Why Is Stealth The Only Mechanic In League That Has ZERO Counters?

Best Ekko NA·Jan 18, 2018·27 votes·6,446 views

Lee Sin's ability to detect stealthed targets was removed, then Pink Wards and Sweepers were changed to no longer reveal invisible champions. Now every single champion in the game which can turn invisible is impossible to deal with when they snowball because there is nothing in the game to counter them.

Everything else in the game has counters:

Healing? Grievous Wounds. Damage? Armor. Armor? Armor Penetration. Magic Damage? Magic Resist. Magic Resist? Magic Penetration. Mobility? Crowd Control. Crowd Control? Tenacity. Vision? Sweepers, Pink Wards.

Then we have...

Stealth? Hahahaha big middle fingers guys, get fucked.

What's the big deal here? Is this issue actually ever going to GET FIXED?

76 Comments

BjørnetjenestenJan 18, 201825 votes

Sorry stealth is perfectly balanced for most cases.

Counter to Camouflage --> Deep stealth wards and control wards (if you get stealthed by rengar, eve its your own fault)

I agree here that twitch detection radius needs to be bigger

Invisibility has enough counterplay to make it balanced:

its is usually on a short timer 1-5 seconds
Invisible units cant attack/cast spells without breaking stealth (think of it like a delayed dash/reposition)
Hitting invisible units with skillshots and aoe will make them shimmer
Lens also outlines where they, so you can land skillshots and aoe.
If there was an item that could make invisible champs targetable, it would make the champs kit useless for a very low price.

meowwow7Jan 18, 20184 votes

also tethers reveal invisible units

Sire HippingtonJan 18, 20181 votes

nope, only karma reveals them. The others atleast kinda show you where they are, but you still can't target them.

Akali is SO HOTJan 20, 20181 votes

All tethers grant True Sight which reveals invisible units and a few other abilities like Lee Sin Q and Fizz Ult

Sire HippingtonJan 20, 20181 votes

Nope, Nocturn's E for sure doesn't, nor does Fiddle's W, and unless it changed with the rework, LB's E doesn't reveal either.

Flawless FetusJan 18, 20183 votes

Ehhh. If there was an item you could be to be able to see Vayne while she's invis (RIP pink ward), she'd still be one of the best carries in the game right now. Back when pinks existed, Vayne, Akali, and Twitch were all dominant... and you could reveal them for 75g. Lol. "It would make the champs kit useless". Nope.

BjørnetjenestenJan 18, 20187 votes

Are you trying to say its "perfectly okay" that 75 gold can disable a champions kit/balance?

Certain champ being dominant does not mean that it was necessarily because of their stealth. It could have been the meta, the stats, the items and so on. Like now, vayne is not strong because of stealth, but because her laning phase is too forgiving and her counters are weak.

I remember playing Vayne before the stealth changes. You really had to keep an eye on enemy supports inventory, before lategame fights. If they had pink wards, you needed to rethink your playstyle and completely back off if they dropped that pink ward. Your ulti would be completely wasted.

Flawless FetusJan 18, 20183 votes

No. I'm saying that all of those champs were still very powerful. They're kit wasn't negated. They were top tier picks - even when pinks existed. So if they still existed, they'd be fine.

SairentosutokaMar 11, 20181 votes

Gotta call your bullshit. no stealth champions kit is ruined by visibility. Akali works just as fine without shroud most of the time you dont even use it as a smoke screen but for the small blink. Shaco's is mainly the blink which is why its a short duration of stealth. Twitch it just makes it so he can go from an ADC or an ASSASSIN. Talon is literally only used for it damage its used again instantly for damage. Rengar is just strong as fuck so even with vision unless you have a team stacked with cc your carry is dead. vaynes is just part of her q stealth ward doesnt even do much to her.

Eve is probably the only one who it would affect a bit. thats just because riot keeps trying to make this perm stealth a fucking thing.

the only chars that have a short 1-5 cd on stealth are ones that it actually doesn't affect them at all if you throw down a pink.

Shaco/talon/vayne. they dont rely on that stealth shacos is basically the blink/reset on duskblade same with talon. and vaynes is just an added bonus to tumble.

Akalis is 8 seconds. twitch is 10-15. rengar is like 16-30 and eve permanent.

Now getting close to a stealth make them visible but why would they let you do that considering every stleath ability gives you a good ass movement speed boost so you can scoot around the enemies to get to their carries.

There is actually nothing you can do to stop a shaco blinking onto your adc and 1 hitting him because duskblade is still a thing. oh yeah he cant get away easily but he just 1 shot your carry so it doesnt matter if he dies he did his job. Same with rengar pretty much one shots adc only upside is that it tells you who hes closest to so you can kinda gauge where hes at. twitch comes out of stealth pops ult and 2-3 hits anyone not a tank. and akali doesnt even need her stealth.

Theres actually 0 counter to stealth them "shimmering" is not a counter oh what they just walk away and retry in 8 seconds? not to mention carrying wards takes up a spot so no one is gonna sacrifice a full item for a ward at 30 minutes in. it would literally be to make the stealth champions not snowball harder than hell in the first 20 minutes.

Literally every champion worked fine back when wards revealed them. Akali was still good. shaco was still good twitch was still good talon rengar. everyone. actually everyone.

SymesAug 10, 20182 votes

Really? cant cast spells? WHat about shaco? invisability champions have no counter and t hat is it. This game is for retards by retards

JunglerFriskOct 22, 20182 votes

Completely balanced if you have Skill shots, tankiness, or mobility. Targeted abilities won't hit stealth, being squishy means that if a stealth assassin gets the jump on you, you will die, and not being mobile means that when they inevitably do get the jump on you, that you can't escape before getting bursted. Fortunately only 10 or so champions fall into that category, but sucks for you if your champ is one of those.

Build some tankiness to counter, sucks for you since the rest of the cast doesn't have to waste 1200~ gold on tank stats vs stealth, but that's the hand you're dealt when u get countered.

Papa BearOct 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=plaga hominum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-01-18T12:30:16.347+0000)

Sorry stealth is perfectly balanced for most cases.

Counter to Camouflage --> Deep stealth wards and control wards (if you get stealthed by rengar, eve its your own fault)

I agree here that twitch detection radius needs to be bigger

Invisibility has enough counterplay to make it balanced:

its is usually on a short timer 1-5 seconds

Invisible units cant attack/cast spells without breaking stealth (think of it like a delayed dash/reposition)

Hitting invisible units with skillshots and aoe will make them shimmer

Lens also outlines where they, so you can land skillshots and aoe.

If there was an item that could make invisible champs targetable, it would make the champs kit useless for a very low price.

Gonna be honest all of that is irrelevant if you literally consider the single outlyer of akali... Her W is super fucking broken, even after the MINOR nerfs to her kit, she's still so oppressive she makes season 2 lee sin look like a fucking pushover. She (and all champs with stealth) need to have either the stealth ripped from their kit and replaced with something that isn't objectively toxic to leagues gameplay, or have the champ removed. Riots choice, it's gotta happen. Currently with pink wards not revealing stealth like they used to... it's just super over powered and objectively toxic and poorly designed.

As an example of how poorly made it is ... look at who made her... same person who made yasuo, and we all know he's very poorly made and toxic to leagues gameplay itself. Stealth and champions with it need to be fixed ASAP.

Zed geniusJan 18, 201810 votes

Everything else in the game has counters:

Healing? Grievous Wounds. Damage? Armor. Armor? Armor Penetration. Magic Damage? Magic Resist. Magic Resist? Magic Penetration. Mobility? Crowd Control. Crowd Control? Tenacity. Vision? Sweepers, Pink Wards.

shields?

TS MediaJan 18, 20184 votes

The REAL uncounterable mechanic.

FireDrizzleJan 18, 20187 votes

Other than the grounded effect and other things in champs like Poppy's thing nothing really counters mobility. cc is just as good vs immobile champs, when it isnt MUCH better vs immobile champs, such as abilities like Ali W or slows that can be ignored by dashing like Darius W.

o brigid oJan 18, 20186 votes

RekSai ???

Does rek'sai's ground form not detect stealthed enemies that are moving?

Best Ekko NAJan 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

???

Does rek'sai's ground form not detect stealthed enemies that are moving?

Rek'sai doesn't reveal them, nothing reveals invisible champions anymore. Unless you have abilities that can target the ground, you still can't do anything about them, even if you know where they are. That's the biggest reason Sweepers are useless against Invisible + Stealthed champions.. if you have to click on them to attack, they are basically untargettable the entire time they are invisible.

Also, having "Sight" is NOT enough to give vision of an invisible unit. Even if you land Jinx's Jinx W on an invisible enemy, it doesn't give you vision of them. There's only a handful of champions in the game that can give "True Sight" including Lee Sin's Q, and Twisted Fate's ultimate. Those two are really the only practical ones in the entire game, because the others are tied to things that require previous contact with the enemy before they are stealthed ( Caitlyn R Karma W), are stationary traps ( Caitlyn W), or are ultimate abilities that you aren't going to randomly waste hoping to hit someone who might not even be there ( Fizz R Thresh R).

There are only two elements in the game for countering stealth right now, and they're Twisted Fate's TwistedFate ultimate and the support item Frost Queen's Claim item 3092 . The funny part is, Frost Queen's Claim will soon be removed from the game.. so Twisted Fate will be the ONLY champion in the entire game who can realistically counter enemy stealth (and his ultimate is on a huge cooldown that you don't waste just to reveal someone who is invisible).

o brigid oJan 18, 20183 votes

Spooky ghosts aren't leaving for good. Riot has made it clear they plan to add them to another item.

Having 'sight' is plenty enough even if it doesn't let you click on them. Firstly, there are plenty of abilities - not just stealth - that make champions briefly untargetable. This is not exlusive to invisible champs. There are so many ways to damage a champion even if they are invisible. If for some reason you can't do ANYTHING but point and click to do damage, the knowledge of where an invisible unit is gives you the ability to reposition, back off, prepare for the next couple of seconds when the invisible unit exists stealth. If you don't gain knowledge of where an invisible unit is, then they've got one up on you. It's not the end of the world. And it doesn't make it OP. The circumstances just happened to favor them in the moment. A lot of times you'll have an idea when a champion is entering stealth and you'll have a chance to flee/prepare for it.

There aren't really a ton of invisible abilities out there to worry about, and if they're that worrisome for you, banning the biggest offender is always an option.

NyarlathοtepJan 18, 20184 votes

No counterplay you say? 1 word. Shielding.

YokoNomiJan 18, 20186 votes

{quoted}

No counterplay you say? 1 word. Shielding.

Since every champion in every role is a natural tank.

....what?

NyarlathοtepJan 18, 20183 votes

Wait what? How does this even make sense? When did i mention tanks? Do u even English?

YokoNomiJan 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Wait what? How does this even make sense? When did i mention tanks? Do u even English?

Do you? Not wasting my energy if you're not getting the point. xD

NyarlathοtepJan 18, 20182 votes

Dude i said that shielding has no counterplay ( besides the do more dmg argument). You came and said "Since every champion in every role is a natural tank. what?" Something that makes absolutely no sense. Funny part, i got downvoted and you got upvoted. Boards will never stop surprising me.

AhristocatsJan 18, 20183 votes

damage per seconds reveal briefly stealthied champions

Darius Mordekaiser and every mages with liandry will reveal them

PennsJan 18, 20186 votes

And fizz ult reveals stealth ######now he just needs to get reverted :]

GreatDerpressionJan 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-18T11:46:39.163+0000)

damage per seconds reveal briefly stealthied champions

and every mages with liandry will reveal them

Yes but that only works with units retreating with stealth there's almost no counter play for a stealth unit engaging on you except pure reaction time.

AhristocatsJan 18, 20184 votes

there is also no counterplay when a camille jump across the screen from fog of where, stun you then ult

the counter to stealth and mobility in that case is:

vision

BjørnetjenestenJan 18, 20181 votes

Predicting where they will most likely be and using AOE and Skillshots.

xelakerJan 18, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-01-18T10:39:06.216+0000)

Lee Sin's ability to detect stealthed targets was removed, then Pink Wards and Sweepers were changed to no longer reveal invisible champions. Now every single champion in the game which can turn invisible is impossible to deal with when they snowball because there is nothing in the game to counter them.

Everything else in the game has counters:

Healing? Grievous Wounds. Damage? Armor. Armor? Armor Penetration. Magic Damage? Magic Resist. Magic Resist? Magic Penetration. Mobility? Crowd Control. Crowd Control? Tenacity. Vision? Sweepers, Pink Wards.

Then we have...

Stealth? Hahahaha big middle fingers guys, get fucked.

What's the big deal here? Is this issue actually ever going to GET FIXED?

item 2055 item 3364 item 3341 Corki LeeSin RekSai Rengar TwistedFate sure I've missed others

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 18, 20182 votes

Lee Sin's ability to detect stealthed targets was removed

Definitly not, i play against many lee recently with Wu... i was all but invisible.

GoldBottleJan 18, 20185 votes

His Q reveals stealthed targets when hit by it, but his E no longer reveals them. However there have been bug reports where his E reveal is happening again but Riot hasn't said anything about the issue.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 18, 20181 votes

yeah must be bug, cause he E me then ult during my invisibility (without touch any Q)

SaturnSC1Jan 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-01-18T12:45:46.659+0000)

Definitly not, i play against many lee recently with Wu... i was all but invisible.

He meant on his E, he was able to reveal invisible. Akali was in her shroud and all Lee had to do is press E in the middle and boom she is dead. They removed true sight from his E but kept it on his Q.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 18, 20181 votes

same i mean E

Best Ekko NAJan 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-01-18T12:45:46.659+0000)

Definitly not, i play against many lee recently with Wu... i was all but invisible.

Only on his E.. his Q can still detect stealth however it's not really that useful at flat out revealing someone in an area such as a sweeper or his old E.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 20, 20181 votes

nah, his E revealed me during my invisibility... cause he was able to ult me during this time (other say its a bug).

deadlychuckJan 18, 20182 votes

Well stealth isn't the only mechanic which has no counter mechanic.

But in other cases, there exist counter mechanics, but they're basically non-existent. Like auto attack blocking (with windwall, unbreakable, or even Spirit's Refuge) or grounding for dashes (with super adhesive or miasma).

Yes, these counters exist, but while the mechanic is so wide spread and becoming an increasing portion of the power for different champions, you've already programmed these mechanics into the game, but leave it only on a few very specific champions.

EvilDeBeagleJan 18, 20182 votes

Why everyone always forget that Morgana R toggles even if there are invisible champions around? It even grants vision for the Morgana player (I dunno if is it shared with teammates). Well you have to watch it regulary if it is toggled but it works and locks on.

If you are really sick of stealth champions (I just suggest that the biggest culprits are Akali and Shaco ) You can always pick Morgana into them since she is a good Flexpick. (The last changes made her even viable in Jungle)

And since Morgana is rarely banned, I would suggest for you to give her a chance to pick up.

xelakerJan 18, 20181 votes

all tethers stay on ivis champs as well if you are trying to keep track on someone trying to run for the hills. Fiddlesticks Karma ect.

Andrey0345Jan 18, 20182 votes

Not a bad counter - summoner 14 . Yes, it's a whole summoner, but it's still a counter. and most stealth champs are pretty weak, so it's one of the things keeping them viable.

Best Ekko NAJan 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not a bad counter - . Yes, it's a whole summoner, but it's still a counter. and most stealth champs are pretty weak, so it's one of the things keeping them viable.

Ignite does not give true vision, it only reveals champions in the fog of war.

One Tough MuffMay 15, 20182 votes

Stealth is a an over used mechanic by riot that often completely takes out the need for skill to execute a kit.

I find that champs that can stealth for extended periods tend to have very low skill caps. (Ev, Shaco, Twitch, Khaz)

Games with these and similar champs tend to be frustrating one shot fests rather than skill match ups. I like to play champs with high skill caps and getting killed by a champ that that I can't see and therefore can't outplay sucks. It is against the core competitive skill match up ideal of the game that drew me to LOL in the first place.

Its a lazy mechanic and I'm bored of it. Champs should be unique and hard to master rather than based on cheese and one-shots.

Ultra Rapid FyreJan 18, 20181 votes

youre talking about balance.... heres the issue... if you arent counter picking in ranked / draft, then you are an idiot, period.

No one cares about blinds

LauchmelderJan 18, 20181 votes

If you're counterpicking is your top priority in the pregame lobby you're an idiot, period.

I'd rather have someone on his main champion playing against his counter than on an off-champion "counterpicking" his enemy.

Teridax68Jan 18, 20181 votes

I think this kind of goes about the wrong way: the entire point of invisibility as a mechanic is that it is meant to allow you to reliably infiltrate enemy territory without getting detected. Its core purpose is to give the invisible champion more agency over when and where they can strike, even if it reduces the agency of the target at that moment. What this means is that any sort of champion with invisibility needs to have more counter potential when they're actually in combat. Effectively, the problem with champions like Akali isn't so much that they get uncounterable invisibility, but that their kits don't have much outplay potential when they're actually fighting.

To pick another example, players tend to dislike Rengar not so much because he can go invisible (or into camouflage, currently), but because he can one-shot targets in the fraction of a second he reveals himself. If you were to draw the timeline of Rengar popping his ult right up to the moment where his target dies, there is effectively no point along that timeline where his opponent had a real chance to outplay him, which is why even dedicated Rengar mains want to get rid of his one-shot. In general, I think the solution to stealth champions shouldn't be to touch their invisibility (I personally believe camouflage already defeats the point of the mechanic), but to make absolutely sure that their combat capabilities are more outplayable than those of the average damage-dealer, which means no upfront burst, no 1k+ damage basic attacks, and no significant amount of reliable damage in general.

Best Ekko NAJan 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think this kind of goes about the wrong way: the entire point of invisibility as a mechanic is that it is meant to allow you to reliably infiltrate enemy territory without getting detected. Its core purpose is to give the invisible champion more agency over when and where they can strike, even if it reduces the agency of the target at that moment. What this means is that any sort of champion with invisibility needs to have more counter potential when they're actually in combat. Effectively, the problem with champions like Akali isn't so much that they get uncounterable invisibility, but that their kits don't have much outplay potential when they're actually fighting.

To pick another example, players tend to dislike Rengar not so much because he can go invisible (or into camouflage, currently), but because he can one-shot targets in the fraction of a second he reveals himself. If you were to draw the timeline of Rengar popping his ult right up to the moment where his target dies, there is effectively no point along that timeline where his opponent had a real chance to outplay him, which is why even dedicated Rengar mains want to get rid of his one-shot. In general, I think the solution to stealth champions shouldn't be to touch their invisibility (I personally believe camouflage already defeats the point of the mechanic), but to make absolutely sure that their combat capabilities are more outplayable than those of the average damage-dealer, which means no upfront burst, no 1k+ damage basic attacks, and no significant amount of reliable damage in general.

Okay, here's the thing.. League of Legends is all about teamwork and counter play... Every champion has its own counters or items to counter it. Usually Lee Sin is considered a big counter to stealth because of his Q (and before it was changed, his E). Sweepers and pink wards used to counter stealth.. too hard? Perhaps. My complaint is that Riot is allowing stealth to become TOO POWERFUL by simply removing all means of detecting it. Stealth champions should be no different than any other champion, where you check out the enemy team and how to defeat them. For example, the enemy team is all AD... sure let's pick Rammus. The enemy team has no stealth detection, let's pick Kha'zix, or Akali.

Stealth balance is a huge issue in most RPG's (that have it), and right now League of Legends is letting it run wild unjustly. Stealth champions have always been powerful even before the changes to make it even more powerful. The only reason it was even adjusted was due to the fact that it was not viable in professional play due to how coordinated teams are with ward placement and vision denial. Let's also not forget that you used to be able to place multiple stealth detecting (purple) wards and unlimited numbers of green ones when this was an issue. That problem has long been solved since around Season 5 and actually served no additional purposes on their (Riot's) end for removing the ability to detect stealth with pink wards.

The current state of the game is really a nightmare revolving around, "How broken can we make something else to counter the things that are already broken?" When I look at League of Legends, the game in the past (Seasons 1 ~ 4) were actually fairly balanced. Most of the issues in the game were either coding problems (animation cancel bug for instance) or design issues (Garen for example). To counter the design issues, Riot began adjusting champions to require more skill and coordination... which to me is a mistake. The theory looks good on paper, but anyone who's played any amount of time can look at the game and see the aftermath up to Season 7 has had some very frustrating results.

Then of course we have Season 8... which is starting to look like it will be the worst balance state of the game in the history of it. Maybe it's too soon to be judgmental, but everything does damage.. insane amounts of it. In the past Marksman have always been the most terrifying class because of their range, but now we have the era of the assassins. After all, you can't stop massive damage from hitting you if it can't be seen.

Teridax68Jan 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2018-01-20T04:46:00.598+0000)

Okay, here's the thing.. League of Legends is all about teamwork and counter play... Every champion has its own counters or items to counter it.

Sure, but literally nothing that you have just said takes into account what I have said in response to your OP. Additionally, this assessment is itself flawed, since stealth champions do have counters to their other mechanics. If you want to talk about stealth-specific counters, and the lack of them, you'd also have to bring up the lack of anti-shield tools, anti-blink tools, anti-immunity tools, anti-untargetability tools, and so on. Moreover, as I specified in my above comment, the entire purpose of invisibility is to defer counterplay to a different part of combat. In this respect, it is no different from other mechanics that do the same for the flow of combat, including untargetability or shields. What this means is that stealth champions need to have additional counterplay around their stealth, notably in combat, and the current issue with stealth champions is that their counterplay in the middle of combat is lacking. Akali has damage that is too reliable along with excessive sustain, Rengar still has too much upfront burst, as does Twitch, etc. By contrast, Evelynn, who has access to camouflage, is largely considered to have sufficient, even slightly excessive counterplay. It is the in-combat capabilities of offending stealth champions that therefore need to be addressed with more counter potential, rather than their invisibility or camouflage.

Best Ekko NAJan 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Sure, but literally nothing that you have just said takes into account what I have said in response to your OP. Additionally, this assessment is itself flawed, since stealth champions do have counters to their other mechanics. If you want to talk about stealth-specific counters, and the lack of them, you'd also have to bring up the lack of anti-shield tools, anti-blink tools, anti-immunity tools, anti-untargetability tools, and so on. Moreover, as I specified in my above comment, the entire purpose of invisibility is to defer counterplay to a different part of combat. In this respect, it is no different from other mechanics that do the same for the flow of combat, including untargetability or shields. What this means is that stealth champions need to have additional counterplay around their stealth, notably in combat, and the current issue with stealth champions is that their counterplay in the middle of combat is lacking. Akali has damage that is too reliable along with excessive sustain, Rengar still has too much upfront burst, as does Twitch, etc. By contrast, Evelynn, who has access to camouflage, is largely considered to have sufficient, even slightly excessive counterplay. It is the in-combat capabilities of offending stealth champions that therefore need to be addressed with more counter potential, rather than their invisibility or camouflage.

For starters, you can't use shields in your argument because that in itself is also another problem child in the field of balance for League of Legends right now. While Riot toned it down, Ardent Censor is still a power house item for most Supports. As a matter of fact, shield items are taking over the meta for AD Carries with the appearance of double Relic Shield bottom lanes... after all, with the domination of Stealth, what more could an AD Carry ask for than a big fat ass shield and sustain for doing nothing except the usual farming?

As for one hitting enemies, a ton of things in Season 3 could LITERALLY one hit you (Nidalee Spear, Veiger ultimate, Leblanc W.. almost anyone with a DFG had the possibility to 1 hit you when they had a lead) and that didn't make them unbalanced. What makes lethal damage unbalanced is when there is no counter play to it and someone standing behind you clicking a button and killing you, while you have 0 means of removing their stealth, is as little to counter play as there gets. You can dodge a Nidalee spear, even from the fog of war. You cannot however, dodge a champion who can walk through wards unseen, right in front of your face, and 1 hit you before you even knew he was there. If you know he's there due to precautionary measures (pink ward identifying the enemy), the amount of damage the enemy does means nothing.

Let's be realistic here, the enemy still has plenty of opportunities and areas to gank you from because there's a limit to 1 pink ward per player. You cannot pink ward the entire map. This is where the skill factor comes into play with knowing where the enemy is and tracking him. This is something that is even present now, but it's ultimately meaningless (especially in Kha'zix case), because you cannot do anything about it, even if you know the champion was there.

So no, I don't believe that damage is the problem. STEALTH is 100% the problem.

Teridax68Jan 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-21T03:41:07.988+0000)

For starters, you can't use shields in your argument because that in itself is also another problem child in the field of balance for League of Legends right now.

Literally any part of League can be cited as a balance problem at one point or another in its development. Moreover, this same argument applies even more so to many of the counters you cited in the OP: Grievous Wounds, for example, is directly responsible for inflating a lot of healing, and the introduction of Bramble vest as an early counter item has severely affected sustain-dependent top laners. Crowd control as a counter to mobility counters immobility even harder, which is why so many fighters struggle in a CC-saturated environment. Similarly, Tenacity messes up combo-based champions who rely on their CC windows to land their full abilities, which is why uncounterable CC has become so prevalent. Even resists are a major reason why tanks are so overbearing against non-marksmen, because they're pushed up against anti-resist items like Last Whisper and Void Staff, making it excessively difficult for champions who don't build those items to damage them substantially in time. True sight itself had disastrous consequences for stealth champions, as it barred them from high-level play due to the ease with which a single item could nullify a large portion of their power. That is why those counters have been toned down.

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-21T03:41:07.988+0000)

As for one hitting enemies, a ton of things in Season 3 could LITERALLY one hit you (Nidalee Spear, Veiger ultimate, Leblanc W.. almost anyone with a DFG had the possibility to 1 hit you when they had a lead) and that didn't make them unbalanced.

It made those champions unhealthy, which is why literally all three of those mechanics you mentioned got changed with the fundamental goal of no longer one-shotting champions. Similarly, stealth champions have much more to their balance than just stealth, which is why I think it makes no sense to imagine that stealth is the only reason behind Akali or Vayne's problems.

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-21T03:41:07.988+0000)

What makes lethal damage unbalanced is when there is no counter play to it

That is what I am trying to tell you: again, counterplay cannot be boiled down to just one action, and in the case of a stealth champions it involves not only their stealth, but also their damaging abilities. Yet again, Evelynn is a prime example of a healthy stealth champion, as her damage is conditional and risky enough for her to present plenty of opportunities for her targets to fight back, even if she can camouflage. In the end, invisibility simply gives a champion more agency over when and where they can strike, without affecting them in the middle of trying to kill you. If you are getting killed without counterplay then, it is because they managed to kill you without giving you options to fight back while you are fighting them.

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-21T03:41:07.988+0000)

This is something that is even present now, but it's ultimately meaningless (especially in Kha'zix case), because you cannot do anything about it, even if you know the champion was there.

You may not be able to know when Kha with evolved R will strike you, but you will still have to fight him when he goes in to kill you. Unless he is extremely fed, you will not die the instant he gets within range, which means you will, or at least should have an opportunity to fight back. If you consistently do not have such an opportunity, that is where there is a problem.

[{quoted}](name=Best Ekko NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kwyfUgTv,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-21T03:41:07.988+0000)

So no, I don't believe that damage is the problem. STEALTH is 100% the problem.

Nothing in your post disproves damage being the real issue, nor does your reply even address it with respect to your problem champions (which ones are those, by the way?). Moreover, it feels like you are willing to accept a League in which one-shots are common, but not one where stealth champions can operate functionally. From the Season 3 examples you picked, it feels like your opinions on counterplay and stealth are several seasons behind, and so in a manner that is particularly fixated on stealth, as opposed to the many other issues that affect the balance of certain specific stealth champions. I don't know how you can expect to convince anyone with this kind of reasoning.

OG OriannaGrandeFeb 1, 20181 votes

YES, Stealth is stupid. I permaban Kha'Zix lately, as if he gets out of control, it is impossible to counter him. I mean, they also improved his evolved R, where he is now constantly invisible passively in bushes. You can't do anything against a fed Kha, the game becomes so unfun to play.