So instead of being megacancer kogmaw is now semi-balanced cancer

Tychusfindlay918·Feb 23, 2018·26 votes·1,235 views

Fun stuff.

Just had to buff his W, nothing else.

Couldnt buff his R, Q, E, nope, had to be his W.

63 Comments

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 23, 201824 votes

"So instead of being megacancer kogmaw is now semi-balanced cancer"

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/criminal-case-grimsborough/images/c/c6/Confused_Nick_Young.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/562?cb=20160131182757

So you admit he's decently balanced but still tryna find a reason to cry.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 23, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Piccaboo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ksjOupGq,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-02-23T03:45:04.963+0000)

"So instead of being megacancer kogmaw is now semi-balanced cancer"

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/criminal-case-grimsborough/images/c/c6/Confused_Nick_Young.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/562?cb=20160131182757

So you admit he's decently balanced but still tryna find a reason to cry.

His playstyle is aids, his numbers are slightly less aids, what is there to be confused about?

Its like malzahar, he got nerfed so many goddamn times but he's still cancer because they kept his passive and R, but the numbers just arent there for him.

The Blue RajahFeb 23, 20188 votes

What exactly is aids about him? That he has a lot of damage? It’s not like he has no weaknesses, he’s squishy and immobile.

What was making him so awful before was that he was overtuned and frozen mallet, but now his numbers are balanced and frozen mallet got nerfed for ranged users, so what’s the problem?

Tychusfindlay918Feb 23, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Blue Rajah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ksjOupGq,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T04:45:31.311+0000)

What exactly is aids about him? That he has a lot of damage? It’s not like he has no weaknesses, he’s squishy and immobile.

What was making him so awful before was that he was overtuned and frozen mallet, but now his numbers are balanced and frozen mallet got nerfed for ranged users, so what’s the problem?

"squishy"

good meme he builds wits end and mallet, relative to other ADCs hes actually pretty tanky.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20186 votes

And he falls off late game because he has no penetration item and instead is pretty much forced to buy defensively oriented items.

Edit: Apparently after the nerfs kog'maw's winrate shifted back to how they have traditionally been. Previously at 7% his winrate was lowest at at the late game.

AhristocatsFeb 23, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ksjOupGq,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T06:13:46.407+0000)

And he falls off late game because he has no penetration item

it doesn't matter you won't have 300 armor and 300 mr, mr cannot be massively bought which is why he won't fall off in late game

just like corki not building any penetration and dealing 1k crit per autoattacks in lck/lcs in every game

Kog deals just too much damage to need penetration, his Q also gives him 28% armor/mr shred

his late game is insane

MuffledGarbageFeb 23, 20183 votes

Who the FK downvoted you for saying this?

Jeez, do people think Kog is ACTUALLY balanced?

[sg-lux-2]

AhristocatsFeb 23, 20183 votes

you should not pay attention to downvotes when reading me i had people recently telling me that they would downvote me on sight until i leave the boards so

i don't really care since i know i'm right

MuffledGarbageFeb 23, 20181 votes

Makes me wonder what kind of weirdos would stalk you [sg-lulu]

jokes aside, that's pretty fked up.

nelogisFeb 23, 20184 votes

wait what?

Kog has always been a late game monster. As long as there are 1 or 2 guys that protect him he will shred your team down.

Kog alongside Jax, Nasus, Kayle and Vayne have been the most late game thing there is (well that was the case before they fucked up the game pacing of course)

What do you mean his late game is weak?

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20181 votes

He hasn't been since his rework. His Win rate for a very long time (roughly the revert) has been at its worst in the late game where as it is best in the mid game. He shifted closer to Craven in terms of scaling and away from Jinx/ vayne/ twitch

nelogisFeb 23, 20181 votes

Mid game?

You seriously believe he is as strong as Corki / Draven / Graves in the damn mid game?

No he isn't

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20182 votes

He damn sure was up until this patch. But no one wanted to check WHEN he was strong, just that he was strong.

You can even look at pro-play from 8.1-8.2. Casters regularly (especially when paired with Azir) would state "You pick kogmaw for the mid game and azir takes over late".

He was a mid game adc because he spiked harder than any other ADC at one - two items. The nerfs shifted his power away, but every stat website, every pro game, and even look at what kind of items in the late game shut him down like Randuins and Adaptive helm.

nelogisFeb 23, 20181 votes

http://euw.op.gg/champion/kogmaw/statistics/adc https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/KogMaw/ http://champion.gg/champion/KogMaw/ADC https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/de/champions/stats/kogmaw http://www.lolking.net/champions/kogmaw#/statistics

Every single site says that he has the highest winrate by 40min + (other than league of graphs which says he has a drop at 50min +)

So what? Just because some casters said that he is picked because of mid game he is mid game now? They are freaking out because Tristana "buffered" (yeah sure he just randomly activated it) some random cc.

A Kog with Guinsoos vs:

Draven with BT Corki with Triforce Graves with DD

Everyone from that list WILL FUCK HIM UP in every single scenario.

From which site do you have the info that he is strong mid game?

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20181 votes

And again, and again, and again....

ALL OF THESE ARE 8.3!

The previous 18+ patches showed an opposite graph.

I disregard Champion.gg because their own graphs don't make sense. His winrate over all goes up when nerfed? People with more mastery on the champion win less games?

I got all of the stats I have been mentioning from Op.gg primarily. Again, over the course of several months of ACTUALLY looking at what his stats were leading up to the nerf.

nelogisFeb 23, 20182 votes

Dude, what kind of logic is that?

"Yeah BEFORE the nerfs he was mid game and total trash late but AFTER the nerfs his late game got god-like again".

If he was strong mid game then his late was even more nuts.

He is and always has been a late game champion.

And it doesn't matter if its 8.3 or 8.4 his right clicks got buffed so he is overall better in all stages of the game, still the best in late tho!

Show me proof of these graphs that he actually was best mid game and fell off like panth in the late game otherwise I wont belive it.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20181 votes

1: I even acknowledged that his winrate shifted to be better in the late game after the nerfs. Idk why, but I gave possible reasoning elsewhere.

2: Traditionally was a late game champ. Except when he was a mid game.

3: I'll try and hunt some down for you. Unfortunately, the internet archive site seems to struggle with op.gg. Recent captures showing 7.24 and then 7.16.

nelogisFeb 23, 20181 votes

I'm waiting for the proof dude

Before that I aint believing it (nothing personal)

Sp33d Zer0Feb 24, 20181 votes

Sigh. Even though I have seen the graphs myself and posted them on sites like reddit when I had these debates with people over there, the lack of a history system for op.gg and the limitations for webarchive websites is giving me nothing. If you would like I can link you to the reddit posts where I discuss this more?

(web archive denying the graphs from back then https://web.archive.org/web/20170820135318/http://www.op.gg:80/champion/kogmaw/statistics/adc)

Sp33d Zer0Feb 24, 20181 votes

Alright, couple of edits: One, the 8.4 update went live, his late game is now lower than his mid game again.

http://na.op.gg/champion/kogmaw/statistics/adc It does however stay near the 49% for everything except the 25-30 mark.

http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=45&season=S8&split=Spring Here are kogmaws win rates in global pro games where the games HAVE been going into late as opposed to early, smaller sample size unfortunately, but still there for you to view.

Other threads from reddit I previously mentioned where you can see the debate with other people being able to view the at the time stats and double check it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7w5elb/why_when_kogmaw_see_some_plays_he_is_instantly/dtymon7/?context=3

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7w5elb/why_when_kogmaw_see_some_plays_he_is_instantly/dtyn3zt/?context=3

Wish I could find better sources for you.

nelogisFeb 24, 20181 votes

Thx for the time you put in!

OP.GG truly says that he has a better win rate at 25 min ish (though it also states that his winrate increases in late game again, would be interesting to see the stats for 50 min+ but oh well)

This could indicate that his core design is still late game, because other ADCs that are mid game tend to fall off late game.

Other thing about OP.GG is that this site only takes data from Korea so other sources similar to this one would be appreciated but I checked the other sites and they haven't released the data for 8.4 yet.

It's not really that good to mix stats from soloQ and Worlds. They are pretty much playing a different game (by the way I can't find the "winrate by game length" graph on the second link I don't know why maybe I'm blind)

The reddit sources are kind of wonky, since there are also people that say no to your statement which also had the ability to double check, maybe on other sites other than OP.GG (maybe this is just a Korea thing?)

Also the link on the second comment doesn't work for me (shows that nothing is archived)

I'm going to wait for other sites to show the data for 8.4 before I agree with you because only OP.GG which focuses on Korea and Worlds data is kinda.. ehh... if you know what I mean.

no to toxicFeb 24, 20181 votes

Saying Jax and Nasus are late game monsters disproves your argument by proxy congrats

nelogisFeb 24, 20181 votes

They WERE late game monsters back in season 4

Then Riot fucked up the game pacing and now everything is early game

no to toxicFeb 24, 20181 votes

You did it again. Just said that they aren´t late game monsters anymore.

nelogisFeb 25, 20181 votes

Jax is definetly no longer a late game monster no, Nasus teamfight got significantly weaker than earlier so only when he spltpushes he becomes that monster again

Kayle gets stunned for her entire ult duration so no she doesn't work in a teamfight either

Kog and Vayne still work because they are ADCs

I was more referring to "they need around 4 items to truly pop off" than their actual late game fantasy. Because right now everyone of those other than Kayle pops off at 1 item

no to toxicFeb 25, 20181 votes

See that´s what I mean all of them reach their highest powerspikes with 1 or 2 items now. Vayne only needs IE and Staticc. Kog`Maw only needs attackspeed item and rageblade to basically reach the most damage. Jax and Nasus only need Triforce and nothing else so they go tank afterwards. Jax and Nasus actually want to end games as fast as possible now since by the time late game has arrived they only have triforce as a damage item wich is not enough to kill someone by then.

Troll for TrumpFeb 23, 20189 votes

No, no he doesn't.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20181 votes

His worst Win rate for the past 18 patches at least has been 40+ minutes at around 42-44% up to the recent nerfs. What would you define as falling off

AhristocatsFeb 23, 20183 votes

http://euw.op.gg/champion/kogmaw/statistics/adc

this is his win rate when he got gutted in 8.3 AND HE STILL has the 5th win rate in late game

kog is just insane, i don't know if you're memeing right now but it would be good if you just flat out admit that you never played against kog in late game to see what he can do

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20181 votes

His worst Win rate for the past 18 patches at least has been 40+ minutes at around 42-44% up to the recent nerfs.

up to the recent nerfs.

As in for some reason, probably because people were required to build more damage because Kog lost so much base, they had to opt for more damage items which scales better for an ADC (shocker).

I even responded to your other post about this exact thing.

His previous graphs looked more like this:

51% - 56% - 53% - 48% - 43%

AhristocatsFeb 23, 20183 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/be4e972da471b58811a7f08578990461.png

they kept building the same (this is a master tier kog main btw) Kog has one unique build he abuses on hit effect and bruiser items

his kit provides so much free shit (%hp damage, Attack speed steroid passively, armor/mr shred) that he can get away by amplifying his damage with guinsoo passive and go for defensive stuff

other adcs will die in 1 sec while he's going to be a tough time for an assassin/bruiser

especially with his W giving bonus range

You have 4 or 5 people telling you that you're wrong but i guess you care too much about memeing

HäxelFeb 24, 20181 votes

sry but you can look up other statisticsites (where does this even say lategame good winrate?). Kog'maw had even on professional a much higher winrate mdigame as lategame. A hypercarry who gets outscaled by crit in the superlategame. Other adcs like twitch, tristana, cait, jinx, vayne, even lucian had pre 8.4 a better lategamewinratio. Kog has this enourmos powerspike with rageblade and his next 2 items make him stronger too but then critadcs gonna get to shine cause a critadc with 70/80% crit and other stats has huge damage. They can get 100% crit and/or get the lw and melt better the tanks with criting to 100% (or 70/80% but crit is beside luck strong). Even a few youtubers made videos around how he he was more of an earlygameadc as a lategameadcs looking from the stats. And what you are talkign with the adc dieing in 1 s? most tiems the adcs hit not each other as they have tanklines between. But the tris jumps into late and crits the kogmaw faster away finishign with a stacked e ult as the kogmaw uses his w rageblade autos. Or the twitch out of the stealth with ult e and a few crits. Both with statiks and ie = huge burst.

no to toxicFeb 24, 20181 votes

Ahh using the retarded way of argumentation. Let my try that. Aatrox Aatrox is just stupid his kit gives him everything a melle wants and it´s all for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE ( unstoppable dash wich is at the same time a knock up like wtf where is the counterplay, he can chooese to never be under 90% health in lane or to burst you with a 3 hit BURST ad steroid, he gets huge amounts of attackspeed for free by using his abilities or passivly auto attacking, he has a FREEEEE guardians angel goddamn free for nothing just in his passive , ap poke on a melle champ so he doesn´t even need to hit you in lane with his autos, burst ap ultimate wich stacks his passive fully so he has alot of attack speed while giving him even more attackpeed and increasing his range to ridiculous levels) just wtf Riot even his bauild path is stupid he can almost build anything and be able to do something with it

CatastropFeb 23, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ksjOupGq,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T06:13:46.407+0000)

because he has no penetration

I don't think Kog has ever had to worry about penetration late game when he's got massive mixed damage + %hp damage at his disposal.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 23, 20182 votes

When you can get to 75% physical and 60% magic reducreduction ignoring passive from randuins and adaptive helm you absolutely do. Your talking bork doing around 1.5% current and his w doing around 2.5% Mac hp pre nerf

DuskDaUmbreonFeb 23, 20181 votes

I mean, it's not like you can two-shot him with almost literally anyone.

Or that he has one of the lowest base healths of everyone...

Potential build does not mean he's suddenly tanky. Just because you can theoretically build item 3110 item 3083 item 3065 item 3742 item 3143 and item 3111 on Sona doesn't mean she's a tank.

And one MR and health-giving time doth not maketh thee a tank.

AhristocatsFeb 23, 20184 votes

no one said anything about kog being a tank

he's tankier than every adc in the game, a pain in the ass to kill, you want to two shot a 3k hp 110 armor 110 mr target that has 710 range, and who kills you in 2 seconds?

go ahead

InfernapeFeb 23, 20183 votes

Why does everything you say have downvotes? You're right.

AhristocatsFeb 23, 20182 votes

read above some people swore to downvote me on sight until i leave the boards

Tychusfindlay918Feb 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ksjOupGq,comment-id=00030000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T20:52:42.439+0000)

read above some people swore to downvote me on sight until i leave the boards

While I don't ALWAYS agree with you, I think that's moronic (Granted I agree with you more times than not).

DuskDaUmbreonFeb 25, 20181 votes

Not my case here. I agree with you sometimes.

I just believe you're wrong about a lot of things.

DuskDaUmbreonFeb 25, 20181 votes

"Tankier" implies a significant difference. As in more than 100 or so HP, or significantly more armor and MR. Which he just doesn't have, generally.

The guy has pathetically low base HP, armor, and MR. He's not reaching 3k/110/110 with anything in a valid build.

At most? He might hit 2k/90/70. But that's with a Mallet and two defensive items. Which means only two aggressive items. Meaning rather lower damage.

He's still pathetically easy to kill once you're in range, even through a Janna or whatever. He does a lot of damage, but he has no survivability except for his team (which is why you're an idiot if you bitch about him and aren't above Plat - teams and peeling don't exist until then). Hence why he shone so much during last Worlds - the meta was hypercarry, enchanter, and 2-3 tanks (with a peeling midlaner), which is basically exactly what Kog'maw wants (he cares less about tanks than the average ADC, and he honestly scales more with the number of peeling teammates than the number of items).

Basically: Play someone who has a gapcloser and you can easily kill him. And, of course, keep pressure up on him early on.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20181 votes

what? 2k is his base hp mallet gives 750 hp

and YES he does build mallet, after guinsoo and on hit effect items also he does build ninja tabi and wit's end and if you add kog's base stats with the resistances he gets from those you will reach 100 do the math yourself

and the reason it's cancer is becuase his damage is still high with that build

Troll for TrumpFeb 23, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Blue Rajah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ksjOupGq,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T04:45:31.311+0000)

What exactly is aids about him? That he has a lot of damage? It’s not like he has no weaknesses, he’s squishy and immobile.

What was making him so awful before was that he was overtuned and frozen mallet, but now his numbers are balanced and frozen mallet got nerfed for ranged users, so what’s the problem?

It's not really Kog's fault, it's just a symptom of supports/peel being overbearing.

saltranFeb 23, 20181 votes

I don't like Kog but the little buff they did was a great move from Rito, som ppl act like if they wanted him to be trash instead of balanced.

SociaI JusticeFeb 23, 20181 votes

if there was a champion that made 1 person on the enemy team afk for the first 10 minutes and then had to afk it self after 10 minutes it would probably be decently well balanced, think people would still have a reason to "cry" about it thought.

SasogwaFeb 23, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=TSM Piccaboo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ksjOupGq,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-02-23T03:45:04.963+0000)

"So instead of being megacancer kogmaw is now semi-balanced cancer"

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/criminal-case-grimsborough/images/c/c6/Confused_Nick_Young.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/562?cb=20160131182757

So you admit he's decently balanced but still tryna find a reason to cry.

Balance is not entirely linked to winrate. Imagine a new champion that rolled a dice at the beginning of the game and 1 to 3 he lost 4 to 6 he won. Perfectly balanced, 50% winrate. Fun and interactive ? Nope.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 23, 20182 votes

Who said anything about win rate?