Since her rework, Sona has seen 0 competitive play

RedCyclone·Aug 14, 2015·92 votes·17,742 views

Not to say that her competitive scene was bustling before the rework, but she was played a few times at each event But since the rework we see nothing of her, and why would any high tier player pick her? she requires a ton of AP to be decent, all while being easily killable at all points in the game

People may feel that she shouldn't be in a position to considered a competitive pick, even rarely, because she is a easy champion But it's not exactly fair when Lee Sin gets buffs because "lower tier plays don't do well with him" while there are champions like Sona who sit on their hands and forcing people to play better supports with a higher skillcap like the 2 champions who have made her irrelevant (Naut and Nami, who lest i remind you is getting buffed and annoyingly in the area Sona needs it)

If Lee gets buffs out of nowhere for the excuse that lower elo players don't do well with them, what about champions that higher elo players don't do well with and consider a handicap for being played as they limit your skill

144 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 14, 201543 votes

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

CatAndBookTailsAug 14, 201510 votes

It's pretty much the problem that Nami outclasses her in every single regard, not to mention that Thresh is a thing.

AbyssphereAug 14, 201568 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

I think it's because in the past she didn't need gold to function at all. Her auras were just base stats, they didn't need to scale off of anything. But now she scales off of AP in absolutely everything and her base values are frankly quite poor. Her poke in particular is pretty much balanced around her picking up a Sheen at this point, which quite simply isn't going to happen in competitive play.

Also, as another guy said, people are just terrible at playing against her in solo q. People call Sona easy but against a good opponent she's really not, which is the problem with competitive. Playing aggressively with a champion who's made out of paper has a ton of risks associated with it, especially against tanky supports who can genuinely 100-0 her if they land their engage in the early levels. But she's balanced around people not retaliating because solo q players are a lot more likely to run away from Sona's poke than they are to fight her back, even though after she's used her damage is the best possible time to attack her.

ProfirixAug 14, 20154 votes

This post pretty much sums up Sona's problem.

Photos of GhostsAug 14, 201532 votes

She has no more auras, she has no more identity. Sona is now a Q poke bot, which is not valuable enough.

MrAluminumAug 14, 20154 votes

This, 100 percent. The only way for a team to benefit off of a Sona support instead of a walking-CC like every other support (Braum/Morgana/Nami/ect) was her auras. Now, she has to just cycle and spam all her spells, and the buffs change so rapidly that they don't benefit anyone. The ONLY way to play her now is as a poke champ, but even that doesn't work since you need to rush a Sheen to do so.

Her viability in lower ELOs is the fact that nobody wants to take poke, and retreat. Once you hit higher ELOs or the pro scene, thats no longer an issue. Therefore, no Pro play.

chipndip1Aug 14, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

Support/Mage champs ARE being crowded out by other supports...maybe save Morgana. Almost every competitive pick is a tanky engage support. All the support/mage picks or the mage/support picks are either better off mid lane or better off not being played competitively.
She IS too nerfed. She doesn't do insane amounts of damage unless she goes mid and builds it, but anyone else can emulate that damage anyway. There's no reason why her Q shouldn't be able to out-damage the sustain of a Doran's Blade at level 1 (I thought A Wild AP Sona was just using hyperbole on this point, but not only did I start winning more after changing my mindset after reading his rage post, he was fking right...). Even then, her utility components are relatively weak in comparison to nearly any other support simply because they're aoe. The problem is that they're too weak. You're not giving enough incentive to prefer shielding 5 people with a short, crappy shield over shielding one person with a shield so damn massive it takes an ult or a crit to shred it off while it lasts for a good 2-3 or so seconds while giving other benefits like movement or damage. The cost on the shield+heal is too high for how weak it is as well.

So part of it is a meta problem that hasn't been addressed for a long time (tank supports are way too valuable and do too much while mage supports can't really excel at damage-dealing because they'll just go mid, but they can't lock people down because they're squishy and easy to punish), and part of it is the fact that you guys over-nerfed Sona in the long run.

Kitsuki05Aug 14, 20154 votes

I think it all boils down to that Sona just isn't a safe pick with how powerful supports have become. Also, despite this risk, Sona just isn't very rewarding when you do well as her, sure you do a lot more damage than most other supports, but you can't really push a lane or do anything on your own still.

Overall Sona is high risk, low reward, so she never going to be highly sought after. I don't believe there's anything inherently wrong with her, and I love her kit, it's just easy to recognize why I wouldn't want to go into ranked with her.

PartholonianAug 14, 20154 votes

All of the squishy supports are TOO squishy IMO. Especially with the high popularity of hard engage supports meaning you're almost guaranteed to lane against one. Then they'll engage on you and probably kill you instantly. At that point it doesn't really matter how much poke and utility you have.

But Sona is particularly bad because she's so short ranged now, it's almost impossible to do anything useful while staying safely positioned. You can't trade when the enemy can 100-0 you.

TotalJerkAug 14, 201516 votes

Her problem is that she's extremely squishy on top of being COMPLETELY unable to do anything about hard engage pre-6. Leona can pretty much guarantee a kill on her at level one if the ADC is nearby.

The nerfs made little sense, they were said to be because she dominates her winning matchups too hard, but they did nothing to address that while making her losing matchups even worse. She's still horribly oppressive in certain matchups, but the laning phase is now borderline unwinnable at a high level against others.

AmazingGoatAug 14, 20155 votes

Relic shield makes sona's poke less valuable, and makes tank supports have comparable sustain.

WakamuneAug 14, 20155 votes

For free. They heal for free.

Nagoh ShanAug 14, 201523 votes

No they actually get paid to heal.

A Wild AP SonaAug 14, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

coming from a person with 4k games of sona experience in high elo unlike the silver children that dont actually know how to play league of legends

because she has been nerfed 32 times including shit like her passive on q nerfed from 100% to 40% (wtf?) her e no longer works on speeding up minions (great for pushing lanes) and all kinds of other bullshit rebuff her damage so nami/soraka dont hit for 2x the damage output that sona does early game

literally any support you think of out trades sona including janna because her level 1-3 poke is a complete joke dont believe me? look at the wiki or check out nami/sorakas damage

Sona Magic Damage: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 50% AP)

Nami (DONT FORGET EBB AND FLOW ALSO HEALS FOR 2X WHAT SONAS HEAL DOES TOO ITS 100% IMPOSSIBLE TO OUT TRADE NAMI MAXING EBB AND FLOW AS SONA) Magic Damage: 75 / 130 / 185 / 240 / 295 (+ 50% AP) Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 50% AP) 「 Bonus Magic Damage Per Hit: 25 / 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 (+ 20% AP) 」「 Total Bonus Magic Damage: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 60% AP) 」

go ahead and look at the wikipedia for any champion

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Soraka

bad kids like to max heal on soraka first even though thats pointless due to its cooldown/naturall high base a good soraka player will sometimes max the starcall or silence ability first so soraka can actually harass

especially during an all in 2v2 situation

「 Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 35% AP) 」「 Empowered Magic Damage: 105 / 165 / 225 / 285 / 345 (+ 52.5% AP) 」

「 Magic Damage: 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 (+ 40% AP) 」「 Total Magic Damage: 140 / 220 / 300 / 380 / 460 (+ 80% AP) 」

and NO you cannot include the power chord bullshit because its not up all the time additionally you CANNOT use the q proc every time against players in high elo or you will get shit on and killed instantly for being a predictable sona noob that goes out of position just to do an extra 20 damage

in low elo a thresh/naut/blitz is some kid posting on facebook while missing a hook every 20 seconds thats why they think sona is "easy"

in high elo its a skillshot machine that times their hooks when minions are about to be last hit by the adcs so their hook is already flying at you as the minion dies

they are waiting for chances to randomly flash to hook you to force you to go flash for flash because sona is basically eliminated from fighting until flash is back up because the next hook will kill her

any of these shitters would be 0-10 against some d1 blitz/thresh/naut support within about 8 minutes of laning vs them try laning against some known players that actually appear on the front page of league rank games and see how "op" sona really is

you will discover she is laughably weak there is a reason only 3 people can play sona in high elo without feeding there is also a reason why I am stuck in d3 this season why bakanino is stuck in d3 when he was master last season and why dota sona that was d1 is like d5 now

did we suddenly forget how to play sona? no infact I am the best I have ever been at league

its because all the old high elo sona mains cant get their real elo back due to sona being way overnerfed and being completely unviable vs people that actually know how to play league

SasogwaAug 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

I think she's not as lane-dominant as she was before. Squishy poke/sustain - based champions kinda have to win lane in order to be relevant, else they will be outscaled by higher CC supports ( Alistar Nautilus Thresh ) that can offer more peel.

Sona still has her ult, but she kinda needs to dominate lane to be viable. And since she's a support I don't really see how she could get enough AP to make her damages/heal relevant. Unless you put higher scaling values / %health heal/shield?

Also, I've seen threads about how unrewarding it feels to put points in E. Sure, you max it last, but still, 1% per rank which is all what leveling this spell does, is really low.

WakamuneAug 14, 20154 votes

Her aura effects look "fun" and "interactable" on paper but at the end of the day, it only restricts her movement and independence in lane. You have a perfectly telegraphed Q aura that requires you to be close to your adc so they can do the auto-attack nuke on their adc. If you're laning against a competent post-6 annie or Leona, it's not gonna happen. They'll either kill you or heal through your "skillfully timed poke" with relic shield.

Post rework Sona is also terrible for new players. When you lane with people new to the game, they are not likely to interact with Leona's or Braum's; they are not certain about the outcome so they don't want to trade/fight. But they can understand "go in when they are low" and they want the 20 ad/ap aura to help them practice CS. Sona heals and provides a movement speed aura so if she sees a gank coming she can escort the adc away, all this independent from her adc.

With aura ranges so tiny she's not helping much. Getting close to her adc just to keep them out of trouble is asking for Graga and Sejuani ults when they come gank.

Also consider that Karma has group speed boost, an AoE shield, and a Q nuke. Same kit, minus stun but with pre-6 CC.

Xela SyabAug 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

She doesn't have any early cc, it's just her ult and her E auto combo slow.
She doesn't have escape so she's easy to pick off early game.
She's really really really mana dependant, she's not relevant unless she has clarity or chalice + mana.
It's dangerous for her to ward, she actually has to depend on a tanky jungler or top lane to bushcheck first.
She has to duo with a poke heavy adc.
She has to permanently stay backline and she can still get melted by assassins.

under this conditions she's only a strong pick if the enemy team doesn't pick any gap closing burst assassins or strong ganking jungler which is impossible unless the enemy team picks jungle shyvana and orianna mid. If she was innately tankier like Janna she'd be a better pick or if she did more damage or early cc she would go midlane as a utility support like lulu. Essentially Lulu does everything Sona does but better and is less liable in lane.

desertoflameAug 14, 20153 votes

I think in general Soraka sustain > Sona

RedCycloneAug 14, 20153 votes

VS players who dont know how to handle her, she is overbearing (between bronze and gold) VS players who do know how to handle her, she is the easiest lane to play against

Can we please do something about her E what gains next to 0 benefit when you rank it up

LeeDarkAug 14, 20154 votes

She is a ranged poke support. This puts her mostly in competition with Janna, Nami, and Morgana. Sona used to be the queen of poke supports, and for this, her CC was extremely limited. She did better damage and healed any poke her opponents put out, but lacked the ability to escape from engages. Higher damage is always going to be more useful in the early game. CC matters less because CC largely stays the same throughout the game. You lock someone down for 2 seconds early, but your teammate doesn't have the damage to kill them in 2 seconds. You do that later on in the game, and that person gets deleted by your teammate.

High damage in the early game zones out opponents and forces them to be more aggressive, specifically more predictably aggressive. When Leona and her ADC come back to lane from base, having been poked out by Sona previously, you KNOW they are going to want to engage quickly if they can, while they have full health and Sona has less mana. They know if they wait, she's just going to poke them. If your jungler is there waiting, instead of killing Sona, they get double killed.

Now, however, because she was seen as too much of a bully, she was nerfed, without any compensation in other areas to make up for that. She STILL lacks the CC and disengage of the more viable ranged poking supports, and she is still just as squishy as she always was.

Leaf of the lakeAug 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

I think the meta is partly to blame here. Since tanky supports are favored right now, sona isn't a very desirable pick. She's easily all-in'd, and doesn't bring the same utility as other mage supports. When it comes to mage supports, they're all picked for very specific reasons. Karma is picked for her teamwide speed buff. Morg for her black shield. Lulu for her incredible peel and speed boost (even though she's usually put in a solo lane anyway). Janna for the best disengage in the game. Before her nerfs, raka was picked for her unparalleled sustain. Why should a team pick sona, though? She does a little bit of everything, but nothing as well as any of these champions. If a team wants a squishy generalist, they'll probably pick nami, since she has strengths that align more with what teams want (like having hard CC on a basic ability).

Here's what sona brings to the table:

Very strong poke
Some sustain
Some speed
An aoe stun ult
Every three ability casts: A slow, a damage reduction debuff, or just extra damage

That's her kit in a nutshell. From this profile, her damage seems to be the main reason you should pick her, when damage is one of the last things pros look for in a support. In low elo, kills happen more often, making a support's damage more important; in high elo, utility reigns supreme. Since her strength is damage, that means she is very strong when ahead, capable of bullying enemies out of lane repeatedly, but she doesn't have as much to fall back on when the enemy laners present a significant threat to her. As long as sona follows the profile I outlined above, I don't think it's possible to bring her into a state where she is picked competitively without becoming overbearing for soloqueue. Her identity is simply too at odds with what pros want, meaning she has to be overpowered to be worth picking.

In light of that, I think these would be the healthiest places to add gameplay:

Her E
Her powerchord

Simply making her Q more powerful would just make her stronger for soloqueue without really changing anything for the pro scene, and making her sustain better would just promote an uninteractive lane, so making her Q or W stronger is off the table. However, her E is a form of utility that can enable interesting gameplay, giving pros a reason to pick her in the form of a teamwide speed buff, making this probably the healthiest ability to funnel power into. Finding ways to increase the utility on her powerchord (that don't just involve making it do more damage) would be another good direction to take.

LoquaciousKumqatAug 15, 20152 votes

Her E should remove slows or something.

Rundus1Aug 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

Hello. Sona fan here just wanted to weigh in. Idk about anyone else, but I asked a few of my diamond and plat friends this and they pretty much all had the same answer:
1)She's picked for hid dominance in lane and ability to win lane for the adc against most matchups that aren't Leona Thresh and Blitz. 2) Her innate squishiness (is she still the squishiest in the game?) Causes her dominance to be unusable against engage supports or poke supports or adcs unless you coordinate perfectly with your own adc, and even then only certain match-ups work. 3) With all the power given to junglers, ganks are almost inevitably going to be frequent and sona does poorly against any jungler with the ability to engage or any jungler taking advantage of a supports engage. 4) With the popularity of mobility, Sona's e just doesn't make the cut against gap-closing engages or even just running away in general. Its only really good for chasing people down as a team, and even that is lack luster unless your ahead significantly. Her and Sivir work well, but if you can't get an advantage, they're less than useless (except for ult).

TiberiusAudleyAug 15, 20153 votes

Partially due to the heavy influence of lane swaps in competitive play and her absolute uselessness outside of a duo lane. She is made to be a lane bully, which means if there aren't opposing laners to bully, she has nowhere to go. She doesn't really get anything out of roaming since she doesn't have CC to set up ganks.

Additionally, as a lane bully, she was nerfed quite a bit by the changes to her Q and passive. It was compensated slightly by increased objective control (Sona comps can do Dragon/Baron really quickly thanks to her Q), but not enough to warrant her other weaknesses.

Sona as a champion is weak to enemy jungle pressure in general. (Can't dickwave Qs freely in lane if enemy jungler is near), and she's one of the least safe champions to attempt to ward on (her E is her only method of self-peel while roaming. Compare to other meta supports right now like Sona, Alistar, Nautilus, Thresh, etc. who have much stronger methods of ensuring they get out safely.)

As far as her primary niche outside of laning phase, she's an ult bot. Her auras/spells don't bring team fight impact, only her ult does. In that regard, Annie far outshines Sona due to her higher burst damage in conjunction with the ult, as well as her additional stuns as a fight gets drawn out.

Her QWE in team fights are really poor overall, with Q's relative short range putting her in too much risk to do anything unless the team fight is drawing to a close (win or lose).

Bullet version:

Annie is stronger in "FLASH AOE STUN HARD ENGAGE" niche
QWE unsatisfying outside of laning phase.
Competitive laning phase usually 1v0 in side lanes, Sona shit roamer.
Weak to jungle pressure when standard lanes actually happen

RozzetaAug 15, 20153 votes

Sona's main weakness is initiation. Bot lane is now full of initiators whom Sona simply can't poke down because they are too tanky (she lost a lot of her base power thanks to the combination of the Support scaling utility and her reworked Q "aura" damage, so now requires a lot of AP to actually sunction in pre nerf damage levels).

only zhuleAug 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think teams occasionally picked her before, but no longer do? Is it strictly that she's been too nerfed? That she's not standing out as far as what she brings to the table? That she's being crowded out by other supports? Or something else?

It's a little bit of all of what you said. The nerf she got not only handicapped her damage in a lot of ways, a base bonus to your allies AD/AP tends to go a lot further in most cases then a one time per cast buff of some magic damage. This shows up super clearly in how she use to be great for tower pushes with giving herself and her allies a bonus 8-20 AD/AP. Her current bonus only triggers off units, meaning that even if you are spamming skill the only bonus damage you will be adding is off your passive. Where before her rework a sheen did a lot to help her damage output, but it wasn't a 100% core item if you wanted to do damage. Her current style does not just suggest her building a sheen it outright requires before you can start doing even remotely reasonable damage. However even with a spellblade effect she still suffers from having all her spells base cooldowns raised by a couple seconds each.

With her rework she lost a metric ton of what she brought to the table for a team. The ability to chain together bonus damage and bonus resistances, made her a huge assist to your team and her value didn't sharply drop off after she used her ultimate. However the thing the she brought most to a team was her ability to stay out of combat and still effect the flow of it. You could stand 800-1000 range back and your presence was still felt. To compensate for that she was made very physically weak so that if you did catch her she went down pretty fast. Now she has to be much more aggressive and in the middle of combat to have any effect on the flow of combat. She however was not given anything in the rework to make that easier. So basically you have the same basic play style but now you have to be within about 300 range of your allies to be useful.

She is also getting crowded out by many of the other supports. You have champions like Nami who are very similar to Sona but with better numbers, or having passives that function the same as Sona's abilities. You also have champions like Annie or Morgana who are powerful mid lane choices, but can also easily fill a support role without sacrificing all that much utility. Add to this you champions like Naut who have great engages, decent damage, and are tanks allowing them to shrug off most damage you can throw at them. However i would say the biggest offender is TahmKench , here we have a champion who is not only built to be tanky and thus hard to push out of lane. But also affords some reasonable utility in his slow and ability to gobble up allies to save them. The cherry on top though is that even with all that power he is also afforded very good damage on his offensive skills.

How is Sona support to compete when there are champions who are in most regards just better versions of her? Champions who can go from their intended role to being support without sacrificing much to do so? And with a meta that strongly favors tanky supports over damage/utility ones?

I would also like it remembered that most champions who are currently picked for support are more then capable of filling out more then just the support role. However with the rework Sona lost her ability to be viable in the mid lane, and got relegated to being JUST a support.

CindikleAug 31, 20153 votes

IMO it's a mix of being pushed out, lack of any meaning full identity and overnerfed(which to me is justified because of who she is).

She got pushed out hard as the main reason to me. She's always had harder time with tankier support. But she would always outscale them since tanky supports didn't have the gold to get as tanky as they needed. Her hardest counters basically became meta. But she's still Sona, and was still strong. But S4 overall pushed her out fairly hard on this alone.

Next up is her lack of identity. Yes she has her aura's, but overall people just keep saying she's a lesser Nami. And you can compare the kits and see that they do a lot of the same things. While I disagree with the statement because they do it in different ways. It still shows there is a problem. You can't have the aura's be strong otherwise it promotes passive play. I think how they function should be rethought.

Lastly is being overnerfed. Before she has 1-2 ranks in her R she is horrible outside of Q+passiveAA. W will drain her mana. E isn't even taken. Her abilities are trash for a roll that is meant to be stronger early game.

Take her aura's, and put them on her passive. Make them meaningful. This would replace the current one. In turn make her base abilities a little more reliable/stronger. To keep Q from being too oppressive you can add a mana-returning mechanic into this new aura setup.
Using R automatically activates her passive. This gives her kit more depth as she can use it quickly if needed at a cost and allows some combo effects.
Using R can also add additional effects. Enemies tagged by an allies Q aura on hit proc will add additional Q strings(making it possible to Q a whole team). W can add an AoE heal, like a weaker version of Janna's ult. E could add a slow field around Sona, one that cannot be dashed into.

Pika310Aug 31, 20153 votes

All of the above and more.

Mind the last part about her ult's mana cost(which took 1 year, 4 months and 2 weeks to fix), I have a list of the majority of her problems right here:

Count BuffonAug 14, 201514 votes

I remember QQ threads from 2-3 years ago about her getting nerfs every patch because Rito no like invisible power or sustain bots. I guess the QQers were right. Seriously, if you nerf the invisible power and the sustain, that leaves what, her ultimate and her passive?

I don't know why she's dead in the LCS but doing ok on lolking.net numbers, though. All I can think of is that mains are better at using item 3303 than their enemies are at countering it. I find Madame Qweqwe horribly boring to play regardless, though.

RedCycloneAug 14, 20154 votes

She's a good champion to play up till plat things get much more difficult after that and to play her, it requires the enemy to pick their botlane first, and that botlane not be a clean cut counter against Sona (and there isn't many champions that are played who don't destroy Sona)

Aeolian MelodiesAug 14, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Buffon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l4fPAZ8v,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-08-14T10:30:36.057+0000)

I remember QQ threads from 2-3 years ago about her getting nerfs every patch because Rito no like invisible power or sustain bots. I guess the QQers were right. Seriously, if you nerf the invisible power and the sustain, that leaves what, her ultimate and her passive?

I don't know why she's dead in the LCS but doing ok on lolking.net numbers, though. All I can think of is that mains are better at using than their enemies are at countering it. I find Madame Qweqwe horribly boring to play regardless, though.

Because a skilled Sona in an unorganized environment (yoloQQ, even in high elo, is unorganized by nature) can control her lane very well and win it basically on her own and there are actually lots of people who don't know how to properly deal with an aggressive Sona. How many times have I seen people just back away in fear when I Q + Staccato? "Hi, I'm the most fragile champion in the game and I just used my threat, please retaliate. No? Okay then, thanks a lot for the free poke, I'll come back when it's available". In competitive play, however, bot lanes and teams can easily coordinate to feed off her which is a lot easier than to feed off other supports.

Supports in a casual environment also tend to have more gold than in pro games because there are typically more kills (ergo more assists for them) in casual games than in pro games, how many games do we see with sub 10 kills on each teams? That's not a lot of assists money for a support - meaning the AP support builds are rare in pro games, and Sona's rework has made her a lot better as AP-focused support than full support with only Crucible, Locket etc.

DJ Di0Aug 14, 201510 votes

{quoted}

It's not going to work. Just quit trying to fucking balance the game around pickrates in competitive play. Warwick/Kayle/Xin are all broken as shit with 54% winrates and none of them are going to see competitive. It's a different game altogether.

You're calling Warwick broken? lol

You need to look at more than just winrate; I seriously don't understand why people still do this.

I'll use a formula that Gameplay and Balance learned yesterday

Lee Sin's winrate is at 46.53% in plat+. He must be in a bad spot, right? Well, his play rate is 15.98% If Lee Sin has a 46.53%winrate with a 15.98% pickrate, that means that in **7.4% of games won in plat+, Lee Sin is in the comp. **

Now let's look at Sona's and Warwick's.

WW: 54.63% x 7.28%= 3.9% of games won in plat+ have a Warwick in their comp

Sona: 52.33% x 4.76%= ** 2.4% of games won in plat+ have a Sona in their comp**

Buffing champs like Sona/WW/etc to the point that they see competitive play ruins solo que. Nerfing champs like Lee Sin/Leblanc/Kassadin/etc. to the point where they aren't pick/ban in competitive makes them excruciatingly weak in solo queue.

Kassadin is really weak, yes, but people really understimate Lee Sin and Leblanc

It's obnoxious that so many people are insistent on balancing the game around competitive pickrates when it is clearly causing mass imbalance in solo queue (which is Riot's main customer base and the gameplay they should be attempting to balance imo).

THIS RIGHT HERE. THIS IS WHY I DONT GET THE SONA COMPLAINTS! Literally anyone in this thread playing sona has a high chance to win except that guy who has like 4k games on her because he plays at that point where she needs help. But they cant make her good for high elo without most likely making her stupid broken for lower elos.

Let's see if this holds true for Sona compared to other supports.

,,,,,,Winrate x Playrate

Thresh: 48.96% x 39.12%= 19.15% of games won in plat+ have a Thresh in their comp

Janna: 54.37% x 23.64%= 12.8% of games won in plat+ have a Janna in their comp

Blitzcrank: 54.04% x 16.1%= 8.7% of games won in plat+ have a Blitzcrank in their comp

Leona: 51.48% x 15.49%= 7.9% of games won in plat+ have a Leona in their comp

Sona: 52.33% x 4.76%= ** 2.4% of games won in plat+ have a Sona in their comp**

Now do you see why people whine about Sona a lot?

People go on championgg/lolking/whatever and see Thresh's winrate then think "oh well uhh he only has a 48% winrate, he's perfectly balanced", then look at Sona's and think "she has one of the highest winrates, if anything nerf her more!"

But in reality Thresh wins almost 9 times more games than Sona does.

Blade of JusticAug 14, 20156 votes

If there's one thing I've learned from the competitive scene, it's that if you like your champs the way they are, hope they never see competitive play. They almost always get nerfed.

TerraRisingAug 14, 20155 votes

It's not the nerfs or the rework that pushed Sona out of competitive. It's the meta that did.

Right now, the professional LoL meta for supports is to have as much reliable crowd control and to not die while roaming around the map. Sona really doesn't do that well, as her auras are most effective with a partner.

Annie has three spells that proc her passive when it's ready. When caught, she can stun her attackers and possibly get away. Nautilus is the king of CC. Alistar has his Headbutt/Pulverize combo. Braum has his shield and his ultimate. Thresh will always see competitive play, even if his spells did no damage whatsoever.

What Sona has is a thin skillshot ultimate as her CC, and probably needs to Flash to make it effective.

SnugglePuggle94Aug 14, 20154 votes

Hey, good news! I read on Twitter that a Rioter, Rickless Abandon, is thinking about Sona ideas. So she is going to get some love! But I agree, she needs some buffs.

Hatless CasualAug 14, 20151 votes

Let's just pray to Gaben it's not a Mord level redo.

DJ Di0Aug 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hatless Casual,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l4fPAZ8v,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2015-08-14T20:46:27.689+0000)

Let's just pray to Gaben it's not a Mord level redo.

Well, I kind of think it's at least interesting how they changed him like that.

Hey, I'd totally be down in turning Sona into a midlane utility mage :^)

Hatless CasualAug 14, 20152 votes

As would I, but her biggest flaw for that right now is her tiny "heal" and single poke spell and slow as f$#@ auto attack speed on top of dying to a stiff breeze.

I really do love playing Sona, but right now it take so little to screw up with her.

Sassmast3rAug 14, 20154 votes

Well, I think part of the problem was the fact that she was the literal epitome of toxicity. I don't know about you, or the rest of the community for that matter, but I highly dislike someone who walks up, Q's, chunks me for a good portion of my health, and then E's and runs away before I can even retaliate, because their Q casts so far AND is homing that they can usually escape back under their tower before I can even counter them. I want to say "Make Sona's Q a skillshot!" but too many people are attached to the current Sona, and too many people would not use her if this was the case I'm afraid. Yet honestly, if they forced you to do at least one AA, and not just instantaneously throw homing missiles out just for pressing Q while nearby; if she ACTUALLY HAD TO RIGHT CLICK, then I would be fine with it, because they could simply lower her AA range, and bam she becomes fair, due to her Q being much more telegraphed. But the fact that she gets homing missiles AND an empowered right click, which sometimes becomes even MORE empowered every three spell casts just infuriates me is all. For me it's just... unpredictable inevitable damage that then can be even worse with her Power Chord or if she herself goes in and AA's even without the power chord. It's just... frustrating.

AbyssphereAug 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Well, I think part of the problem was the fact that she was the literal epitome of toxicity. I don't know about you, or the rest of the community for that matter, but I highly dislike someone who walks up, Q's, chunks me for a good portion of my health, and then E's and runs away before I can even retaliate, because their Q casts so far AND is homing that they can usually escape back under their tower before I can even counter them. I want to say "Make Sona's Q a skillshot!" but too many people are attached to the current Sona, and too many people would not use her if this was the case I'm afraid. Yet honestly, if they forced you to do at least one AA, and not just instantaneously throw homing missiles out just for pressing Q while nearby; if she ACTUALLY HAD TO RIGHT CLICK, then I would be fine with it, because they could simply lower her AA range, and bam she becomes fair, due to her Q being much more telegraphed. But the fact that she gets homing missiles AND an empowered right click, which sometimes becomes even MORE empowered every three spell casts just infuriates me is all. For me it's just... unpredictable inevitable damage that then can be even worse with her Power Chord or if she herself goes in and AA's even without the power chord. It's just... frustrating.

If she Qs without AAing the poke is really negligible/easy to negate and if she Qs AND AAs you have plenty of time to retaliate regardless of her using her E, which by the way is expensive to use just for poking early on. Who are you using that you can't respond to her with beyond say, Janna?

A Wild AP SonaAug 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If she Qs without AAing the poke is really negligible/easy to negate and if she Qs AND AAs you have plenty of time to retaliate regardless of her using her E, which by the way is expensive to use just for poking early on. Who are you using that you can't respond to her with beyond say, Janna?

janna outtrades sona by alot because it makes her aa hit hard as fuck her shield makes her immune to sonas power chord and sona can either use it on you and waste the power chord she has been charging the past 2 minutes (resetting any possibility of her hurting your adc) or just simply let you hit her for free
sona has to run from janna no matter what then you just use jannas slow and follow up with 2-3 more aa and you greatly out trade sonas

its just that low elo play janna like a pussy instead of the semi good harasser that she actually is but a good janna will beat a good sona 60% of the time or so

RedCycloneAug 14, 20153 votes

Janna now has a 55% winrate when VS Sona

So much for being Janna's counter, the entire thing has been flipped around, and Sona got nothing for it

OverpoweredSoapAug 14, 20154 votes

It's more so that the picks that are happening right now, are picks Sona doesn't like to go against.

She hates tank/engage supports with a passion and that's sort of what's in right now.

I personally don't think that it's Sona, as it's more so the current meta, you could say.

AbyssphereAug 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

It's more so that the picks that are happening right now, are picks Sona doesn't like to go against.

She hates tank/engage supports with a passion and that's sort of what's in right now.

I personally don't think that it's Sona, as it's more so the current meta, you could say.

She wasn't seen after the rework either, when Lulu and Nami were more popular. And that was before she got nerfed. She's also never chosen as a counterpick to Janna despite being quite strong against her in theory.

1999 01 17Aug 14, 20153 votes

so? sona has a 53% win rate in solo Q. we're not pros, stop acting like what they play affects us.

Edge of DaybreakAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

so? sona has a 53% win rate in solo Q. we're not pros, stop acting like what they play affects us.

THIS RIGHT HERE. THIS IS WHY I DONT GET THE SONA COMPLAINTS! Literally anyone in this thread playing sona has a high chance to win except that guy who has like 4k games on her because he plays at that point where she needs help. But they cant make her good for high elo without most likely making her stupid broken for lower elos.

chipndip1Aug 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

THIS RIGHT HERE. THIS IS WHY I DONT GET THE SONA COMPLAINTS! Literally anyone in this thread playing sona has a high chance to win except that guy who has like 4k games on her because he plays at that point where she needs help. But they cant make her good for high elo without most likely making her stupid broken for lower elos.

Because the pros play good champs and they avoid bad champs. If the pros don't play your champ EVER, it's indication your champ is in a bad spot. Sona's in a bad spot. Crushing Bronze and Silver players (I guess like myself) doesn't exactly change that. Her win rates are inflated against people that don't know how to fight and punish her.

RedCycloneAug 14, 20154 votes

it's almost like there are more bronze-gold players then plat-challenger

Just like how Lee sin/Thresh/Zed/Vayne/Riven maintain a greater cut of a under average winrate, all while they are being played by everyone and their fucking grandma I mean why the fuck would anyone pick a champion who has a 43% winrate, that's fucking stupid right, like signing away the game without even playing, why would we see all these champions all the time in pro play with very high amounts of money and fame involved

chipndip1Aug 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

it's almost like there are more bronze-gold players then plat-challenger

Just like how Lee sin/Thresh/Zed/Vayne/Riven maintain a greater cut of a under average winrate, all while they are being played by everyone and their fucking grandma I mean why the fuck would anyone pick a champion who has a 43% winrate, that's fucking stupid right, like signing away the game without even playing, why would we see all these champions all the time in pro play with very high amounts of money and fame involved

Because there's more bronze-gold players, so they pick good champs and suck with them.

Sona shits on people that don't get how she works. If they DO get it, the game gets significantly more challenging for the Sona player. Just transitioning from mid Silver to Silver I had me learn quickly that I had some bad habits in lane regarding my early level play and positioning, but it took that long to be punished for it consistently enough for me to iron some of that stuff out. I can't imagine the type of struggle a Plat+ Sona player would have to go through.

Besides, a Rioter already stated that balance is based on Plat+ stats and feedback more so than Gold and below, and that's where Sona is rarely seen...Plat and up. All the good players don't pick her. Only average dudes like me do. That says something about Sona as a champ.