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@Riot: Any chance we can tune Leona outside of support?

Slamurai Jack··57 votes·3,262 views

I love Leona; she's one of my favorite champions in the game and I even enjoy her enough to play her support even though it's a role I don't normally play. However, I also like to play her top and occasionally jungle, and frankly, she's not very good at either. She's certainly playable at either position but she's basically a cheese pick that can't compete with meta champs from a raw stats perspective. However, she's actually not far off from being viable in those roles. And honestly, I see no reason why she can't be seriously viable in those roles without making her broken as a support. All she would really need is slightly better base AS, slightly more AD growth per level, slightly increased attack range, and some extra waveclear/jungle clear power, perhaps with Eclipse dealing bonus damage to minions and monsters. And honestly, you could probably make all of these changes without buffing support Leona much at all, although you could probably justify a very minor nerf to Sunlight should these buffs go through. Lulu, Zilean, Tahm, Nautilus, Morgana, Karma, Zyra, and Alistar are all supports and also viable solo laners, so why not Leona? Hell, she was even played as a solo laner for part of her champion spotlight back in the day, so solo lane Leona was clearly an intended thing in the beginning. So why not now?

94 Comments

Madra17 votes

If they buff her damage, two patches down the road, they'll strip out her defense and reduce her CC. She's fine the way she is. Her shield resets her auto attack and you can build a titanic to do it a second time. She doesn't need increased attack speed. If you want to improve Leona's attack speed, attack damage, wave clear and take advantage of her four AP ratios, just build a rageblade; it's ridiculously overpowered and gpes for only 2800 gold.

NichtHurz3 votes

I think if they would enable her to proc her passive on minions and monsters (not champs) by herself it would help her waveclear and jungle speed without giving her any unnecessary power in bot lane (besides a few easier relic procs).

JVP155 votes

I love Leona. Leona is my main. The only problem is, she is a great support and has a ton of utility, but without specific changes, she could become overwhelming bot lane. She already does a fair amount of damage early level, so unless you want higher scaling late game, she might be a bit too strong. That is kinda countered by the fact that there are really no tanky AP items barring rod, the masky thingy, and Rylias, which now that I think about it, is kinda enough. As much as I want an AD bruiser Leona with Hydra, I feel like it is just not to be, unless it can be balanced properly because if it gets imbalanced, rito will nerf her into the ground. AND I DON'T WANT THAT!

TeCoolMage2 votes

Thresh Soraka Annie Velkoz Brand : I'm sorry, what is this late game - early game concept you're trying to sell to me. I don't think i can understand.

alfavhunter4 votes

How to give her 1v1 without breaking her

If Leona passive is on a target and she reapplied the passive with an ability then she gains a shield for 50% of the damage her passive would have done if proced by an ally for 3 seconds

This leads a full Q W E combo to giving her 100% of the damage as a shield

This increases her ability to trade and survive alone but doesn't increase her damage My his would make her better at top and jungle while still making her want to slightly time out her abilities as a support for more damage on the enemy because as a support her goal isn't for her to survive, it's for her adc to survive and get the kills

ChaoticPinecone7 votes

Except then her support would be broken. How many leonas are allowed to E (wait for ADC to auto), W (wait for ADC to auto), Q (wait for ADC to auto)? While it might maximize damage, you dont wait to apply your CC if you have the option to lock down the enemy (especially if they have a dash like Lucian or Ezreal or have flash up).

Generally at least two of her spells overlap, whether it be the E-Q or E-W.

alfavhunter3 votes

It's a way to give her solo lane without overbidding her support role

She is a tank and is meant to survive so I chose to have it five more survival

The % value can be tuned to be changed based on how many allied champions are nearby (aka no nearby ally champions would give best effect, similar to kha isolation but for ally champions )

It could be a 50% reduction in shield value per allied champion nearby meaning not lane it's half as effective (and since adc procs at least one stack of passive it's 25% as effective)

Or the shield could be only for when she is without a nearby allied champion

There are ways to tune it so it works without the unwanted side effects

Zarkkast3 votes

They should just make her passive useful to herself and not just allies.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

I would rather they didn't because she honestly doesn't need it to 1v1 people much of the time. I understand why her passive works the way it does; it increases Leona's skillcap by encouraging you to time your skills with allies in rapid succession to get as many sunlight procs as possible. It also forces her to have a teammates around to do really serious damage without damage items, which is an intended weakness of the champion and one I agree she should have. And honestly, she can handle 1v1's without it, provided you're actually building combat stats. I don't have any problem with her passive having no use when alone; neither does Zileans and he's a perfectly fine mid laner.

JQKAndrei3 votes

Leona should be a fighter imo, at least her sword would actually hurt.

Hellioning3 votes

Yes, I would love for Leona to become popular in solo lanes, then nerfed to the point where she can't support.

Our champ pool isn't low enough as is.

La Barbotte3 votes

believe it or not she was meant to be a solo laner at her release

HandheldBrandon2 votes

She was always designed to be a support in a duo lane.

Her passive literally does not function without another character to proc it.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

believe it or not she was meant to be a solo laner at her release

I've heard that before, but not even Riot would give that passive to a solo laner.

Or did she release with a different passive?

La Barbotte1 votes

i honestly forgot if she did or not, maybe she released being able to proc it herself but i legit cant remember

Andrionar2 votes

No buff will make her viable elswhere, only a rework could change it.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

She's already borderline viable as it is. She has a 44% winrate as both a top laner and jungler, which, while not amazing, is definitely playable. It wouldn't take much at all to nudge her into being a meta pick in either position. Having her jungle clear be slightly faster and her dueling prowess slightly stronger would easily be enough.

Andrionar3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l2nE5nXl,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-02-17T18:14:46.689+0000)

She's already borderline viable as it is. She has a 44% winrate as both a top laner and jungler, which, while not amazing, is definitely playable. It wouldn't take much at all to nudge her into being a meta pick in either position. Having her jungle clear be slightly faster and her dueling prowess slightly stronger would easily be enough.

What I wanted to say that her kit doesn't let her go elswhere. Like for example, you can cary with jungle Leona, but her jungle clearing speed isn't good. And as you said, she isn't good duelist, but pretty near one.

If riot would make her viable demage wise, she would be to op, becouse of cc she can offer, would make her unbalanced.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

That's why I proposed making her W do bonus damage to monsters. It wouldn't make her clears amazing but it would make them at least palatable. And she's honestly not that bad of a duelist already; she already outduels a fair number of meta top laners as it is. Frankly, there's nothing about her kit that "disallows" her from playing either role, only that the numbers are slightly too weak to support her in those roles compared to meta champs. Tune those numbers and Leona could easily play either role no problem. Compare that to Soraka or Sona who could never jungle without extremely drastic changes.

As for making her OP by making her viable damage wise, that certainly didn't stop them on Nautilus who has basically the same skillset as Leona while also having high enough damage to be a viable LCS top laner. If Nautilus gets to top lane, then Leona should honestly be able to top lane too.

MiTsuO Akai2 votes

She needs her passive.. That's all... IT'S TIME FOR THE SUN TO COME OUT!!!

DELI MEATS2 votes

As a Leo main, I'd love to be able to use her elsewhere. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

LVL 5 PORO2 votes

Not gonna happen.

Uj3h2v7XNZ2 votes

Leona is already one of the strongest supports in the game in early levels. Mostly in low elo, but that's still more than enough. We don't need a 60% win rate support when the game already has a problem with people taking insane early game AP champs as support, like Brand.

Mandaari2 votes

Allow her to pop her own passive on neutral monsters and call it a day.

MiTsuO Akai1 votes

OR... OR.. ORRRRRRR!! We could just let HER use her OWN PASSIVE on CHAMPIONS!!! WOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW!!!

Mandaari3 votes

Part of the appeal of Leona is that she is strong with someone else. Giving her Lux's passive (better, since other allies can proc it) kind of takes away from that appeal in order to make her able to lay down solo DPS. That's not Leona's style.

Lintu Puck2 votes

check her lore she is more dedicated to Protection in the sense of "Ya I don't want to kill you just because this ancient ritual of our people says I should." Plus she is listed as Tank/Support, and she was designed as such. Sure she can dish the damage if built right, but she was mainly designed to Tank for her team, and CC enemies so her team can jump and crush the target, or CC the enemy so her team can escape.

Jabberwöcky2 votes

Listen, i played leona last season, as my main champion. Gold 3 average.

I had 100ish games with her, 73% win rate, all in support.

Majority of the time i could 1v2 with my adc feeding.

In the hands of a "good leona" any ad/base damage buff on her Q/E would turn her into a CC brute.

LatetotheRace2 votes

No, braum needs a friend. item 3073 Braum item 3073 Forever Alone.

OR together forever! Braum Leona

NightOfLight1 votes

Problem with this is that jungle braum can become a thing so unless leona can do the same they cant be together.

Unstoppable Monk3 votes

Braum summoner 12 summoner 11 Leona summoner 12 summoner 11

Double jungle!

LatetotheRace1 votes

JG Braum has even weaker gank potential than Leona does. It's like if WW would try to gank without any Movement speed.

ADepressedLeona2 votes

Leona is fine where she is, if Leona were ever taken out of the support role, her tankyness or engage would be nerfed (Especially if she went jungle.) Not every champion needs to be Kayle in the sense that they can go everywhere.

A lot of these posts I see don't seem to stop and think "Is Leona currently underpowered and in actual need of change changes?" The answer to that is no, Leona is fine where she is. Leona doesn't need to be changed just for the sake of "going different places"

Slamurai Jack1 votes

{quoted}

Leona is fine where she is, if Leona were ever taken out of the support role, her tankyness or engage would be nerfed (Especially if she went jungle.)

I very highly doubt they would considering that Nautilus exists and is both a dominant top laner and serviceable jungler to go along with being a support. And I don't see any Nautilus nerfs on the pbe, so Riot must be ok with it for now.

And you're right, she isn't underpowered and doesn't need changes. She's a perfectly viable support atm. But there's honestly no good reason to restrict her from playing other roles when other, similar champions do the same exact things. Why do Naut and Tahm get to be a support, jungler and top laner and Leona only a support? Give me a real answer.

ADepressedLeona2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l2nE5nXl,comment-id=00200000,timestamp=2016-02-18T11:15:16.539+0000)

I very highly doubt they would considering that Nautilus exists and is both a dominant top laner and serviceable jungler to go along with being a support. And I don't see any Nautilus nerfs on the pbe, so Riot must be ok with it for now.

And you're right, she isn't underpowered and doesn't need changes. She's a perfectly viable support atm. But there's honestly no good reason to restrict her from playing other roles when other, similar champions do the same exact things. Why do Naut and Tahm get to be a support, jungler and top laner and Leona only a support? Give me a real answer.

First off, Naut is in a bad spot anyways, and has a higher win rate as support than top or jungle. Second, while Naut does have a lot of CC, Leona has a good 150 range on him (Naut's Q+R= 1955 and Leona's R+E= 2075) Making her ganks scarier. On top of that, Leona's ult has a much lower CD than Naut's, making her ganks even more scarier. As far as your "real" answer, Tahm was broken as fuck and just did what he wanted, he was also designed around his whole "eat people" theme and Riot didn't really have a role assigned to him. And Naut was primary made to be a jungler, but it just so happens that a ton of CC is good for bot lane too.

The only other role I can see Leona feasibly existing in, without having to change her too much, is top. But even that would require a few changes and it would likely wipe support Leona from existence.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

{quoted}

First off, Naut is in a bad spot anyways, and has a higher win rate as support than top or jungle.

Wtf are you talking about? Naut top has a 54.5% winrate atm and is being picked regularly in competitive play in every region. Why do you think I kept using him as an example? Naut top is completely busted right now and the fact that he's allowed be a dominant top laner while also being a top tier support and Leona is pigeonholed into support is a travesty. It wouldn't be hard to make Leona viable top lane; I've already outlined potential changes in the OP that would make her a plenty viable top laner while having a minimal effect on her support role. And she's probably still be worse at it than Nautilus is because Naut's ult is more reliable.

ADepressedLeona1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l2nE5nXl,comment-id=0020000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-18T12:01:18.140+0000)

Wtf are you talking about? Naut top has a 54.5% winrate atm and is being picked regularly in competitive play in every region. Why do you think I kept using him as an example? Naut top is completely busted right now and the fact that he's allowed be a dominant top laner while also being a top tier support and Leona is pigeonholed into support is a travesty. It wouldn't be hard to make Leona viable top lane; I've already outlined potential changes in the OP that would make her a plenty viable top laner while having a minimal effect on her support role. And she's probably still be worse at it than Nautilus is because Naut's ult is more reliable.

The site I used said his support win rate was higher. My bad, but even still. I cannot see a way she would ever be taken out of the support role without receiving nerfs that make her what she is, a true, hard to kill, CC heavy tank. As some one above me said, if she was taken out of support, her defenses and engage would be stripped.

There's an old saying that goes "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Ràinbow1 votes

I would honestly love for Leona to be a solo laner. I love female characters that can really hold their own (i.e. Sejuani, Diana and Leona to name a few)

MiTsuO Akai1 votes

Quinn

dangopee1 votes

After they tune Vi out of jungle only.

Unstoppable Monk3 votes

Vi is already tuned out.

It's called all the laners are feeding.

KrugLyfe1 votes

I love janna; she's one of my favorite champions in the game and i even enjoy her enough to play her support even though it's a role i don't normally play. However i also like to play her mid and occasionally jungle, and frankly, she's not very good at either. She's certainly playable at either position but she's basically a cheese pick that can't compete with meta champs from a raw stats perspective. However, she's actually not far off from being viable in those roles. And honestly, I see no reason why she can't be seriously viable in those roles without making her broken as a support. All she would really need is slightly better base AP and slightly more AP growth per level, slightly increased aa range, and some extra waveclear/jungle clear power, perhaps with zephyr dealing bonus damage to minions and monsters. And honestly you could probably make all of these changes without buffing support Janna much at all, although you could probably justify a very minor nerf to howling gale should these buffs go through. Lulu,Zilean,Tahm,Nautilis,Morgana,Karma,Zyra and Allistar are all supports and also viable solo laners, so why not Janna? Hell, she was even played as a solo laner for part of her champion spotlight back in the day, so solo lane Janna was clearly an intended thing in thing in the beginning. So why not now?

ValyrianBlade1 votes

No champion gets base AP or AP per level. Nice try though.

Also, just for kicks, increasing melee Leona's AA range wouldn't break her as a support since she still can't harass with it (although I don't understand why she needs it for jungle...). Increasing Janna's AA range would however break her as a support (since she's a ranged attacker, and her shield improves her auto attacks).

Also fairly confident Janna isn't "playable at either position" in the sense he meant, which is to say not going to make your allies dodge 99% of the time.

KrugLyfe1 votes

Just wanted the OP to see how ridiculous he sounds he even said alistar is a good solo laner lol alistar is shit outside of support unless you're facing players who are absolute garbage you won't do anything there are support champions leona is one of them and she needs to stay there.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Honestly, I feel like I saw Alistar top in a diamond or pro game recently. I don't remember where. Maybe the OP saw the same one and can provide a link.

I agree that alistar wasn't a great comparison unless there is a link to share... but that doesn't defeat the point.

Buff to leona: Can proc her own passive on jungle monsters instantly. Can proc it on enemy champions after a delay. She'd probably be viable in the other roles and it wouldn't change anything about her support.

The better question to ask is if we want Leona to be viable in other roles. I'd like to see her top lane to be honest. I wouldn't want to see her jungle as those ganks would be way too strong.

KrugLyfe1 votes

Dyrus did a alistar top game on his stream i believe he also did a blitz crank one lol but yeah I want leona to stay support if she were to go top you would have to sit under your turret all day because if her jungler has a little bit of cc the gank is inescapable.

Bodkins Odds1 votes

Yes, no champion at all. Viktor

ValyrianBlade2 votes

Correct, no champion at all.

Viktor does not have base AP or AP per level. He does however have an item unique to himself that gives these stats. That item, however, takes up an item slot and is upgraded by spending gold as you would purchase other items. A very unique item, but nonetheless he still doesn't have base AP or AP per level.

Galio would be a much better argument... as he does have base MR and MR per level and a passive that converts MR to AP. However that still isn't really the same thing. That AP is not "base AP", it's bonus AP that he gains through base stats.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I'm not sure what your point is, other than to attempt to make a mockery of my point by making a false parallel.

SwiftKitten881 votes

any chance we can tuneNidalee back into her previous three roles as top, mid, and support.

letting her jungle is one thing but taking away THREE roles to let her do it is beyond stupid

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