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Garens mark has a couple of problems

Critmaster Garen··7 votes·3,101 views

i seems rather... random. and it seems like he has no control over it.

  • does it have limited range or does it work global?
  • what happens if the mark applies to a low priority target, like that thresh who got the most recent kills by random lasthits, while the adc did 90% of the damage and didnt get many kills off it? (rare but situations like these happen)
  • what happens in a teamfight when kills are exchanged and the mark possibly jumps from one target to the next? hes just about to finish the guy with the mark, then a kill causes it to jump to the next opponent?
  • what happens if the mark applies to a champion he simply cant fight or reach? like kallista or an adc protected by a janna? ther eis a bunch of champions that can kite him pretty much indefinitely. here just a few examples Ashe Anivia Caitlyn Ezreal Ryze Lucian those are just a bunch i noticed while looking through the champion pool.

there are too many random factors playing into the way the target is chosen for my taste.

imo he should be able to chose his mark himself, but put heavy restrictions onto the ability to change it instead. for example, he cant change his mark until he has killed (and dealt justice to) the current one.

or there is an exceptionally long cooldown to the ability to switch the mark, so he cant change it willy nilly in a teamfight. and the enemy team can paly around it by protecting the marked target.

also, reading all these changes it sounds nice on the surface. but there is little chance that you added this mechanic to his kit without removing something in return. please be honest and tell us where you made cuts in his kit for this gimmick.

21 Comments

RiotMeddler11 votes

Villainy's global. It's certainly possible that an enemy might end up picking a lot of killing blows and so be the Villain despite not being a great target, as per your Thresh example, that's something we feels appropriate though. One of the goals with Villainy is to sometimes give Garen another choice to make in combat - do I go for the Villain or do I go for another target who's a higher priority for me, but who I might be less effective against?

Villainy's also set up so it won't change mid combat, sudden change of Villain screwing you over shouldn't be a thing. It's definitely possible, and will likely be relatively common, that Villainy ends up on a champion Garen has trouble reaching. Something we want to do here is make it much more rewarding for Garen's team to help him get onto targets he can't easily reach himself. At present that's often not a good call, you're better off just leaving Garen to his own devices and saving CC to set up or peel for other allies.

As far as other changes go this stuff should be hitting the PBE pretty soon. Biggest changes from memory are lower early game damage and higher late game damage.

Matezoide1 votes

Ah, good. So i dont have to worry about that bot lane Janna getting the villain title when i am about to smite that Noxian Scum Darius with my True Damage of Demacian Righteousness.

Anyway Meddler, would you mind answering a few concerns i have with the Mord change?

What if Mord is on a solo lane and Ws himself? Will it deal damage?

What if he Ws a Minion? Will he need the Minion's W to deal the damage?

What if his W'ed ally dies? Will Mord be able to deal damage with W by himself?

I know you are a pretty busy guy and this is the wrong thread, but i am pretty worried about Mord's ability to go solo :<

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Villainy's global. It's certainly possible that an enemy might end up picking a lot of killing blows and so be the Villain despite not being a great target, as per your Thresh example, that's something we feels appropriate though. One of the goals with Villainy is to sometimes give Garen another choice to make in combat - do I go for the Villain or do I go for another target who's a higher priority for me, but who I might be less effective against?

Villainy's also set up so it won't change mid combat, sudden change of Villain screwing you over shouldn't be a thing. It's definitely possible, and will likely be relatively common, that Villainy ends up on a champion Garen has trouble reaching. Something we want to do here is make it much more rewarding for Garen's team to help him get onto targets he can't easily reach himself. At present that's often not a good call, you're better off just leaving Garen to his own devices and saving CC to set up or peel for other allies.

As far as other changes go this stuff should be hitting the PBE pretty soon. Biggest changes from memory are lower early game damage and higher late game damage.

i hope these changes dont punish him for building offense though. is is crit scaling still in place, and will he take cuts for itemizing heavy into damage as compared to his live status?

the way i usually like to play him is just building enough defense to properly survive a skirmish, but end up building 3 or 4 offensive items on him (including cleaver).

building full tank + cleaver felt always less effective or interesting than itemizing into damage on him.

RiotMeddler7 votes

Crit scaling is getting removed from Garen. As far as offensive items go there's a new one that should be hitting PBE today that's intended to be a strong choice on juggernauts and other champs that build a mixture of health and defense. It's an alternative form of Ravenous Hydra called Titanic Hydra, which includes health in its build path instead, with an active that scales in damage based off the user's max health.

Hellioning2 votes

That sound you hear is the sound of ADC mains wailing in fear.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

{quoted}

Crit scaling is getting removed from Garen.

ya, thats what i feared. hes going to deal more damage to tanky targets through % damage, if theyre marked, but hes losing the ability to really itemize into damage and fight and quickly take out squishy targets.

i just hope the new items are worth it.

{quoted}

That sound you hear is the sound of ADC mains wailing in fear.

adc have a base mr of 30. true damage on the ult is less noticable against them as against tanks, or other bruisers who might have a hexdrinker in their inventory. i rather have the ability to build ghostblade/i.e. on garen than deal true damage with my ult when it comes to fighting adc.

plus, early game nerfs in addition to removing thornmail rush as an option means, adc now have an easy time laning aginst him.

MrBuffington11 votes

{quoted}

Crit scaling is getting removed from Garen.

Riot should give you a free name change....

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

Crit scaling is getting removed from Garen. As far as offensive items go there's a new one that should be hitting PBE today that's intended to be a strong choice on juggernauts and other champs that build a mixture of health and defense. It's an alternative form of Ravenous Hydra called Titanic Hydra, which includes health in its build path instead, with an active that scales in damage based off the user's max health.

Riot... TahmKench I love you...

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Villainy's global. It's certainly possible that an enemy might end up picking a lot of killing blows and so be the Villain despite not being a great target, as per your Thresh example, that's something we feels appropriate though. One of the goals with Villainy is to sometimes give Garen another choice to make in combat - do I go for the Villain or do I go for another target who's a higher priority for me, but who I might be less effective against?

Villainy's also set up so it won't change mid combat, sudden change of Villain screwing you over shouldn't be a thing. It's definitely possible, and will likely be relatively common, that Villainy ends up on a champion Garen has trouble reaching. Something we want to do here is make it much more rewarding for Garen's team to help him get onto targets he can't easily reach himself. At present that's often not a good call, you're better off just leaving Garen to his own devices and saving CC to set up or peel for other allies.

As far as other changes go this stuff should be hitting the PBE pretty soon. Biggest changes from memory are lower early game damage and higher late game damage.

im concerned about something else. you said his early game is going to get cuts.

but how will this affect matchups that are already not in his favour? what happens if i have to face that gnar in my lane? its already close to impossible not to get forced out and lose to constant poke and kiting.

i feel like while garen has a handful of strong matchups, he has an equal amount where hes at a severe disadvantage. whats going to happen in those situations?

Critmaster Garen5 votes

Q - Decisive Strike: (Nerf) Silence Duration 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 >>> 1.5 all ranks E - Judgment: (Added) Garen now moves 20% slower while moving toward champions he’s hitting with Judgment

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/259/943/694.png

Wingling1 votes

Don't forget no more tenacity!

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget no more tenacity!

no more tenacity, no more ghostblade mobility, no more silence, and a slow against champions now. basically gutted in terms of sticking power. the reason why he never made it far in the first place up until this season where he was finally in a rather decent spot.

and for what? a situational damage boost.

just scrap the rework please, if you want to actually help him out. the items should be enough for those who actually want to build him tanky.

edit.: on second thought, keep the new (old) w passive. thats about it.

planters1 votes

I like how you failed to mention garen has always moved 20% slower towards enemies, and they're removing that to only when he going towards enemies so that this is a very situational buff

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I like how you failed to mention garen has always moved 20% slower towards enemies, and they're removing that to only when he going towards enemies so that this is a very situational buff

he moved 20% slower through minions. and that was intended as a mechanic for the early lane phase so he couldnt chase down/kite champions through creepwaves too easily. and it sucked, because it was as anoying lategame as it was early. you scratched a monster during a jungle chase or a minion in a teamfight, and you lost all ability to stick.

nerfing his movement while he spins on champions. this is a whole other level of stupidity. its like they dont want him to be able to actually get in ranage of a target and then stick to it.

it also cripples his ability to use the spin on multiple targets. you cant move around very well anymore to keep 2 people in range of the spin at the same time.

i also didnt mention that they removed the tenacity from his w.

planters1 votes

valid point but im waiting to see the actual results myself. The biggest thing that i have with all the complaints is that everyone says "its such a massive nerf" and it doesnt seem like that massive a nerf to me. In reality the key flaws of garen still exist still kitable still requires flanking, but now he gets, theoretically, more damage. So until we get PBE feedback I would say hold off on judgement, yes pun intended, of garen's E and the rest of his kit.

Pyrodinium1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kncsizQN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-08-04T21:21:33.291+0000)

(Added) Garen now moves 20% slower while moving toward champions he’s hitting with Judgment

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/259/943/694.png

Yeah, it's a pretty hamfisted change.

But for what it's worth, he will only move slower while hitting an enemy with the skill, so if his movement speed is higher he should catch up to them again like some sort of bladed yo-yo.

Pyrodinium1 votes

And he will also not be slowing down while leading them (and thus moving away from them).

Cenobite Azaziel4 votes

Why implement a mechanic that is negative for someone that is snowballing in the game? What is the counterplay? "Don't get kills or garen will shred you like you have no armor."

Meep Man2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cenobite Azaziel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kncsizQN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-04T19:45:03.799+0000)

Why implement a mechanic that is negative for someone that is snowballing in the game? What is the counterplay? "Don't get kills or garen will shred you like you have no armor."

Its anti-snowballing. Yes. But is that a bad thing? Especially on a champion like Garen who can't just click on you from a distance. Garen has to commit to do these things.

Matezoide2 votes

Yes, i can definetly see myself about to execute someone with my true damage, only to have the mark disapear because the enemy ADC on the other side of the map managed to get a kill.

Hopefully they will, at least, add a ''The Villain will not change if Garen has damaged it in the last [X] seconds'' clause, or something to help it's reliability.

Especially since the notes stated that Garen's early game is getting nerfed.

InHaruhiWeTrust1 votes

I think it is obvious that rioters haven't played smite before because this new passive is very similar to the god kali, who i think has the worst passive ever put into a moba. she marks a target at random. Kali gains a Physical Penetration bonus against that god, and if she lands the killing blow, she heals for 80% of her maximum Health and recieves a +25% gold bonus. A new Death Mark is selected any time her current target dies, or if Kali dies it is set to whoever last hit her. if you have ever played kali then you would soon see how terrible this passive is. unlike kali garen is tanky and doesn't depend on the killing the enemy to be able to fight, but both cannot control who gets the mark and both are will have to be balanced around the optimal circumstance. if her marks line up perfectly for her she can easily 1v5 an enemy team. however, the chances of that happening are so low its not ever worth giving it a number, but even though she almost never gets that situation she must be balanced around it because there is still a chance.

the problem with garens new ult passive is that it will be extremely OP in the extremely unlikely chance that everything lines up(because it is random), but completely useless when it doesn't line up at all. if it goes anything like a game playing kali then 80% of the time it does almost nothing for you aside from a little bonus dmg. But, even though it will be mostly worthless(ex. mark is in another lane, they are out of reach, it's on a bad target .etc) garen will have to be balanced with the "optimal" situation in mind.

in conclusion giving a champ a huge strength that the have zero control over is a bad idea. also, this a jg passive not a lane passive and it will all but complete make him unable to chose where he ganks because the mark will chose for him. this passive looks like a balancing nightmare just like kali's is for her.

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