Should Thornmail apply grevious wounds again?

YoungFarmer·Nov 19, 2016·3 votes·1,104 views

There are so many things that ADCs have that heal them, Warlords and vampirism for masteries and then .

22 Comments

OglafNov 19, 20163 votes

Yes. Make Thornmail Great Again (instead of a waste of gold as it is now).

YoungFarmerNov 19, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Yes. Make Thornmail Great Again (instead of a waste of gold as it is now).

I honestly just find it mildy annoying how item 3036 literally makes all of these item 3742 item 3143 item 3068 item 3075 item 3110 item 3025 way way less effective and it costs almost nothing, and has decent AD stats. I enjoy playing juggs and find it severly difficult mostly due to the fact, you don't build enough armor you die, you don't build enough damage and you're useless, but you honestly need to stack atleast 3 armor items to even have mild sustain against ad. meanwhile to counter a strong AP you litterally need item 3111 item 3156 and none of them barely hurt you.

OglafNov 19, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Senpai Adam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l0sAZzgx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-11-19T03:10:30.294+0000)

I honestly just find it mildy annoying how literally makes all of these way way less effective and it costs almost nothing, and has decent AD stats. I enjoy playing juggs and find it severly difficult mostly due to the fact, you don't build enough armor you die, you don't build enough damage and you're useless, but you honestly need to stack atleast 3 armor items to even have mild sustain against ad. meanwhile to counter a strong AP you litterally need and none of them barely hurt you.

That's because there really isn't any tanking in LoL.

What there is being beefy to the point where you can live long enough to apply hard CC so your friends can kill whatever is trying to kill you.

[zombie-brand-clap]

{quoted}

no it shouldn't thornmail really shouldn't be a good item at all - ADCs are supposed to be able to kill tanks. As it is, thornmail already verges on demolishing intended core class interactions - if it were actually as good as tank players wish it was, ADCs who aren't Vayne might as well never even try to attack a tank.

if you think ADC lifesteal is too strong right now, that's a valid complaint, but buffing thornmail of all things isn't the solution to that

Just friggin' delete Thornmail then. If tanks aren't supposed to be able to stand up against ADCs (I disagree strongly with that) then why is it even a thing? There's literally only one Champion that could possibly use it and that is Rammus - but not because it makes him tankier, but because it is a way to fuel his Armour-based Passive and abilities.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 19, 20163 votes

item 3036 2700 gold item 3075 2350

45% bonus armor pen , 100 armor

leaving you with 55 bonus armor (not including runes masteries etc )

and lets say you are Malphite who gets 92 base armor at lvl 18

so 55 armor *whats left after 45% reduction * + 92 = 147 effective armor... ( not including his passive increasing armor by 30% , runes (typically +9 armor ) masteries) or any other armor item he buys

AnonagonNov 19, 20162 votes

no it shouldn't thornmail really shouldn't be a good item at all - ADCs are supposed to be able to kill tanks. As it is, thornmail already verges on demolishing intended core class interactions - if it were actually as good as tank players wish it was, ADCs who aren't Vayne might as well never even try to attack a tank.

if you think ADC lifesteal is too strong right now, that's a valid complaint, but buffing thornmail of all things isn't the solution to that

Insanity SongNov 19, 20162 votes

Kill tanks yes 3 shot them? no no

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 19, 20162 votes

you do realize that lifesteal is negated by reduction of physical damage...

your armor reduces physical damage taken , lifesteal is a % of damage dealt returned back as hp...

the more armor you have the more physical damage reduction you have therefore the less damage they do therefore lowering the amount of healing they get from lifesteal.

WhiperSnapersNov 19, 20162 votes

you're missing the point...** thornmail does more than just negate damage, it reflects damage. This is about how easy it is for lifesteal to negate the reflected damage** (thornmail's passive), not how lifesteal is proportionate to armor. We are ONLY focused on how to improve thornmail's Passive.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 19, 20162 votes

it cost 2350 gold ... gives 100 armor .. is a very situational item... and if you are in the situation it needs to be bought in game... then you need more then thornmail oh btw THE MORE ARMOR YOU BUILD THE BETTER THE REFLECTED DAMAGE. AND IT STILL NEGATES LIFESTEAL DUE TO REDUCING THE AMOUNT OF PHYSICAL DAMAGE YOU TAKE.

100 armor is the highest in the game of ANY ITEM

there is nothing wrong with thornmail. or its passive... whats wrong is the mindset that thornmail should be bought more then it is needed.

if you were to add any of these items with thornmail it will be way more effective

item 3742 item 3047 item 3143 item 3068 item 3110

or any other item that increases your hp makes it strong due to having more hp with armor

item 3083 item 3053 and any armor item helps the passive of thornmail

item 3105 item 3025

Sona PingNov 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

you're missing the point...** thornmail does more than just negate damage, it reflects damage. This is about how easy it is for lifesteal to negate the reflected damage** (thornmail's passive), not how lifesteal is proportionate to armor. We are ONLY focused on how to improve thornmail's Passive.

_ " Armor counters Lifesteal already. Thornmail passive effectively counters lifesteal by percentage damage reflection which is not only a greater percentage than all lifesteal items except Bloodthirster (maybe) but additionally deals damage back on every attack. It works against lifesteal in three ways already. _

_Now correct my quick math if I am wrong, but a 2 item adc attacking with 184 AD AAs against a level 12 Nautilus with Thornmail and no other defensive items, will take 68.45 damage per hit while they heal a total of about 7 from their Vamp Scepter (10% lifesteal, the most common amount.)." _

WhiperSnapersNov 19, 20161 votes

Now correct my quick math if I am wrong, but a 2 item adc attacking with 184 AD AAs against a level 12 Nautilus with Thornmail and no other defensive items, will take 68.45 damage per hit while they heal a total of about 7 from their Vamp Scepter (10% lifesteal, the most common amount.).

thats incredibly unrealistic... no one buys thornmail's first item except maybe rammus (but thats not always the case) and by the time that they do, the adc has completed the bloodthirster because item 3153 item 3812 are highly uncommon for the average adc. And dont forget that the masteries and beginning items item 1083 item 1055 which some people dont sell right away. One last thing... did your calculations include armor pen or whatever they're calling it now? because last time I checked it's pretty standard for marksmen, even if they dont buy it they still get it from runes/masteries which means they can have it at the very begining of the game.

Sona PingNov 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

thats incredibly unrealistic...

That's exactly the point! The point you missed.

Even at it's worst with no other armor items, in a situation that no normal player who understands the game would create: Thornmail out damages lifesteal by nearly 10x the amount. Never mind the crappy item 1083 , even doubling the amount of lifesteal, 14 < 68.45.

{quoted}

This is about how easy it is for lifesteal to negate the reflected damage (thornmail's passive),

HildebrandNov 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l0sAZzgx,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2016-11-19T09:57:00.201+0000)

_ " Armor counters Lifesteal already. Thornmail passive effectively counters lifesteal by percentage damage reflection which is not only a greater percentage than all lifesteal items except Bloodthirster (maybe) but additionally deals damage back on every attack. It works against lifesteal in three ways already. _

_Now correct my quick math if I am wrong, but a 2 item adc attacking with 184 AD AAs against a level 12 Nautilus with Thornmail and no other defensive items, will take 68.45 damage per hit while they heal a total of about 7 from their Vamp Scepter (10% lifesteal, the most common amount.)." _

Um... faulty math?

While it is true that a 184 AD marksman will DEAL 68.405^ dmg per hit, they will only take around 33 damage from Thornmail and will heal 7, assuming that they have 10% lifesteal, which yes, is the most common ADCs are also likely to have Doran's Blade adding another 2 healing or so on hit, unless they have the Cull item in which it is 3. So they are essentially healing about 9.5 Hp per hit and taking 33, however, when you factor in abilities and that most are not considered On-hits or Autos, the ADC will most likely kill the tank before themselves. Of course this is assuming that the tank does not retaliate, shield or heal in this time. in that case an equally skilled and leveled tank will win. unfortunately however, the reality is that the ADC will most likely have some other variables of support, (a Supp or BotRK for instance.) in this case, the ADC will likely annihilate a tank.

Then we turn to the diminishing return on the passive bonus Armour added to the damage of thornmail, which, as the ADC gets stronger and stronger will actually be less and less effective. most likely this is what people feel makes Thornmail as being ineffective or a bad pick, as the gold value of it, while pretty well matched early will actually diminish in value to below that of cost as the game progresses.

tl;dr Check yo math fool.

Sona PingNov 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Um... faulty math?

While it is true that a 184 AD marksman will DEAL 68.405^ dmg per hit, they will only take around 33 damage from Thornmail and will heal 7, assuming that they have 10% lifesteal, which yes, is the most common ADCs are also likely to have Doran's Blade adding another 2 healing or so on hit, unless they have the Cull item in which it is 3. So they are essentially healing about 9.5 Hp per hit and taking 33, however, when you factor in abilities and that most are not considered On-hits or Autos, the ADC will most likely kill the tank before themselves. Of course this is assuming that the tank does not retaliate, shield or heal in this time. in that case an equally skilled and leveled tank will win. unfortunately however, the reality is that the ADC will most likely have some other variables of support, (a Supp or BotRK for instance.) in this case, the ADC will likely annihilate a tank.

Then we turn to the diminishing return on the passive bonus Armour added to the damage of thornmail, which, as the ADC gets stronger and stronger will actually be less and less effective. most likely this is what people feel makes Thornmail as being ineffective or a bad pick, as the gold value of it, while pretty well matched early will actually diminish in value to below that of cost as the game progresses.

tl;dr Check yo math fool.

1 . You don't add variables when testing things and not to unrelated tests; it muddies or flat out invalidates the results. You especially don't add variables to try to get the result you want. 2 . Two item ADCs don't have 100 Magic Resist. 3 . You take the time to learn to read before insulting someone's intelligence so you don't make stupid mistakes like confusing what number is Thornmail's damage.

Check yourself, fool.

HildebrandNov 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l0sAZzgx,comment-id=00020000000100010000,timestamp=2016-11-20T03:50:10.114+0000)

1 . You don't add variables when testing things and not to unrelated tests; it muddies or flat out invalidates the results. You especially don't add variables to try to get the result you want. 2 . Two item ADCs don't have 100 Magic Resist. 3 . You take the time to learn to read before insulting someone's intelligence so you don't make stupid mistakes like confusing what number is Thornmail's damage.

Check yourself, fool.

"Account for all variables in testing, or in a vacuum environment", which this isn't, otherwise balancing would be a simple algebra problem and you know it.
tf you getting 200 MR from? You high as shit.
Actually, you created a separate clause in your sentence, you know, using a comma and all; go back to school before you call someone else stupid, mate. If you wanted to indicate the Nautilis is taking 68.504 damage you don't put it in a separate clause with a non possessive noun, because that's how English works.
Stop being so salty, I called out either your bad math or your bad grammar, take your pick. (I also used obviously incongruant language to distinguish between my serious analysis and the sardonic humor, but apparently you can't read context either.) Don't act like I shit down your chimney on Christmas.

**EDIT: **Oh, also, if you didn't notice I actually used variable as they are want to happen in a real situation, you know bridging the gap between a simulation and results. You know, the kind of thing an analyst is supposed to do when predicting outcomes, otherwise you get a whole democratic party apathy elects trump situation on your hands. Assuming raw datum can be converted into accurate simulations is how you crash the stock market don't you know.

Which, by the by, I included the realities of a tank at level 12 being by themselves, (most likely being jungle or Top,) and an ADC most likely being accompanied by their handler, (which, let's be honest is exactly what the support role really is.)

then, using these probabilities, assuming that there aren't any outstanding variables that absolutely cannot be accounted for, (player skill, vision, model block, etc.) I made a conclusion based upon it. Not really the way I would actually like it to go but you just assumed because I disagreed with your math that I obviously disagreed with your point, a logical fallacy and perplexing ego issue all rolled into one.

Oh yeah, Thornmail is pretty good aginst vayne rn, and that makes me happy. It's fine how it is.

ThePartyLeaderNov 19, 20162 votes

Should just prevent life steal from the person who has it

Insanity SongNov 19, 20161 votes

That works plus it doesn't fuck up the Adc as much as GW would

MerbstromNov 19, 20161 votes

~~You do know that because it applies spell effects, if you buy~~ item 3165 ~~ it will apply grievous wounds~~. Edit: Apparently it doesn't apply spell effects checked the wiki and tested in game. I must have been thinking of rammus or annie shield or something.

WhiperSnapersNov 19, 20161 votes

but who buys that combination of items? item 3165 + item 3075 woud be an unrealistic build path even for Rammus who can build some AP

MerbstromNov 19, 20161 votes

~~I've seen that on~~ Amumu , Alistar , Blitzcrank , Chogath , Galio , Malphite , Warwick (AP ww is kinda troll), Taric .

ignore me, I'm dumb.

MerbstromNov 19, 20161 votes

But does item 3075 's passive really need improvement? I do agree that most tanks overall feel kinda squishy right now when an adc buys any armour pen, but you shouldn't default to a rock paper scissors argument. The whole point of thornmail is to make it either risky to damage a tank, or deal damage on taunts. Sure you can change the numbers but it still does those things. And as far as it's effectiveness in game just having it isn't enough. Since it's a reflective item it's entire worth is dependent on when you complete it. If they already have armour pen lifesteal and mr then it's not going to do much. But if they are missing one of those things it should do plenty, and now the damage is premitigated and scales with armour so technically it's an improvement to rush the item if you need too.

Sir FuzziNov 19, 20161 votes

No, because it'll still be a nuanced and hard-pressed buy. It's just that now it'll have GW on it, meaning that a tank is responsible for grabbing it if nobody else gets GW.

If we give tanks GW, let's make an item for it. If we change Thornmail, let's push it toward overall usability rather than tacking more nuanced uses onto it. It should feel more like an option, and less like a response. Or if it's to be pushed as a response then define the response (anti-AA) rather than attempting to aim the purpose (anti-ADC sustain).