@meddler: please explain why you think you need to nerf cleaver, only referring to melee champions

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He's going to say Darius. You know this right?

if anyone on the live balance team actually sees darius as a problem right now, im going to lose all faith in them.

hes not a bad champion. hes pretty decent still even if he took a hit with the tank update. but hes not even close to being a problem.

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yes the main users are with very front loaded combo's that allow them to get a large amount of damage out, then proc stoneplate to survive standing in the middle of the enemy team to get a second combo out, while they are there, they auto(with the reduced damage)spreading the black cleaver stacks to anyone within the aoe of the hydra

the argument that this is a response to a loss of another item is pretty bunk as well since neither of these champs were common picks before the release of this item, and they have become common (if not dominating picks and maybe make the S tier right now) since then in the LCS

This probably isn't enough of a justification for the nerf to black cleaver if it stays at 0.5 seconds but in general it isn't healthy how powerful black cleaver is at shredding armor, and nerfing it for ranged champions only will still mean that a tank is getting ripped to shreds by the adc because their armor was reduced, but now its a bruiser or melee adc applying the stacks

there are alternatives to this.

adding an internal cooldown to cleaver stacks entirely conflicts with the purpose the item was designed for. its supposed to be an item for physical damage casters who can stack up the cleaver debuff faster than auto attacking ranged carries who are limited by their attack speed (at least that was the idea before lucian was released).

this includes champions like

instead of shredding armor, they could change cleavers debuff to grant the same amount of armor penetration against the target affected by the stacks.

this would allow them to do things like make the debuff only half effective for ranged champions.

a melee champion would gain 5% armor pen per cleaver stack against the target, while a ranged champion gains 2.5% per stack.

this would reduce the synergy that adc are receiving while making the item just as effective for melee bruisers. it would also make the item itself not as good on anymore. and reduce midgame damage of adc against tanks off cleaver alone.

it would also reduce the impact on armor scaling in tank kits and items like and

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Havent you watched jarvan in comp play with stoneplate + locket + his shield literally tanking whole team damage and living with 50% hp?

Stoneplate probably needs a nerf (along with locket) but then again so does cleaver, theres just so many overpowered items in the game atm.

so hes tanking a whole team for a couple of seconds.

whats the issue? he also doesnt deal damage during that time since stoneplates active has a self inflicting 60% damage debuff attached to it.

if hes just tanking with stoneplate, then whats the problem? thats what the item is made for.