@RiotRepertoir, Quinn's Blind and 525 Range

Valor Bot · 2015-10-29T09:01:39.216Z

http://i.imgur.com/7oiWsLC.png" Hi RiotRepertoir, I have a question concerning Quinn's blind and how it relates to her 525 auto-attack range. Here's a snippet taken from Quinn and Valor's AMA--going all the way back to her release in 2013--that I think is relevant: > *Q: - * What was your thought process on putting a Blind on an ADC? And how did you factor in Ranged AD Carries having autoattack disabling skills in the past (Corki's Blind on Phosphorus Bomb and Ezreal's 5 second attack speed debuff on Essence Flux)? > *A: Morello - * In this case, we wanted the blind because we wanted her to have a high dueling potential - in the examples like Corki and Ezreal, they already had strong aspect besides that. In Quinn's case, tradeoffs like 525 range and lack of full-out steroids (plus an ult that requires melee) means we could add a Blind. With Ezreal and Corki, these were things we didn't understand as fully as we do today - and their kits weren't build to contain that type of power fundamentally. Now that Quinn has lost both her blind and melee-oriented abilities through Tag Team, wouldn't it be appropriate to up her AA range by at least 50 units to compensate? Fighting an enemy champion as Quinn oftentimes feels unprofitable because of the fact you have to get so close to them to deal damage, which can mean aggroing their minion wave in the process. And now that her Q has been changed from a damage mitigation tool to a poke/burst ability, all I can think of is how difficult it is going to be to land on long-ranged Champs who can just stay behind their minion wave to deny you from landing your Q on them. Of course, increasing her AA range may not be the only solution to the above problems--you could also experiment with changing Aerial Assault's cast type to a ground-targeted AoE skillshot rather than a linear one that collides with the first unit hit. Or, you could add a conditional range increase, making it so that Harrier grants bonus range for that passive proc auto attack only. All in all, I think she may need some sort of compensation for her shortish range if it was given to her due to the blind in her kit. Then again, I am not a gameplay/balance expert, so this is just my unqualified opinion.

DemaciaClownOct 29, 20151 votes

How much ms does it give?

Unlucky Number7Oct 29, 20151 votes

+130% total movement speed at max rank. that's basically a free homeguard usable from wherever.

xFrostKnightxOct 29, 20151 votes

You cant AA or use abilities while in that form now except for R active dmg (base + total ad. No more hp scaling)

AnidanOct 29, 20151 votes

Alright. I've seen worse. Still looks like an improved Homeguard usable anywhere. Unlike homeguard, if shit gets real you can still leave using Valor's extra speed, reduced though it may be in combat.

X8ViEhkPS0Oct 29, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Alright. I've seen worse. Still looks like an improved Homeguard usable anywhere. Unlike homeguard, if shit gets real you can still leave using Valor's extra speed, reduced though it may be in combat.

Actually taking champion damage ends Tag Team.

xFrostKnightxOct 29, 20151 votes

Yeah this is what makes the Quinn changes questionable. With a 2 second cast it is not an escape, either an engage or lane pushing. (thought engage is questionable too due to her being low ranged squish and R Damage range being short)

But I'm still optimistic they'll make her worth using, it might only be when the siege meta returns but as long as it's viable and not a silly gimmick.

Kitsuki05Oct 30, 20152 votes

how are people saying this is not an escape? Seriously, just ward your lane and 2 seconds is plenty of time to react and fly away.

The QuinndredOct 30, 20153 votes

It's basically a Rek'Sai or Tahm Ult on channel but it doesn't immediately take you out of the fight once the channel is done. All it takes is one minion auto and all of a sudden, you aren't flying anymore, you've wasted some time, and died in the process.

Valor BotOct 30, 20152 votes

Minion damage won't cancel Tag Team.

Unlucky Number7Oct 30, 20151 votes

slows her down a bit but why are you channeling it in the middle of a minion wave?

BoulderoxOct 30, 20151 votes

champion and turret damage will.

HellioningOct 30, 20152 votes

No, but it does cancel the channel.

xFrostKnightxOct 30, 20152 votes

The issue I'm having is Quinn is a short ranged squish champion. Rengar can have the same logic that you can ult out if you ward but the difference is Rengar can 100 - 0 with melee steroids.

Quinn on the other hand cannot 100 -0 (until we see number rework) which isn't likely to happen as she's a ranged champion and they don't get that sort of kit power. Ranged champions also tend to be very squish, so unless you snowball you won't be using R to engage on people.

MetalGearTeemuOct 29, 20158 votes

"Hey did you guys check out HOTS?"

"Yeah that Mount thing was a pretty good idea, lets steal that for our quinn rework"

JedenVojakOct 29, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unlucky Number7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l3b5Rdon,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-29T16:24:58.838+0000)

why does everyone say her ult is useless. it's basically half a homeguard whenever you need it after a 2 second channel. does anyone have ANY idea how powerful that is?

It is powerful but... it's only useful out of combat. If you need to get an immediate speed boost to catch someone, you can't because of the channel time, if you need to escape immediately you can't because everything interrupts it.

It is an "out of battle map traversal utility" only.

I'd rather have the blind.

Karn BishopOct 30, 20151 votes

its a 2 second delay, and if you can't catch someone with a static homeguard buff due to 2 seconds you were not going to catch them anyways, and on the flip side its a 2 second delay less then a 7 second or 4 second baron recall so you could easily kite around and get away given good bush mechanics and juking.

Also half the game takes place out of combat, positioning is a mechanic and a powerful one, i get thats less true the lower in mmr you go but still the game was designed around it.

Super mobility will always trump purely offensive abilities

VermonsterOct 30, 20151 votes

No, mobility with out offense is useless first of all. Second of all I don't think you realized what you just said. If you are chasing and have to stop for 2 seconds before you get your move speed bonus that is a big deal. And if you don't think that will affect a chase you sir are very, very bad at this game. Also if you stop to channel it and they toss a skill shot or turn on you (because you are going full useless) then you don't even get the speed boost. The ults only use is to traverse the map. However all you're going to do is become a source of feed in the mid lane. With the suggested kit I hope every player attempts to play Quinn mid... She will get stomped, over, and over. her only way to survive in lane are quick escapes which you can't do with a 2 second channel, and her blind and threat of damage. She has none of those. I don't want to run around the map and be useless otherwise I would just build movespeed rammus.

JedenVojakOct 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l3b5Rdon,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2015-10-30T07:57:47.804+0000)

its a 2 second delay, and if you can't catch someone with a static homeguard buff due to 2 seconds you were not going to catch them anyways,

If I could have caught her with her current no-delay ult into an execute vault auto combo, then the new ult failed where the old one would have succeeded.

and on the flip side its a 2 second delay less then a 7 second or 4 second baron recall so you could easily kite around and get away given good bush mechanics and juking.

But if I get hit with anything (like say a ranged auto attack), my movespeed is instantly cancelled, and I'm 100 mana shorter, where as the current speed ult applies nigh instantaneously and isn't removed if you're attacked.

Also half the game takes place out of combat, positioning is a mechanic and a powerful one, i get thats less true the lower in mmr you go but still the game was designed around it.

Super mobility will always trump purely offensive abilities

I will say to this what I said about Kassadin after he was nerfed into complete unviability: it doesn't matter if you're super mobile if you can't do anything once you get to wherever you're going. She lost a blind, attack speed steroid, and execute, and all the movement in the world won't make a difference if she does jack squat going wherever she needs to go, unless her new role is to be a mobile ward.

Best Valor NAOct 30, 20152 votes

do you realize how limited the use of it is now. now you can get back to lane quicker, thats not bad. but some people could use it as an escape from a gank or somthing. but now with the 2 second delay you cant. and with taking damage it makes valor take off. i had a feeling they were going to make her ult a toggle ability but this is just disgusting.

Karn BishopOct 30, 20151 votes

The main issue here is the few quinn mains enjoyed an unhealthy mechanic which let them stop their lane opponents with no way to respond for most top laners, so quin mains are upset even though they also got an improved valor model something they have been asking for a while now.

HalcyonDwellerOct 30, 20153 votes

Quinn mains disagree on that actually. My friend liked her for her dueling potential, I liked her for being able to turn into a bird and dive onto enemies. Don't generalize it and trash talk all Quinn mains just because you think they deserve it for sharing their opinions.

I actually agree with you, the blind was an unhealthy mechanic, and was completely non-core to her theme. I'm over the loss of that, but as a Quinn main, I still don't like the other parts of the changes.

We don't all have the same opinion, and we all have a right to each his own. You sir, are on a high horse. Get over yourself.

Karn BishopOct 30, 20151 votes

high horse? lol, the point being is you all are rallying vs it without even trying it out or learning it which is the ultimate high horse attitude ironically.

HalcyonDwellerOct 30, 20152 votes

You need new eyes, and a dictionary.

I said I was disappointed about losing valor, not in the new kit. New kit looks awesome. I just will miss turning into valor.

High-horse: a phrase used to describe a person who is acting superior to their peers.

Karn BishopOct 30, 20151 votes

eh im still right according to the dictionary definition, to be distainful or coneited about something in relation to a person, in this case quinns changes without actually trying them you actively dismiss the rioter team who came up with quinns new style who likely ran though several iterations before coming to this version of her so pretty sure that meets definition.

I perfectly understand you want quinn to be a brawling duelist or assassin, its just not going to happen though and pretending otherwise is silly.

HalcyonDwellerOct 30, 20151 votes

Now there's a straw man fallacy right there, you selectively addressed only the part of my argument you found easy to counter. You put words in my mouth that I never said.

For the last time. I said, I'm looking forwards to the new kit, "just going to miss turning into Valor"

You even used the wrong definition of high horse. It is most commonly used as follows: "High Horse - Arrogantly believing oneself superior to others, often by putting down large groups of people." This is exactly what you're doing.

You also mis-quoted me by the implication, "you actively dismiss the rioter team..." Stop lumping me and every other Quinn main together in the same boat. We all have differing opinions, some felt more strongly than others.

I haven't insulted a RIOTer even once while discussing Quinn changes. And I never claimed to be better than them. So your straw man argument wasn't even correct. Where is your Irony now?

The existence of the less reasonable posts does not make the reasonable posts any less valid. Stop dismissing others' ideas just because you have your own opinions, You aren't more or less right than anybody else. It is rude and unhelpful to attempt to invalidate discussions like these. What you just said basically equates to, 'it's just not going to happen, and you're silly for having an opinion about it' which serves no other purpose than to place your own opinion on a pedestal above others and put them down.

There are reasonable ways to express your opinions, you are just choosing to not use them, and instead of making progress, you make fights. So I'll repeat myself, get over yourself. And get off the high horse.

VermonsterOct 30, 20151 votes

^ Exactly how I feel. I wan't her old ult back and her old w passive. get rid of the blind and give me the proc for all i care, but this new ult. Bleh. Just seems like its going to be bad and cripple her play style.

HalcyonDwellerOct 30, 20151 votes

Perhaps it could be crippling, it definitely will make it harder for her to dive in on an enemy. It's going to mean a new playstyle for Quinn, one that is more defined and focused.

The movement speed out of combat is definitely strong in its own way, I just wish it weren't at the cost of turning into Valor.

VermonsterOct 30, 20151 votes

I think its going to do exactly the opposite. Its not going to be more defined and focused because they designed her to be a mid lane lvl 6 roamer but shes going to get wrecked in that lane. She can't keep up with any of the other adc. That leaves us with Quinn top lane again except now she can't pick fights as easily bc every other champ top lane is gonna hit a power spike lvl 6 and quinn lvl 6 gets 2 second delay to homegaurd

HalcyonDwellerOct 30, 20151 votes

It increases her ability to rotate lanes, or roam to gank. That is highlighting the roaming and map control at the cost of not being able to dive in on enemies. I am not happy about the cost either, but we ought to keep our logic clean. It is defining her as more of a roamer / map control character.

Have you tried her mid? Currently her mid laning isn't terrible, and after the rework she should have more tools to perform with. Being able to trigger the passive mark more reliably is quite a buff.

SulghunterOct 30, 20155 votes

Annie Passive, instant cast ult/aoe stun DrMundo What damage? Ekko Lol, you have to kill me twice Fiora Riposte Fizz Need I say more? Heimerdinger I hope you know how to last hit under tower. Irelia You're winning? Let me stun you for so long, that Morgana gets jealous. Jax What auto-attacks? Oh, and here's a stun for your troubles. Leblanc That was a champion? Not a minion? Malphite &%$ AD top laners. Just look at past board threads. It looked cool when Ekko does it. ...... 1v5, still doesn't die. Yellow card #&%! Vladimir ...... Yasuo Wind Wall

As the preponderance of evidence shows, Quinn's Q, is by far, NOT the most unhealthy or unfair ability known to the board. Even with Teemo's Q, it's point and click, whilst Quinn's blind is a skill shot, which means it can be whiffed. That, and is Gnar as annoying, if not more so, than Quinn? Tanky, loads of CC, and can kite most top laners for days in mini form while still dealing large amounts of damage, the first two, Quinn does not have much of, if at all.

Karn BishopOct 30, 20153 votes

So let me get this straight, your argument for keeping an unhealthy mechanic is because other unhealthy mechanics exist? thats just foolish logic, if one is to clear a forest there must be a tree that gets chopped down first, heck quin isn't even the first tree.

kJsOct 30, 20152 votes

Then why did you not relate or even hint at all the other champion's unhealthy mechanics? Your comment seemed biased.

Karn BishopOct 30, 20153 votes

because its pointless? why would i let you draw me into a straw man debate? it doesn't matter what else is broken, fixing one broken skill at a time is ok, its marksman season so quins up first.

kJsOct 30, 20153 votes

Not pointless, you could have avoided the these series of posts if you had seemed more reasonable.

HalcyonDwellerOct 30, 20152 votes

One cannot be "drawn into a straw man debate" in the manner you suggested here. The other players did not even mis-quote you.

Straw man arguments are based on mis-quotes, with the intent of making the opposition sound like they argue poorly. For example if I were to say, "you suggested that x is a problem, here's why you're wrong..." Where x has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The more I see your comments in this thread the more I am beginning to think you are just a salty kid who lost a lane to Quinn and are taking it out on people instead of learning from it.

SulghunterOct 30, 20151 votes

What I am saying is that all of those champions are strong because of, if only partly so, "unhealthy" or "unfair" abilities. If Riot made every champ "fair", then all of the champions would be boring, and would make the whole game just a stat check between two groups.

Let me ask you a question. Would you play a champion that was balanced to be fair, and allow opportunities of counter-play to the opponent, or would you rather play a champion that had as little counter-play at all, to maximize your chances of winning?

Karn BishopOct 30, 20152 votes

Thats an easy one balanced with counterplay and outplay potential, because beating your opponent due to your own skill is just more enjoyable. its not even a question really.

SulghunterOct 30, 20151 votes

Allow me to rephrase my question more specifically. Would you rather play Cassiopeia or Leblanc in mid lane?

Karn BishopOct 30, 20151 votes

Neither, i play up front jungler bruisers/ assassins.

When irelia gets reworked eventually as well i fully expect these same thread types to pop up, rito pls don't remove our win when losing super hard button cus we made a mistake!

HalcyonDwellerOct 30, 20152 votes

That's avoiding the question. Are you avoiding the question because you realize Sulghuter has a point?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I do not think that we should keep one-sided or unbalanced things in the game, even if they do provide strengths that other champions don't have. I personally believe that it is best to create unique playstyles which should be the reasons that draw players in to pick those champions, not some strength that is innately stronger.

kJsOct 30, 20153 votes

I don't think that's the point. It's a drastic gameplay rework. Quinn is less unique now that Valor is almost gone from combat.

We loved her duelling potential.

Noctius28Oct 30, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unlucky Number7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l3b5Rdon,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-29T16:24:58.838+0000)

why does everyone say her ult is useless. it's basically half a homeguard whenever you need it after a 2 second channel. does anyone have ANY idea how powerful that is?

what's the point of being anywhere if you're just gonna die and feed when you get there? Plus even minions can interrupt both the channel and the effect with a single attack as far as I understood

@RiotRepertoir, Quinn's Blind and 525 Range

58 Comments

More from Gameplay

More by Valor Bot