everyone just seems to argue, that either the new jungle item shouldnt be released, or that it should replace the old one.
theyre two entirely different items, and its not like you can stack them. so whats the problem in just having both?
am i missing something obvious here?
Critmaster Garen15 votesap champions are so diverse, that the notion of having 1 item for all ap junglers is kindof ridiculous.
you have everything between ap bruisers, tanks and mages who profit from ap and cdr.
magus is clearly the better item for mage junglers like fiddle, karthus and other similar champs, while runeglaive is better on nidalee, elise, eve etc.
cinderhulk and juggernaut both were designed to benefit the same type of champions. but magus and runeglaive both appeal to entire different types of champions, even though theyre both ap items.
but the real problem is, i absolutely see no point in removing either. even if just 2 or 3 champions in the game profit from magus over runeglaive, it would still be worth keeping.
MacbethAndCheese4 votesIf the two of the items were out at the same time, you would see nidalee's still going for magus. Nidalee scales grossly with ap so the extra 40 is nice, and tear+magus is a really nice combo compared to runeglaive+morello/athene imo
Critmaster Garen13 votesi mean except for being ap items, theyre overall benefitting 2 different types of champions.
so whats the point in removing one in favour of the other? its not even like theyre similar items, where one is just generally better than the other, but rather that theyre still completely different items.
its like saying ghostblade and cleaver are the same and only 1 can exist in the game. even though they have somewhat overlapping stats, theyre still 2 entirely different items.
MrBuffington2 votesI think probably because not many junglers would use them. Like, with runeglaive, the only junglers I can think of that would take Magus instead are like, Fiddlesticks, maybe Karthus (but even then the mana regen is really nice), and some manaless AP junglers. The pool of AP scaling champions who actually build damage (as oppose to tank) is still pretty low, I don't think it's wise to just fragment that further. I don't think Riot would hang onto an item just because one or two champions would use it, they're probably trying to compromise. It's not like Fiddlesticks and Karthus aren't mana hungry either. I also expect the item to change a lot before release.
I guess, though, it begs the question of why not just nerf some stats on Magus and give it some mana regen; what junglers are they targetting by giving the item a spellblade effect? Nidalee certainly doesn't need any help in jungle; the spellblade effect works best with champions that build more AP (since it has a scaling), and there aren't many AP junglers that go full damage besides Nidalee, Diana, Fiddlesticks, Karthus (for the latter two, the item already seems suboptimal, so it's not with them in mind). It's strong on Elise and Evelynn early, but they typically go tank after 1-2 damage items, so the scaling is wasted/scales poorly in the late game. I guess we'll see how it changes in upcoming patches.
Critmaster Garen4 votesI think probably because not many junglers would use them. Like, with runeglaive, the only junglers I can think of that would take Magus instead are like, Fiddlesticks, maybe Karthus (but even then the mana regen is really nice), and some manaless AP junglers. The pool of AP scaling champions who actually build damage (as oppose to tank) is still pretty low, I don't think it's wise to just fragment that further. I don't think Riot would hang onto an item just because one or two champions would use it, they're probably trying to compromise. It's not like Fiddlesticks and Karthus aren't mana hungry either. I also expect the item to change a lot before release.
I guess, though, it begs the question of why not just nerf some stats on Magus and give it some mana regen; what junglers are they targetting by giving the item a spellblade effect? Nidalee certainly doesn't need any help in jungle; the spellblade effect works best with champions that build more AP (since it has a scaling), and there aren't many AP junglers that go full damage besides Nidalee, Diana, Fiddlesticks, Karthus (for the latter two, the item already seems suboptimal, so it's not with them in mind). It's strong on Elise and Evelynn early, but they typically go tank after 1-2 damage items, so the scaling is wasted/scales poorly in the late game. I guess we'll see how it changes in upcoming patches.
who actually uses cleaver as effective as garen, pantheon and maybe wukong?
there are not many champions who make that much good use of it, while most others would probably want a last whisper with front loaded armor pen. theyre still keeping the item.
i dont see how this is different. they dont even need to worry about a stacked case scenario like the armor pen items, since jungle items are exclusive.
honestly, the loss of tenacity with juggernaut wasnt that big of a deal, because merc treads arent that expensive or difficult to fit into a build for any champion. the difference between those items is much smaller than between magus and runeglaive.
some unwritten rule, that there can only be 1 ap jungle item doesnt seem like a solid argument to me.
MrBuffington1 votesMaybe not as well, but effectively? Pretty much every AD bruiser can use Cleaver pretty well, as well as some ADCs in certain situations. Probably about as well as Fiddlesticks and Karthus can use runeglaive, especially if it gets changed in future iterations (which is very likely). Honestly, with these changes Fiddle will probably just upgrade to T2 jungle item and then get his Zhonyas faster, so he's not losing out on any bonus gold. If you really want to nitpick as well, machete isn't even a good item for Fiddlesticks, he just gets it because he'd miss gold otherwise. Would you have them create a complete new tree of jungle items for a single champion, even though he gets by just fine (and in fact consistently has one of the highest success rates in high elo) with the current options?
That "unwritten rule" is Occam's Razor. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's purpose is to highlight potential inefficiencies; if you can make a jungle item that can handle all the use cases well enough, why would you have another one? Would you want tailor made items for every single champion and their offbuilds? Honestly Magus was far from a perfect jungle item to begin with, for any champion, and Runeglaive won't be perfect either.
It's the same thing with how you said the loss of juggernaut wasn't that big a deal; if the item is actually well made, only having one won't be a big deal either. The solution is to actually make a good item, not just have every single item they can imagine for the sake of it.
Meep Man1 votesMaybe not as well, but effectively? Pretty much every AD bruiser can use Cleaver pretty well, as well as some ADCs in certain situations. Probably about as well as Fiddlesticks and Karthus can use runeglaive, especially if it gets changed in future iterations (which is very likely). Honestly, with these changes Fiddle will probably just upgrade to T2 jungle item and then get his Zhonyas faster, so he's not losing out on any bonus gold. If you really want to nitpick as well, machete isn't even a good item for Fiddlesticks, he just gets it because he'd miss gold otherwise. Would you have them create a complete new tree of jungle items for a single champion, even though he gets by just fine (and in fact consistently has one of the highest success rates in high elo) with the current options?
That "unwritten rule" is Occam's Razor. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's purpose is to highlight potential inefficiencies; if you can make a jungle item that can handle all the use cases well enough, why would you have another one? Would you want tailor made items for every single champion and their offbuilds? Honestly Magus was far from a perfect jungle item to begin with, for any champion, and Runeglaive won't be perfect either.
It's the same thing with how you said the loss of juggernaut wasn't that big a deal; if the item is actually well made, only having one won't be a big deal either. The solution is to actually make a good item, not just have every single item they can imagine for the sake of it.
People could just get the upgraded machete on Fiddle and then get nothing so as to save gold too if he is only in it for the gold. As long as Fiddle gets his blue, he isnt too bad in mana unless he gets counterjungled.
diamondlight1 votesIt actually works really well on Sivir because of her ricochet. She can debuff many players at once, sometimes a whole team and follow with a boomerang blade that hits even harder as a result.
TheRainInSpain1 votesIf I'm a kiting Marksman with a lot of natural mobility and wanted both Phage and ArPen, I'd take a Black Cleaver over Trinity Force or Last Whisper. The extra health is also useful to stay alive one more auto attack against another Marksman. I'd prioritize Cleaver if there are a lot of immobile mages and bruisers on the enemy team.
Narasimha1 voteswho actually uses cleaver as effective as garen, pantheon and maybe wukong?
Just to jump in to answer this
Darius, Jayce, J4, Sion, Shyvanna, and Lee.
ComannderShepard1 votesalso urgot
Saianna8 votesRiots diversity policy = remove diversity of any kind and force 1 and 1 only build for each role.
Sir Fuzzi2 votesrip atma's and executioner's.
adc didn't need wounds anyway, they're a bunch of smelly non-assassins
Samflash37 votesIt's the Cinderhulk - Juggernaut battle all over again.
Meep Man2 votesWhy not have Juggernaut and Cinderhulk? To be honest, I have no idea, but this is how it goes.
OhthePiplup3 votesWell to be fair, Cinderhulk is an item strictly better than juggernaut, no champions got left out. With magus changes a few junglers will literally be left behind.
Tourian3 votes[{quoted}](name=Boku no Pokemon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kmGKYMf2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-13T06:22:29.560+0000)
Well to be fair, Cinderhulk is an item strictly better than juggernaut, no champions got left out. With magus changes a few junglers will literally be left behind.
Wrong. Bruiser junglers preferred Juggernaut for the tenacity and certain but the tanks had major clear speed issues so the sunfire passive was added simply to improve that, over toned at first but in a good spot now. Similarly AP junglers are having clear and sustain problems which this item will help with.
Rinky Dinky3 votesThat has nothing to do with this.
No one would get juggernaut over cinderhulk. Not a single champion.
This is different. Magus and Rune-watchamacallit do completely different things, and work on completely different champions.
You wouldn't get Jug over Cind on olaf.
You would get magus over rune on fiddlesticks.
LankPants2 votesPeople were making this argument when Cinder came out, they didn't want to lose the tenacity. They all shut up fairly quickly the second Cinderhulk went live.
You would get magus over rune on fiddlesticks.
You'd also get Juggernaut over Cinder on Elise. There is a champ who preferred Juggernaut. In the same vain Fiddle is literally the only champ who'd prefer 40 AP to the proc on the new item.
I'm still not convinced that this item's even worse on Fid though. If you just space in a single auto between your drains you get back a lot of mana. This means you can donate blue to your mid lane without OOMing in the jungle.
ChaoticPinecone2 votesWhat does juggernaught give elise that cinderhulk doesnt? Around level 6, both enchants give the same amount of Health (while Cinderhulk gives more lategame health). 10% CDR might help clears, but so does the immolate damage - youd have a hard time getting more than 1 rotation off in a gank with her long cooldowns, even with 10% more CDR. Tenacity? Sure - ill give you that Elise likes tenacity, but so does every other jungler who thrives in the Cinderhulk meta.
Its not good on fiddle for the same reason that lich bane isnt good on fiddle. Magus gives fiddle 2 things he needs, AP and CDR. RuneGlaive gives less CDR, and has a autoattack passive for a non-autoattacking jungler. His base attack speed and autoattack animation are so slow that if you can chain-drain someone instead, the time it takes to autoattack and get the RuneGlaive proc (around 1 attack per second doing 70 + 30% AP lategame) would do less damage than the drain (1 second does an extra 80 + 45% AP). And thats not taking into account that fiddle's auto range is shorter than the drain range (and much shorter than the channel range).
It might help his clears, but fiddle doesnt need help in clears. He doesnt even need chilling smite, opening the door for blasting smite, since his Fear has a very similar range to smite.
Fiddle has been **THE ** AP carry jungler for a long time. When elise was nerfed out of top, she generally built AP Bruiser. Nidalee just recently got viable with the changes to her cougar and her reset on abilities. There just arent too many AP carry junglers in the game, and an item change that drastically affects one is making people upset.
In comparsion, there are many bruiser/tank junglers who like Cinderhulk, and all of them like Cinderhulk over Juggernaught. Some might prefer Warrior over both, but thats not really part of this discussion.
LankPants1 votesWhat does juggernaught give elise that cinderhulk doesnt?
For literally every champ who isn't Elise, nothing. Elise doesn't really value the Sunfire aura and while she doesn't mind the exess HP it's not as good on her as tenacity and CDR.
I'd say the difference in power between Cinder/Jug on Elise and Magus/Rune on Fid is about the same.
What does Magus give over Runeguard for any champ who isn't Fid? It's better to add a ratio to the vast majority of kits than it is to add 40 AP and 10% CDR. Fid's the only AP jungler I can think of who has major problems procing the spellblade effect in fights.
Elise likes tenacity, but so does every other jungler who thrives in the Cinderhulk meta.
Sej and Gragas both give 0 fucks about tenacity. If I have my W running as Sej and you CC me you just accomplished nothing. You also just wasted your CC onto a target you can't focus down and most likely lost the fight. That's not to say that they can't use it, more just that it makes very little difference to them.
Comparatively Elise needs to AA in order to do damage, when she's CC'd she can't AA.
The point I'm making is that we're both talking about a single champ. We're talking about THE single champ who would prefer the old to the new. Find me another champ who can't utilise the spellblade proc at least to some extent. I'll give you a hint, there isn't one.
It's not like Fid won't have build options anyway. Fid doesn't need to upgrade past blasting smite. He can go for a Morello's straight after to get the exact same stats, or he can rush into Hourglass which IMO has always been better.
ChaoticPinecone2 votesMost junglers require AA in order to do damage, just not the supertanks with massive ults like Naut, Sej, Amumu, and Gragas (though id still argue that most of these champions benefit greatly from autoattacks, their strength is tied to their ults). Elise is not of that variety of jungler - she is more akin to Lee Sin, Udyr, Jarvan, Vi and the like, who require autos to do damage, but never built Juggernaught or any tenacity item (back when Mobis were necessary) but build cinderhulk now.
After Elise's major nerfs, people stopped building tenacity on her with the Ancient Golem. Instead, they went Spirit of the Spectural Wraith and Sorcs to have the same early game power - the change from Juggernaught to Cinderhulk had very little effect on her. It was her repeated nerfs that destroyed her viability, not the change in items.
The problem with the 'single champion' view is that Elise has many comparable picks.m Think of the AP junglers who would use Magus - we have Nid, Diana, and Fiddle. Nid is the poke. Diana is the assassin. Fiddle is the AoE AP carry. I guess you can make an argument for Akali and Karthus, but even Karthus would get more benefit from raw AP than the lich-bane proc, while Akali doesnt need the mana (and would probably sell RuneGlaive for Lich Bane, which provides more single-target damage to synergize with her kit).
We are talking about a smaller champion pool to choose from for AP junglers. it might be 1 champion, but its 33% of the AP junglers.
LankPants1 votesAfter Elise's major nerfs, people stopped building tenacity on her with the Ancient Golem.
After Elise's nerfs people stoped playing Elise. On the rare occation I actually saw an Elise/ played Elise I usually saw Juggernaut. Here's the last competitive Elise game I can remember, it says Cinder because of the way LoL Esports works, but the date is 25/1 which was before Cinder was released. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/spring/matches/week-1/team-solomid-vs-cloud9 People were building Juggernaut on Elise even after the nerfs.
The problem with the 'single champion' view is that Elise has many comparable picks.m Think of the AP junglers who would use Magus - we have Nid, Diana, and Fiddle. Nid is the poke. Diana is the assassin. Fiddle is the AoE AP carry.
You make Fid out as if he's a super unique champ. Outside of the lane phase his basic identity is 'crap Kennen'. The only thing that makes Fid unique is that he's an AP jungler. What he's unique for is just frustrating to have to play against and honestly, not that fun to play.
I'd argue that Elise is a much more unique champ. She has a unique set of combos and a skill-cap that extends beyond 'press W and stand still'.
We are talking about a smaller champion pool to choose from for AP junglers. it might be 1 champion, but its 33% of the AP junglers.
I think there's more than 3 playable AP junglers, and most are better than Fid. I also think that this will help out champs who are borderline competitive like Diana break into the competitive scene and champs who are borderline viable junglers like Akali and Zyra be more viable in solo que.
Meep Man1 votesAfter Elise's nerfs people stoped playing Elise. On the rare occation I actually saw an Elise/ played Elise I usually saw Juggernaut. Here's the last competitive Elise game I can remember, it says Cinder because of the way LoL Esports works, but the date is 25/1 which was before Cinder was released. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/spring/matches/week-1/team-solomid-vs-cloud9 People were building Juggernaut on Elise even after the nerfs.
You make Fid out as if he's a super unique champ. Outside of the lane phase his basic identity is 'crap Kennen'. The only thing that makes Fid unique is that he's an AP jungler. What he's unique for is just frustrating to have to play against and honestly, not that fun to play.
I'd argue that Elise is a much more unique champ. She has a unique set of combos and a skill-cap that extends beyond 'press W and stand still'.
I think there's more than 3 playable AP junglers, and most are better than Fid. I also think that this will help out champs who are borderline competitive like Diana break into the competitive scene and champs who are borderline viable junglers like Akali and Zyra be more viable in solo que.
There are about 9 AP junglers I believe.
LankPants1 votesThat depends on your definition of an AP jungler.
Are we talking about a champ who specifically builds AP, or just a champ who deals significant magic damage?
In the first case I could buy 9 champs, although I think more than 9 are playable 9 viable might be right, maybe a touch low though. In the second case I'd say over 20. In terms of actual use it doesn't matter if I build Devourer and shit tons of AS or if I'm Kayle. Ap bruiser actually play almost the same as tanks, some of them (Amumu) are the same.
The champ's I'd say are legit viable as AP jungles
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Count:12
But there's way more playable champs
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Count:19
That's not to say all these champs are good or should be played with an AP centric build, but they can all clear the jungle with one. Some of the more popular ones like Zyra even fill niches that top AP junglers can't.
If you want to go to deals significant magic damage you can add
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Count:9, although realistically higher because of people like Sej.
Out of all the champs in the first two catagories the only one who can't at all use Runeguard is Fid, Karthus can struggle but he can use it and loves the mana return. It's probably not as good as Magus on Nunu/Malph/Morg/Vlad, but not by much. Every other champ would prefer Runeguard to Magus at least IMO
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI was talking about champions that would buy Runeglaive in the jungle over the other jungle enchants.
Of all the champions you listed, i see (Ekko maybe, but in compettive they all buy Cinderhulk), Fiddle, Karthus, Nid, Akali, Annie, Cass, Galio, Heimerdinger, Karma, Kennan, Morg, Morde (maybe), Vlad, Zyra.
Of the ones who can actually do a first clear without stacking attackspeed and armor i see Fiddle, Karthus, Nid, Cass, Heimer.
Applicative1 votesCompetitive jungle Ekko builds Cinderhulk because Magus is awful for him in the jungle. Give him an option for something that's actually useful to him, like Runeglaive, and a lot will build it instead.
To put it another way: Magus does not help Ekko in the jungle (It just lets him run out of mana faster). Cinderhulk does (health and clear speed). Runeglaive also will (mana sustain and clear speed).
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI dont think that competitive game is a great example, as C9 got wreaked with their Elise jungle. Im talking when she was pick/ban worthy in S4.
And you nailed it - what makes Fiddle unique is that he is an AP jungler, and his kit makes sense in the jungle but not in lane.
Borbland3 votesJuggernaut gave CDR and tenacity. Dont get me wrong, I ofc think Cinderhulk is stronger then Juggernaut, but CDR and tenacity arent something you can easily forget about it.
I liked Juggernaut because I could build it with Tabi Ninjas and have tenacity. Now I'm kinda forced to buy Mercury's vs heavy CC teams.
Lil Soybean3 votesPeople were making this argument when Cinder came out, they didn't want to lose the tenacity. They all shut up fairly quickly the second Cinderhulk went live.
You'd also get Juggernaut over Cinder on Elise. There is a champ who preferred Juggernaut. In the same vain Fiddle is literally the only champ who'd prefer 40 AP to the proc on the new item.
I'm still not convinced that this item's even worse on Fid though. If you just space in a single auto between your drains you get back a lot of mana. This means you can donate blue to your mid lane without OOMing in the jungle.
And then you're 40 AP and 10% CDR weaker when you're actually facing enemies.
Silents4291 votesJungle bruisers/fighters would get Juggernaut if they weren't going to invest in the extra HP for cinderhulk.
Meep Man1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kmGKYMf2,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-06-13T06:58:54.471+0000)
That has nothing to do with this.
No one would get juggernaut over cinderhulk. Not a single champion.
This is different. Magus and Rune-watchamacallit do completely different things, and work on completely different champions.
You wouldn't get Jug over Cind on olaf.
You would get magus over rune on fiddlesticks.
People who need some health but dont want to spend the Cinderhulk gold for the bonus health they wont get want Juggernaut. Not to mention the Tenacity. Basically offensive bruisers wanted Juggernaut.
iStarter2 votesI agree but we all know, Riot will be removing one or the other and most likely it will be magus due to the problems so many junglers had with it. I personally prefer magus and this will definitely be a hit to my playstyle in the jungle with ap champs.
diamondlight2 votesHalving the AP to 40AP and going from 20% CDR to 10% is really crappy. Most AP junglers have low base dmg anyways. This really only works for champs that use lichbane in build, except, this is a much weaker lichbane (by 20% AP).
Current Magus has good stats for a lot of champs IMO, 80AP and 20% CDR are both really good with the money bonuses.
How about figure out an alternative to Poacher, since it's basically completely unused except when trying to troll normals with Shaco.
TwitchInMyPants2 votesI agree with the OP, considering there's a primary AS and a primary AD item a primary AP and a primary on hit mage option both make sense.
I mean really the logic of deleting Magus is like if they decided to delete warrior to add devourer.
Snakezzy2 votesAs my favorite GIF for this situation... http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/538/731/0fc.gif
TotalJerk2 votesI was wondering about this. Why do we HAVE to have 1 tank item, 1 AD item, 1 AS, and one 1 AP item, anyway? Riot wants strategic diversity, why not allow more champions to have more than a single choice when it comes to their jungle item? Part of the problem Juggernaut and the current Magus has is that you were trying to make a one-size-fits-all item for an entire class of junglers.
diamondlight2 votesI played Runeglaive on Elise on PBE and it was actually quite nice. I did wish I had more AP from it and the 20% CDR instead of 10, but it increased my overall clear times and DPS. It also helped with waveclear on either a successful gank or covering a lane during a recall (or respawn). One caveat though! Elise has some new changes to her kit on PBE as well that also might have been contributing significantly, it really is an improvement on her. Hard to separate the two, but I did like Runeglaive on her because she is so AA heavy.
I feel like there should be something at the Sheen level as far as mana regen. It does kind of suck to have to wait for full jungle item to get that component (IE make it more like Bami Cinder -> Cinderhulk). Because of this, It doesn't help that much in early levels, it's really just the Sapphire Crystal part of sheen, which you can buy anyway. It's really the early levels where mana problems tend to occur the most. I pretty much was semi-forced into a Trailblazer path for the sustain, and then I wasn't sure how much Runeglaive was contributing, or just Trailblazer.
Zac: Both Cinderhulk and Magus are viable on him, one for extra tankiness, the other for CDR and being probably the only AP item he buys (except maybe Liandry), of course if you snowball, you might build more (Rylai for instance). Runeglaive won't be viable on him at all, because he isn't a real Lich Bane candidate and Runeglaive even weaker. He doesn't build enough AP to justify it. So then, that leaves him with only one build path, Cinderhulk, reducing the diversity.
Glitter Spitter1 votesthats what im saying, with removing magus you literally say sorry fiddle you are deleted from game, bai bai. im sure there are others but fiddle is the main one the comes to mind
diamondlight1 votesMagus is great on Zac.
SH Azykan1 votes
is what fiddle will leave it at and just go straight into zhonya. It is what a lot of fiddles do now anyways even with magus being a thing...
Silents4291 votesThe same reason we didn't keep both Juggernaut and Cinderhulk
Ataraxas1 votes I WANT MUH JUGGERNAUT BACK AS WELL
DeBeers Only1 votesCrittlesticks master race boys
OyddAWqJ5r1 votesOkay someone better post that goddam Mexican commercial gif right now.
XeroKimo1 votesI'd agree with this, this is like my devvourer and warrior enchancement for ads, do I want the attack speed, or the bonus ad and armor pent, making it like do I want more damage, or more auto reliant, it's the same, using skills to be more auto reliant as an ap jungler or more skill damage reliant
FistOfSharkiesha1 votesNot sure why melee gets 2 straight up offensive items and 1 tank item and mage junglers are stuck with the scraps.
ibeturgood1 votesSo instead of having a jungle item used by 3 champions that want a jungle item used by 5 champions, nice idea Riot!
Teridax681 votesI think the fact that players are asking to keep both Magus and Runeglaive shows that neither enchantment is really the best fit for AP champions in general. Magus is getting replaced because it's an overall lackluster item, one that does nothing to answer the difficulties AP champions face in the jungle (namely mana sustain) and doesn't scale as well as it should into the late game, and while Runeglaive is good on champions like , and even , it's also one that isn't really the best fit for mages, with being the biggest outlier (he doesn't really benefit that much from current jungle items either, though), and unlike 
, which is universally beneficial to tanky champions in and out of the jungle, Runeglaive is likely to not have that much of an impact outside of clears, bar really autoattack-focused champions (even Elise doesn't make the best use of it when in combat with champions). I think the answer shouldn't be to have two separate AP enchantments, but rather to look for a single AP enchantment that relies more on spells, which would greatly benefit mages, obviously, but also likely help out even really autoattack-based AP junglers. Spell power is the defining trait of pretty much any AP champion, so I feel it would make sense to have the AP jungler enchantment build on that, rather than just provide raw stats, as is the case for Magus, or focus on spell-weaving and autoattacks, which Runeglaive currently does.
CrazedPorcupine1 votesThe best thing to do would actually to add a jungle enchant that functioned like a mini deathcap.
Something like this Enchantment: Scroll of Knowledge Recipe: Ancient Tome + Forbidden Idol + 365 gold = 1400 (same as all other enchantments) 10% CDR 40 AP Unique Passive - Expanded Knowledge: Increase ability power by 15% Unique passive - Soul Siphon: Regain 4% of damage dealt with abilities to neutral monsters as mana
