I would have probably made it so that an ability replaced Windwall, something that's less externally/teamfight effective and more self-centred like an ability that buffs Yasuo's own passive shield or something. That way he gets to keep his more fun abilities like his Sweeping Dash intact.

3TWarrior2 votes

I agree mostly, as for reset, I meant in reference to ekko as many refer to his ultimate as a "reset button", as exactly what it is.

he takes back time to heal himself and damage, well Zed can escape from any situation...the same issue applies to leblanc, but i've never seen a leblanc 1 v 5 a team

Crowe Stalker2 votes

{quoted}

tanks: there are good tanks: malphite (idk how)

Malphite works because he has an extremely strong initiation when well-executed or amazing follow-up when properly initiated, an AoE Attack Speed Slow (one of the last if not the last in the game) and scales off of his armor in an offensive way. Malphite is (supposed to be) the literal answer to auto-attack carries like Vayne or Draven that do their jobs too well. Unfortunately that's not as true when Vayne has a 2 second Tumble with Invisibility, but he's still extremely effective at dueling a carry when caught out of position because he can build pure armor and still do damage because of how is Brutal Strikes and Ground Slam work and, once again, he drastically reduces the power of auto-attack carries by literally cutting their auto attack speed in half at max rank. Basically, the AD Carry (if they are any good) have no choice but to focus on Malphite or be rendered next to useless if not flat out killed in some cases.

ZzEslIolZQ7 votes

Inb4 some worthless rioter posts in this white knight thread. Guys don't criticize riot then they'll have to defend their worthless employees who've fucked up time and time again cause you're criticizing them wow think of the children.

Fucking pathetic.

Keevalroy6 votes

For a short time, it was an annoyance to see a CertainlyT champion. And now...now that everyone and their mother is playing Yasuo again for some reason, and Thresh is still being picked (what a surprise) and Kalista is still allowed to exist with that disgusting fucking passive so long past her release has renewed somewhat dormant hatred for what he's done to League. Oddly enough, it was when no one was playing Yas or Kalista...it was nice...like a breath of fresh air. Then they came back with Sated Dev and League went to shit again.

I've continued to despise his creations all this time, but now I'm back to the point I was a few months ago where even hearing Yasuo shout like a moron makes my blood boil. When will the reworks happen? You wanted to bring Morde into a healthy environment: well what the fuck do you know about game health?? You mean to tell me you can't see how toxic your creations are? You want to deny how much of a problem they are? Your abominations are a menace to game health and need to be reworked or removed as soon as possible.

I had heard somewhere that Yasuo would be getting nerfed again if he reached 50% win rate. (49.32%) It's gettin' to be that time Riot, maybe you could move this along sooner rather than later.

"But Vayne doe! She needs it more den Yas does!"

I'm a Vayne player - gut her or buff her counters, I really don't care, just put these horrible mistakes front in center so the rework team can get started first.

Enosetc5 votes

would you say that an out of the box idea improves the game if it's executed poorly? not speaking on any specific examples -- just curious on your thoughts

Rozzeta5 votes

One thing is to think outside the box, the other is to do so in order to make your champion void of weakness.

It's as if that 7 year old kid that whenever loses starts says "it doesn't count, because I had my force field on" was given the role of champion designer.

Catastrop3 votes

To be honest, the only champions that I legit hate that he created is Yasuo. All the others were fine because they were cool and fun. This guy is just fun to play and spectate. No regards to the person playing against him. It's just agonizing if you're on the other side and he knows what he's doing.

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