New jungle screws over any jungler that can't duel at level 2

PapaGreg21·May 17, 2018·93 votes·20,524 views

These changes are so dumb. Who in their right mind is going to play fiddle, rammus, sejuani, amumu or any other weak jungler when you need to fight for scuttle at level 2 or just concede that you will be falling behind the enemy jungler. Warwick was already stupid strong when he wasn't nerfed with all the other press the attack junglers for some bizarre reason. Now I have to ban him or play him every game. What an awful change.

I hope top enjoys their level 3 ganks by whichever team has the stronger dueling jungler while the other one slowly clears their low exp camps and falls behind. Heaven forbid they actually use their free ward so that we didn't have to completely unbalance an entire role.

122 Comments

XxDRAGONsAK47xXMay 17, 201832 votes

Kindred is fucked over the most by this change.

She relied heavily off scuttle early. Now its a major objective in jungle.

Great.

BattalionMay 17, 20183 votes

They.

But yes, it's going to be rough, really rough. As a Kindred OTP, it's really going to be a challenge. Though Riot said that there would be so QoL revolving around Scuttle. Hopefully that doesn't just mean the assist on killing a marked camp; which should've been instated soon after release, not left for 2 years as is.

Im Kinda StupidMay 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

They.

Fix the Loading Screen slice and the Custom Profile Background then get back to me.

LùmenMay 17, 20184 votes

Irrelevant details, Kindred stands for Lamb and Wolf, not just Lamb. very simple, really

The Yetii RiderMay 17, 20181 votes

No, Kindred stands for the original man who cut himself in half. Lamb and Wolf are not individual entities, they are each half of one person. Therefore, the correct pronoun is 'she'.

BattalionMay 17, 20182 votes

They are "The Kindred", the original old man is Death. They are the two halves of Death, the Kindred Spirits; the Eternal Hunters.

Badnik96May 17, 20182 votes

who cares

WimbledofyMay 17, 20184 votes

well you didn't have to take your time to read what they said lol

Drizzt17May 17, 20181 votes

Hey at least kindred can do the rift scuttler fairly easy. Try clearing one as rammus, when the crab doesnt even attack you lmao. I guess whoevers play fid or rammus have to assume they'll be 2 levels behind enemy jungler all game. Thank god Riot nerfed these incredible oppressive junglers with such a LCS pick or ban status /s.

EkyonKunMay 17, 20182 votes

Actually it's pretty easy if you have your CC and smite up. Smite WHILE the scuttle is CC'd, and your smite will do a ton of bonus damage and nearly one-shot scuttle at even level 2-3. So Rammus will taunt -> smite, while fiddles fears -> smite.

Unless...Unless they changed this somehow. Does this no longer work reliably? I haven't been able to test it. I only know this worked pre-scuttle changes. IDK if it'll work still now.

Drizzt17May 17, 20186 votes

Damn I just read it in the wiki you are right, i thought true damage couldnt be amplified, i guess this is one of the exceptions. I feel dumb autoattacking 80 times crab with fiddle now

ApocylipticMay 17, 201829 votes

You don't have to fight for scuttle actually. There's two on the map level 1. You can opt to get the one not being contested by seeing where the enemy jungler starts.

After that, It's competely fair that a duelist early game jungler has an advantage over you well... early. And it's not like you can't do anything. If you know he's on scuttle bot side, that's a gank top side uncontested. Which is extremely powerful. I know in lower MMR's you don't really think or have to worry about counter ganks, but they are a very real thing with proper play. Every gank I make I have to think about if it's being countered. Often times I'll be sitting in a bush to counter a gank myself. It does happen, and when it does, it often ends up in your team getting screwed if you are on the receiving end.

You deserve to be behind a lee sin if you are playing something like sejuani early on. It's just like what laners have to deal with. Sometimes laners have to face a jayce. Obviously you can BEAT the jayce, but it's much harder and not on even footing. That's because his power budget is meant to be strong early.

Feel ApathyMay 17, 20182 votes

So you concede the one on bottom side and then concede or die to the one on the top side, since their mid and top will be stronger than yours when you have a lvl 3 jungler to your lvl 2.

IfnethMay 17, 20186 votes

If they’re taking the bottom Scuttle, then you can take the top Scuttle, since the enemy jungler is bottom. He can’t help his mid or top laner contest.

ValiantKillerMay 17, 201810 votes

{quoted}

These changes are so dumb. Who in their right mind is going to play fiddle, rammus, sejuani, amumu or any other weak jungler when you need to fight for scuttle at level 2 or just concede that you will be falling behind the enemy jungler. Warwick was already stupid strong when he wasn't nerfed with all the other press the attack junglers for some bizarre reason. Now I have to ban him or play him every game. What an awful change.

I hope top enjoys their level 3 ganks by whichever team has the stronger dueling jungler while the other one slowly clears their low exp camps and falls behind. Heaven forbid they actually use their free ward so that we didn't have to completely unbalance an entire role.

Yesterday i cost my team a game because i was dumb enough to pick rammus into graves, thinking i was going to safe farm till 6 but no no the delay in jg change and graves able to farm happily ever after with his strong clears, stupid hp pool that got buffed and ranged attacks he was able to secure his farm, crabs and gank while harsh me from time to time.

BisaknospMay 17, 20184 votes

nice buff for lee and camille i guess

EDIT i meant as far as dueling goes they will both profit because they outduel almost if not all other junglers early

saltranMay 17, 201814 votes

Doesn't Camille has a rough early jungle waveclear?

Spank the FoxMay 17, 201810 votes

Yes, Camille is a champion who always should be invaded because she clears incredibly slow and takes a lot of damage.

Plus her early dueling is a joke

chimp magnetMay 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

nice buff for lee and camille i guess

Didn't lee get an indirect nerf with the ward CD increase this patch? I guess he did.

Warlord ScrapMay 17, 20183 votes

And the removal of trackers knife prior

TempName54846May 17, 201810 votes

camille can duel something at level 2?

EedatMay 17, 20181 votes

Are you nuts? Camille's early game is insanely strong. As far as dueling anyway.

TempName54846May 17, 201812 votes

her early game strength comes from being able to go in and out with her passive shield and poking with her W, this doesn't work in the jungle though.

EedatMay 17, 20189 votes

Not for Lee

Warding Totem

WARD DURATION 60-120 seconds (at levels 1-18) ⇒ 90-180 seconds (at levels 1-18)

***CHARGE TIMER 180-90 seconds (at levels 1-18) ⇒ 240-120 seconds (at levels 1-18) ***

and just to solidify it:

You can no longer own Hunter's Machete, Hunter's Talisman, or their upgrades at the same time as Ancient Coin, Spellthief's Edge, Relic Shield, or their upgrades

So he cant get a Sightstone Period

BestPudgeNAMay 17, 20185 votes

{quoted}

nice buff for

Graves XinZhao Udyr Warwick

BattalionMay 17, 201811 votes

XinZhao Warwick Jax

The trifecta of difficult, high skill floor junglers.

Kill me now.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 17, 20187 votes

Implying the season 7 jungle needed any skill what so ever.

Jaygo41May 17, 20183 votes

At least JarvanIV had to aim his spells to make things happen, those 3 just point, click, and dick you

KetiMay 17, 20183 votes

warwick isn't so strong level 2, and losing AS on machete sucks for him. he got nerfed overall by the patch.

AlienPrimateMay 18, 20183 votes

Laughs in Taric

Risen29May 17, 20184 votes

I don't know if they changes actually took much early game pressure off laners. Other than to reduce the amount of junglers who will gank immediately after their first clear. It still happens, just less junglers are able to hit level 3 and still do it. So rather than prevent first clear ganks, I wouldn't be surprised if it just funnels people towards the few junglers who can still do it.

What it definitely did do was make that pressure more one sided in favor of the team that has the fast/earlygank jungler. The superior early game jungler can now snowball easily against the enemy jungler and then abuse that to start influencing the lanes. Yeah, the jungler may be a level behind compared with what he use to be, but being an impactful lane phase jungler has more to do with having the priority to freely abuse the enemy lanes in 2vs1 situations.

Tank junglers were already in a bad spot, but this makes them worse. Even a farm oriented juggernaut like Shyvana is greatly weakened by these changes. I mean, pretty much any jungler that relies on their ultimate to start ganking is greatly slowed down by these changes.

Rico NastyMay 17, 20184 votes

Just remove scuttle altogether.

ThilmerMay 17, 20183 votes

I knew the Scuttle experience was going to cause mayhem. And I don't even jungler often.

BoulderoxMay 17, 20183 votes

i fear the jungle change will exacerbate the bot lane problem. And force more early pressure champions to push waves and contest scuttler for xp advantage, heck, bot lane could secure it for themselves if the dreaded RNG favors it..

PurgëMay 17, 20181 votes

[deleted]

EkyonKunMay 17, 201814 votes

Ah yes. My favorite stealth junglers are

Rammus Amumu Sejuani Fiddlesticks

DeusVultMay 17, 20181 votes

The game starts with 2 scuttle crabs, 1 topside, the other botside. If you think you can't fight the opposing jungler for scuttle at level 2, then start in the opposite quadrant from him and path to the opposite scuttle.

the 1 scuttle thing becomes and issue after both are killed and only one will respawn, but it will let you know where and your laners should prioritize a shove to help shadow you when you go for scuttle.

Spank the FoxMay 17, 20186 votes

The problem is having to rely on your team now to help you stay relevant. That’s an antithesis to the jungler role, but more importantly, completely unreliable in solo queue.

I can’t get my dumbfuck teammates to spend 60 fucking seconds defending an entrance, let alone leave lane to help me secure or defend a minor jungle objective.

Not even going to bring up midlaners picking up smite.

Exp changes were good. Scuttle forced interactions is dumb.

DeathBurstMay 18, 20181 votes

Oh come on.

You don't have to fight and win for the Scuttle, you can just give it up to the other Jungler. Giving up one camp doesn't mean your entire game is screwed...

Ask any melee Top laner, we had to give up entire waves of minions to ranged laners who harass and poke us for years, and we're still alive.

PapaGreg21May 18, 20182 votes

The difference is that you have a tower to protect you and can grab a few minions under tower. Try playing a level 2 Rammus that is getting invaded in his jungle by a level 4 xin who doesn't allow you to take any of your camps. There is nothing you can do about it at equal levels, nevermind the fact he is getting 2 levels over you early in the game.

Risen29May 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Oh come on.

You don't have to fight and win for the Scuttle, you can just give it up to the other Jungler. Giving up one camp doesn't mean your entire game is screwed...

You don't even play jungle. Stop pretending you know what you're talking about.

You have high elo junglers in this thread and others telling you the exact opposite from real experience. And this is what junglers warned riot would happen before it even hit the PBE. I am amazed at the lack of analytical foresight on the part of the balance team.

DeathBurstMay 18, 20181 votes

The Jungle was nerfed, and you're telling me High MMR Jungle Mains are complaining? Oh, I wonder why...

I mean, when a champion is nerfed, their mains are complaining, and it's easier to swap champions than to swap roles. So of course Jungle Mains are complaining.

And yet, nerfs happen all the time, and usually for good reasons, and all the mains' complaints don't change that. Now bite the bullet and quit whining. I've got no sympathy for someone who pulls off the rank argument and insult the people making the game. Your role is not dead, diversity is not dead, and people who want to play Tank Junglers or whatever will still be able to.

You don't want to believe me? Well, time will tell. Now ciao o/

Risen29May 18, 20182 votes

Your entire post is irrelevent to this thread and only underscores why you have nothing of value to contribute to this discusison. This thread has nothing to do with jungle as a whole being less effective - it's about the fact that the viable champion pool for jungle has been warped so that anyone who isn't a strong dueler at level 2 is screwed over.

This situation doesn't help whining laners like you at all. You're still going to get ganked early and often if the enemy laner chose a better jungler or wins those early trades - but now it will be even worse for you if the enemy jungler gets ahead early because your own jungler will be so shut down that he'll never be able to contest the ganks or even counter-balance the situation with ganks of his own.

This is why so many people are talking about high elo team skirmishes happening over scuttle and mids taking smite - Because they understand the consequences of what happens to the rest of the game if their jungler gets behind that early - They all get screwed over.

DeathBurstMay 18, 20181 votes

We'll see in a couple weeks how the meta has adapted, after people get tired of whining and actually try to learn the new system.

My bet is that the champ pool will be the same, with different champs as top tiers, but the overall pool not affected much. People will still play Rammus, and Sejuani, and Fiddle, and all those weak early game junglers, because people always play plenty more champs than just the top tiers, and this change is far from being the apocalypse it is touted as.

But hey, I'm not the one whining, and I already said all that in my discussion with OP, who was civil enough, long before you started talking to me, so I don't expect you'll see reason now. Keep complaining, I'm sure Rito will listen to you in the end. /s

Risen29May 18, 20182 votes

Handwaving and saying it will all just work out somehow doesn't make it true.

You have no basis for your claims. You have demonstrated you don't understand the jungle role enough to be making these kinds of predictions, as you don't even play it.

DeathBurstMay 19, 20181 votes

I gave concrete arguments, I didn't just handwave it. The fact that you disagree with my arguments doesn't erase their existence.

And I "demonstrated" I don't understand the role only if my arguments are wrong. The only thing demonstrated until now is that YOU disagree with them, not that they are wrong.

So we'll wait and see who's right and who's wrong. That's not handwaving it, that's admitting we won't convince each other.

As for the fact I don't play Jungle. Not in Ranked this Season, that's true. But I do play it in Normals and I did play it in Ranked in past Seasons. Plus, if we could only talk about what we play, a lot less people would be talking about ADC, right?

Risen29May 19, 20181 votes

You gave nothing to back up your opinions and predictions in the post I was responding to. All you offered was "i think it's all going to work out because people will adapt and then it will be the same". You have no logical basis for being able to argue why we should expect that to happen. Nor have you been able to disprove the arguments of those who say it's a problem.

Just handwaving and saying "it's all going to work out, we'll see", doesn't prove or disprove anything. All you are demonstrating with your statement is that you truly don't know what you're talking about when it comes to jungle dynamics and picks.

DeathBurstMay 19, 20181 votes

In the post you replied to:

Giving up one camp doesn't mean your entire game is screwed... Ask any melee Top laner, we had to give up entire waves of minions to ranged laners who harass and poke us for years, and we're still alive.

And in the post juuuust below, if you had take the smallest amount of time to look for it (Xin being an example early jungler versus Rammus):

First important point is warding: if you see Xin coming for an invade early enough, your laners can collapse on him. Even if they don't have lane priority, if Xin is coming at you in your own Jungle, your laners should be able to get there first, and quickly enough.

Second point is, even if he can beat you, he can't be everywhere on the map at the same time: if you know where he will be invading you, you can just go to his jungle on the opposite side, and you can clear it before he comes back. With a bit of luck, he may even wait for you in bush and waste his time since you'll never actually come.

Or in tl;dr form: giving up an early advantage is something laners have had to do for years, and it's a normal consequence of a bad match-up, not an automatic loss. It won't kill Junglers either.

Risen29May 19, 20181 votes

You keep making bad arguments because you don't play jungle or have any idea how it works.

You can't farm from behind as a jungler like you do in a lane. You have no lanes to freeze or turret to run to. And the worst you're going to lose is gold, you still get EXP for minions you dont last hit near you. Your entire jungle becomes the enemy's to farm if you are behind on a poor early dueler. And if you don't get camps, you not only miss out on gold but EXP. Which further solidifies the enemy's ability to control your jungle and gank lanes freely.

It's not like just missing one camp. It's more comparable to getting zoned out of your CS in the lane entirely, losing not just gold but EXP. You will be useless and potentially cost your team the game if you were to lose lane that hard. But because of the way lanes are set up its much harder for you to completely lose your lane so hard you don't even get EXP from level 2.

DeathBurstMay 20, 20181 votes

OP already made this argument and I already replied to it. Why don't you read previous posts before commenting?