Riot your matchmaking is actually a joke

General Esdeath ·Oct 8, 2019·2 votes·2,779 views

Decided to have a nice game of ranked flex (I know, flex amirite? What a meme), and I came across a VERY interesting game, like, I thought I was playing with actual bots. Nobody spoke, nobody seemed to play with any strategy except Morgana, and the other 3 were a premade. And I did some digging and my God Riot, what kinda joke is this?

This is my team (the premade, not counting Morgana, who was silver 2)

https://i.imgur.com/PT6f5Eo.png

Wanna know my ranked flex rank? Gold 3. Now I know what you're thinking. "Dude you just suck, you probably deserve to play with bronze players." Yeah probably, but if I can get people who don't have a rank in flex, and the only solo rank is bronze....why did I fight this team?

https://i.imgur.com/6SaiEJV.png

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/242/983/979.jpg

3 of those guys were a premade, so apparently Riot thinks this is a fairmatch up, 3 premade members on both sides. I can't wait to see the explanation for this one.

Inb4 "op.gg sucks", shut up, Dusk, you magnificent bastard.

46 Comments

Kai GuyOct 8, 20194 votes

Your rank is gold but your consistently in Silver MMR for Flex. Everybody on your team is playing consistently Silver MMR in flex, 3 of them being pretty new but as they are all grouped its not like MM has any fucking choice but to keep them on the same team.

Looking at prior games, S2 S1 averages with 1 stand out at s4 prior but S1 prior to that.

Flex will have a wider gap of MMR to pull from and some more dramatic mismatches from MMR gap balance forced by premade.

If you had G3 MMR consistently you'd have never been in this game.

No need for dusk to call you out here. I likely have the better knowledge on Elo systems then he does.

Titles are designed to lopsidedly make folks feel better about going up and cover up when they sink.

General Esdeath Oct 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-08T05:20:33.900+0000)

Your rank is gold but your consistently in Silver MMR for Flex. Everybody on your team is playing consistently Silver MMR in flex, 3 of them being pretty new but as they are all grouped its not like MM has any fucking choice but to keep them on the same team.

Looking at prior games, S2 S1 averages with 1 stand out at s4 prior but S1 prior to that.

Flex will have a wider gap of MMR to pull from and some more dramatic mismatches from MMR gap balance forced by premade.

If you had G3 MMR consistently you'd have never been in this game.

No need for dusk to call you out here. I likely have the better knowledge on Elo systems then he does.

Titles are designed to lopsidedly make folks feel better about going up and cover up when they sink.

Yeah I don't think anyone on my team was playing with a silver MMR, sounds more like the system gave them a boost up because they're a premade, which is a horrible idea for any queue.

Kai GuyOct 8, 20192 votes

Like the other comment. Silver is the starting MMR. It has the 50 percentile inside it.

General Esdeath Oct 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-10-08T06:00:10.709+0000)

Like the other comment. Silver is the starting MMR. It has the 50 percentile inside it.

Man that worked out REALLY well. I mean, damn, putting unranked vs unranked would just be silly. Has nothing to do with being a premade at all 👌

Kai GuyOct 9, 20191 votes

Putting unranked vs unranked is silly. Do you not understand why?

General Esdeath Oct 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-09T00:58:57.486+0000)

Putting unranked vs unranked is silly. Do you not understand why?

Better than putting unranked vs a ranked. At least when I play unranked in a new season I know it's gonna be a shit show for a while until everything is sorted.

SubdueOct 8, 20192 votes

Different queues, different ratings... Your MMR doesn't transfer over from queue to queue. If all of you have never played Flex before, you're all the same MMR.

General Esdeath Oct 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Different queues, different ratings... Your MMR doesn't transfer over from queue to queue. If all of you have never played Flex before, you're all the same MMR.

You can literally see the flex rank of everyone in these pictures. This isn't some "different queues" issue. Nobody on their team is below silver, and they all have at least 20 games in flex. Meanwhile my team is 3 unranked people who have less than 10. How is that fair? And why am I, a gold 3 flex player, in this game?

Kai GuyOct 8, 20193 votes

Your Pictures have some one listed as level 25.... Prior to when ranked ques, even flex, unlock. Not up to date. Your history has you playing in Silver MMR, Its not shocking to see ya placed into a silver MMR average when that's common.

Any further questions?

General Esdeath Oct 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-08T05:22:59.499+0000)

Your Pictures have some one listed as level 25.... Prior to when ranked ques, even flex, unlock. Not up to date.

Up to date, op.gg just doesn't update levels as fast because Riot's API is shit.

Your history has you playing in Silver MMR, Its not shocking to see ya placed into a silver MMR average when that's common.

3 people with no flex rank and negative winrates in bronze in silver MMR? 🤔

Any further questions?

When's Mahvel?

Kai GuyOct 8, 20192 votes

3 people with no flex rank and negative winrates in bronze in silver MMR? 🤔

What part of Ques are tracked independently do you need help understanding ? Silver is the starting MMR.

Your Flex MMR is hidden but your consistently being placed into silver games. Pretty clear that your rank is not accurate to your MMR... which is what the system is designed to hide. Division 4 wouldn't take such a massive Gap to demote folks down a Tier otherwise. I like visible MMR but folks rage about seeing their value only ever sink.

Dope SoloOct 8, 20191 votes

Given how bad matchmaking has objectively and actually been this season, do you ever get tired of being wrong?

Kai GuyOct 8, 20191 votes

Correct me if I am wrong. For example, I assume that you use Gameplay as the metric for good or bad MM?

Dope SoloOct 8, 20191 votes

Are you for seriously asking if I consider quality of matchmaking to be a participating and dependent factor acting on a player's experience of overall game quality? lol. [sg-miss-fortune]

Kai GuyOct 9, 20191 votes

No. I am asking if you use gameplay as the metric you use to judge MM quality. A yes or no. I'd like a direct responce.

Dope SoloOct 9, 20191 votes

The quality of the made match experienced during gameplay is obviously a metric that goes into judging the quality of the match made. What a ridiculous and nonsensical question.

Kai GuyOct 9, 20191 votes

[deleted]

Dope SoloOct 9, 20191 votes

Utter nonsense. Gameplay quality is the only accountability mechanic that matters, or there would be no need for a matchmaker at all. For all your self-professed knowledge the only thing you succeeded in is making yourself look like a pompous blowhard who utterly dismisses the only necessary and primary function of having a matchmaker at all. A blackbox matchmaker at that, which you know no more about than anyone else here and its time for you to stop fooling yourself because no one else is buying it.

Kai GuyOct 9, 20191 votes

You study what's real to spot a fake. You look at originals to catch counterfeits.

Riot claims to use mmr. Mmr is not a black box. Mmr is a derivative of Elo. Elo Rating adjustment is RN=Ro+K(W-We) l gave you the correct information for W variable. Google it if you don't want to take my word for it.

It's a mathematical application of probability theory. Why do you think elo Raiting works for chess but also baseball and scrabble? Why did it get used to make Facebook and tinder? Mmr is used for mobas, fps, and RTS . Why? Because wins and losses are a universal metric for this kind of system. Gameplay is not a relevant metric in a system that only sees 1 or 0.

Your metric for judgment is irrelevant mmr and elo as a whole not just riots "black box" get it? Any mmr system what your saying is wrong. How about you read up on the topic before returning to insult me. Start with Elo. It's well documented.

General Esdeath Oct 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-08T05:59:09.669+0000)

What part of Ques are tracked independently do you need help understanding ? Silver is the starting MMR.

Maybe you're not reading my comment very well, but they are unranked, they should be playing against other unranked players. Their match history (in flex) is negative winrates. I'd link them but no name and shame so I can't do that.

Your Flex MMR is hidden but your consistently being placed into silver games. Pretty clear that your rank is not accurate to your MMR... which is what the system is designed to hide. Division 4 wouldn't take such a massive Gap to demote folks down a Tier otherwise. I like visible MMR but folks rage about seeing their value only ever sink.

Other games had gold players in them, so I don't think it's necessarily my MMR. Think it's more about pre-mades causing the system to act up because it tries to count them as something they aren't.

Kai GuyOct 9, 20192 votes

Its a mmr system. Unranked vs unranked is not helpful and what % do you expect of player population in a que to realistically be unranked? Provide a value.

Titles are low value. Riot uses them to hide mmr. Player retention. Folks quit faster when they get stuck apprently. Not how id run it but I don't cater to feelings very well.

General Esdeath Oct 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-09T01:45:16.863+0000)

Its a mmr system. Unranked vs unranked is not helpful and what % do you expect of player population in a que to realistically be unranked? Provide a value.

Titles are low value. Riot uses them to hide mmr. Player retention. Folks quit faster when they get stuck apprently. Not how id run it but I don't cater to feelings very well.

If they don't have a rank, they don't have an MMR. UNLESS of course the queue MMR's mix but you said they don't so...

Kai GuyOct 9, 20192 votes

Everybody has a identical starting mmr. It is used to build the ladder. It represents roughly the 50% marker. Mmr is not set to be zero sum so the impact of uncertainty impacts population distribution. By haveing room for weaker players to sink you create a lower mmr section of the ladder. At a point they no longer show up in the standard starting mmrs. They sink but its not instant. It takes them providing they do not belong. The concept is a class interval and its built from standard deviation of a probability distribution model. I'd assume riot uses logistical distribution.

General Esdeath Oct 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-09T02:41:42.384+0000)

Everybody has a identical starting mmr. It is used to build the ladder. It represents roughly the 50% marker. Mmr is not set to be zero sum so the impact of uncertainty impacts population distribution. By haveing room for weaker players to sink you create a lower mmr section of the ladder. At a point they no longer show up in the standard starting mmrs. They sink but its not instant. It takes them providing they do not belong. The concept is a class interval and its built from standard deviation of a probability distribution model. I'd assume riot uses logistical distribution.

Then you start them in bronze. There's a tier lower than bronze and then you get thrown into silver and then gold, which are an even split on the majority of players (currently 32% in each)

Kai GuyOct 9, 20191 votes

That does not impact the skill curve just titles. You just downgraded ladder titles. Instant redistribution would turn you silver. Adjusting it then letting the ladder redistribute would take longer but it's going to be the same curve built off population skill. I can try and graph it out if you need a visual but it's gonna be a few hours till I get home.

It's a math system. Try to think of it as such.

General Esdeath Oct 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-09T03:05:26.395+0000)

That does not impact the skill curve just titles. You just downgraded ladder titles. Instant redistribution would turn you silver. Adjusting it then letting the ladder redistribute would take longer but it's going to be the same curve built off population skill. I can try and graph it out if you need a visual but it's gonna be a few hours till I get home.

It's a math system. Try to think of it as such.

Even distribution would put you in gold, they're at the same %. And even distribution is a horrible idea for a skill based game.

Kai GuyOct 9, 20191 votes

Distributions off the probability model. It's not even. Its not zero sum. If irs normal or logistical it's a bell curve. The center is designed and built around the starting mmr value. Changing the title or value does not impact how it aims to distribute and it will correct over time.

Core of Elo theory is built from natural averages. If you have 100 people in a room there is an average age, weight, hight. Similar concept. The room is the que and it looks to mesure in comparison to the average from win rate and context of where on the curve you stand.

General Esdeath Oct 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-09T05:30:59.479+0000)

Distributions off the probability model. It's not even. Its not zero sum. If irs normal or logistical it's a bell curve. The center is designed and built around the starting mmr value. Changing the title or value does not impact how it aims to distribute and it will correct over time.

Core of Elo theory is built from natural averages. If you have 100 people in a room there is an average age, weight, hight. Similar concept. The room is the que and it looks to mesure in comparison to the average from win rate and context of where on the curve you stand.

Yes a bell curve that's positive skewed, there's more on the lower side (under plat) than on the higher side. But the high points for silver and gold are the same, so clearly this isn't a case of 50% are in silver.

Kai GuyOct 10, 20191 votes

Eh? Silver is only about 30% of the population. Ah. Its my fault. I fked up. "it represents roughly the 50% marker" I should have just said Percentile.

The middle of the bell curve Is going to be the Near the starting MMR. There are more titles on the higher side of the curve then lower, That does not impact the "Skill" curve however. Titles are arbitrary Ranges Riot sets. The distribution will want to build the Bell from the starting MMR as that's going to end up representing the average level of skill. If you turned Bronze into the new starting MMR the entire ladder will redistribute to make Bronze the Middle of the curve over time.

Look at Various site that Graph the ladder or share ladder position. Silver tends to be visibly the 50 Percentile. I don't think of Silver as "low" I think of it as " Standard level of skill" What's Normal is by definition not sub average.

Do not Think of a Bell curve as built from Titles. Cuz that wont match any distribution very well. Titles are distractions. If you treat them as equal then your looking at I,B,S, G,P,D M,GM,C For Tiers only
Or go by divisions as well to get i4,i3,i2,i1,b4,b3,b2,b1,s4,s3,s2,s1,g4,g3,g2,g1,p4,p3,p2,p1,d4,d3,d2,d1,m,gm,c
that creates a unrealistic idea of what the ladders distribution looks like. Think of The curve as the more abstract Player Skill. Then law of averages, A majority value exists in any group of humans. This value we are building the curve with is skill at league of legends. By putting them at the same starting point, Above and below average players stand out fairly clearly. Once the curve is established by blending new accounts into the curve at the majority level of skill you get information on if some one is above or below majority level very quickly.

Because there is a finite # of players and set starting rating, the probability model used for rating helps smooth it to resemble a curve. Accounts cant earn a rating with out achieving the require results. (You can how ever earn an inaccurate title in riots system.)

Man I hope I am explaining this clearly. I had to see it graphed out to start to get the concept personally.

Dope SoloOct 9, 20191 votes

This guy just talks in circles. Don't bother.

Kai GuyOct 9, 20191 votes

I wouldent have to repeat myself over and over if people like you took the time to learn and stopped sticking their fingers into their ears like a toddler.

I want you to take the time to at least look up Elo system theory becuase its the starting point of MMR.

Or is a Google search to complicated of a concept for you to comprehend as well? I can bring the links to you if needed.

Dope SoloOct 9, 20191 votes

I think your primary deficiency is in thinking you have more to offer in this topic than you actually do, to the point of ignoring the actual facts as they come in and are presented. Youve literally dis missed hundreds of new matchmaking complaints incident to just this season "because mmr", which is beyond nonsense. Over and out.

Kai GuyOct 9, 20192 votes

And I think your primary Deficiency is you have not done a single search on the topic.

Think for a moment. Why can Elo ratings be used for Scrabble, Baseball, Chess, Tinder, Facebook, Pandora, Poker, and MTG?

It should be pretty obvious that gameplay is a non factor. Its a mathematic concept.

Elo's central assumption was that the chess performance of each player in each game is a normally distributed random variable. Although a player might perform significantly better or worse from one game to the next, Elo assumed that the mean value of the performances of any given player changes only slowly over time. Elo thought of a player's true skill as the mean of that player's performance random variable. A further assumption is necessary because chess performance in the above sense is still not measurable. One cannot look at a sequence of moves and say, "That performance is 2039." Performance can only be inferred from** wins, draws and losses**. Therefore, if a player wins a game, they are assumed to have performed at a higher level than their opponent for that game. Conversely, if the player loses, they are assumed to have performed at a lower level. If the game is a draw, the two players are assumed to have performed at nearly the same level

Dope SoloOct 9, 20191 votes

You further embarrass yourself in making a critical reasoning flaw assuming that no one else has done any reading on the topic, and you fail to recognize completely the possibility that others are capable of arriving at different conclusions than you have.

It's very simple really, the matchmaker has changed this season, and that change came with a significant drop in the perceived quality of games.

Kai GuyOct 9, 20191 votes

If **you **did any reading on the topic By all means then.

Gameplay quality is the only accountability mechanic that matters

Please provide how an Elo system would be influenced by "Gameplay quality." Its not a metric inside an Elo or MMR system in any of the variables I know about. MM impacts gameplay but you can not use Gameplay to cite MM issues.

Players have constant unrealistic expectations for MM, this is not just league its a common frustration in team games. Understanding how and why things work is my approach. I study. Folks who Rant about Feeders afk Any issue that happens after a lobby is made. I don't understand their logic in attributing that to MM not the People behind keyboards. Once a lobby is built MM stops, that really should be self evident.

Edit. Heads up Mods Deleted one of my earlier posts for tone. I just want you to understand MMR systems. Getting our conversation deleted or us banned would be counter productive imo.

Look, I don't think the Perceived drop in quality is to surprising. I expect that given Positional MM. I also do not think S9 has the best gameplay and that there is room to improve. How many times have you seen me call out Duo implementation as a negative value?

My opinion on quality loss is direct related to player behavior systems because soft inting/# of folks who just give up instantly is far to often, but that's simply an opinion I have built from observation.

However. If some one says 4+4=44 they are wrong. I don't understand how you would call this a "critical reasoning flaw" The Stats pulled from game are W and L for this type of system, so when folks site stats or events that are not W or L they are providing bad information.

I don't mind folks who show they actually looked into the system. You don't seem to be one. By all means if this is not correct then simply prove me wrong. Folks who have the ability to discuss the terms involved, the concepts. More then welcome to be of a different opinion. When its people who call me pretentious because I am literally just using the Terms inherent to a conversation about Probability and Statistic theory do not get that benefit.

chipndip1Oct 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-08T03:08:30.158+0000)

You can literally see the flex rank of everyone in these pictures. This isn't some "different queues" issue.

All of them are Silver in Flex...

General Esdeath Oct 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

All of them are Silver in Flex...

"all of them"

Did you miss the picture of my team? The one where none of them are ranked in flex?

HunkmenlordyOct 8, 20191 votes

I heard you can still win even if someone feed 0/30 in your team and someone can just 1 vs 5 wipe all.

General Esdeath Oct 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I heard you can still win even if someone feed 0/30 in your team and someone can just 1 vs 5 wipe all.

Maybe if you're a challenger smurf on Riven who went 7-0 in lane and got 2 items by 15 minutes

HunkmenlordyOct 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-10-08T03:41:48.933+0000)

Maybe if you're a challenger smurf on Riven who went 7-0 in lane and got 2 items by 15 minutes

I don't know but I heard things like that happends everyday.

General Esdeath Oct 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I don't know but I heard things like that happends everyday.

CLOWN HORN INTENSIFIES

The thigh guyOct 9, 20191 votes

I mean. I’m bronze 1 and I’m getting gold 4/3 in my game. It’s a fucking shit show.

Inkling CommandoOct 9, 20191 votes

marks "joke match making" off bingo card

General Esdeath Oct 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inkling Commando,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-10-09T18:24:39.136+0000)

marks "joke match making" off bingo card

Quick what are the other spots?

Inkling CommandoOct 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-10-10T00:47:18.923+0000)

Quick what are the other spots?

i still need looks "new champ is OP. please nerf" i got "Damage is too high" earlier.

General Esdeath Oct 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inkling Commando,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l013tdRx,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-10-10T01:16:55.274+0000)

i still need looks "new champ is OP. please nerf" i got "Damage is too high" earlier.

As soon as the new champ is revealed I'll make the post for you