Morde went bot lane as an alternative carry, why not veigar?

DeusVult·Sep 18, 2015·5 votes·793 views

Veigar is all about farming up for a massive late game, and supports helping him set up his combos would help him out enormously now that he can't really stun anyone competent on his own.

IMO, bot lane would fit Veigar perfectly, as it rids him of his poor early solo laning and lets him get to mid/late without being crushed. Also, his damage mid game and especially late is big enough validate him taking the ADC spot, especially given how many AD mids, junglers and tops are taken now

19 Comments

KougaSep 18, 20152 votes

Find a group who is willing to break the meta and give it a shot. There might be something there. Depending on the enemy team he might get zoned out and if he can't farm he suffers but supports can help that. I'd pick a primarily defensive support, someone whose sole job would be to peel for Veigar. Alistair, for example; if they jump on him, he can just headbutt them away. then he can knock them up to give Veigar time to either stun or drop a rock on them. Braum could also work; just stand in front of him when he needs to farm.

Secret Butt FunSep 18, 20151 votes

Because if I were to play him, I don't want a stupid support to item 3302 and take stacks. Also, his ult scales on the enemy's AP; what ADC would build AP? His ult would only be good against an AP building support like Sona and Morgana during lane phase.

DeusVultSep 18, 20151 votes

His ult is only good late game for the enemy AP ratio, and by that time he blows them up with his own ratios without needing it

PopePancakeSep 18, 20151 votes

With how bot lane normally works, sending Veigar down there really wouldnt do much.

YossarianSenseiSep 18, 20151 votes

A long long time ago ADC mid and caster bot was a real thing, but somewhere along the line people realized ADC doesn't need levels nearly as much as casters

Morde circumvents the EXP problem, but putting a normal mage bot defeats that purpose

CindikleSep 18, 20151 votes

I think it was more to do with mid champions making more use of blue buff and their mobility.

That's my understanding anyway.

YossarianSenseiSep 18, 20151 votes

That's definitely part of the reason

This was like S1 or something though, the concept of 'mobile' champions barely existed. I think most people liked Ashe mid because she had relatively OP ganks and was a pretty safe laner.

DeusVultSep 18, 20151 votes

Veigar's passive and its interaction with blue pots/flask make him less reliant on blue than most other mages, and he has no mobility whatsoever to help him gank, he would prefer to just farm and then be close to drag to teamfight

CindikleSep 18, 20151 votes

Thing is that he still scales more with levels/farm than actual gold. Putting him bot lane wont really get him to do better. And even worse if it means having less tower killing power. If your bot lane carry is your only ranged on the team. You'll want that AD champion.

I'd love to see more mechanics like Azir's W. But currently no APC really covers what is needed. ADC's are embedded into the meta like diamonds are embedded into romance/luxury even though they're honestly worth almost nothing.

Morde is doing well down there because he's using poor mechanics and breaking the lane. Not changing it. There aren't enough alternative choices to replace your ADC when they enemy picks Morde.

LuggSep 18, 20151 votes

Veiger did go bot lane as a support and got mega nerfed.

SasogwaSep 18, 20151 votes

Actually poor early laning is a huge deficit in botlane too, I kinda find it even harder than midlane, if their botlane is aggressive. Mordekaiser has sustain, shield and a mechanic to get full exp. Veigar has none of this

DeusVultSep 18, 20152 votes

But Veigar has range, a stun and decent damage that gets godlike as the game goes on

Morde needs the safety that a shield and sustain give him since he is melee and his spells are short ranged, plus his spells cost health

Veigar is safer in a different sense, since he has pretty good range on his Q, and decent disengage with E

CrukSep 18, 20151 votes

Veigar can find a ton of success mid, check my match history with him, he is completely broken in some matchups, and suffers in others. He fills a niche role, play him against mages, not against AD mids and youll be extremely useful all game.

ChargeItDownMidSep 18, 20151 votes

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DeusVultSep 18, 20152 votes

Depending on how he does, his power is about the same as the average marksmen, but whereas a marksman is all DPS and not a lot of burst, Veigar can delete someone with his combo, thus making the fight a 5v4. After that, his Q is on a short CD, especially with CDR, and it does good damage.

Icestar1186Sep 18, 20151 votes

I think Veigar or Cassiopeia would work great bot, especially with an alternative ADC pick somewhere else (Varus mid, Kayle jungle, Vayne top, Quinnn top or mid, Kindred jungle, etc).

KougaSep 18, 20151 votes

Deus, don't let the haters get you down. Go try it - how do you think people stumble upon meta-breaking, game-destroying strategies? Go out and try shit.

Everyone thought that innervating locket was a useless support item until a certain Udyr showed them just how wrong they were.

Put an ADC Marksman in mid, take a defensive support bot and give it a shot. Even if your support takes Runic Shield, they aren't taking that many CS and its even harder to get every minion in a wave with your Q anyway.

RhytoOct 14, 20151 votes

I have been playing Veigar bot lane with either a Bard , Morgana , or Leona and so far I have been winning pretty much all my lanes and the only problems I see with him in the bot lane at this time really is...

Getting Ganked/Camped (Really hinders stacking under turret)
Long Range ADCs like Caitlyn that can obtain farm fairly easier in which renders my trades kind of pointless (Other than W but well, if landed)

Other than that Veigar is quite strong if used well. I may be experienced with him but that doesn't mean a new person should try it out immediately in ranked but it is something to throw off the enemy laners.

Counters to him bot lane early game (In experience)

/ (These are the spell shield duo in which when done right can nulify most of my damage output and I would have to rely on my support to fake out their shields. Coordination is highly needed or you just won't be able to grab any kind of blood.)
/ (This is a farm safe lane for Caitlyn with Karma having her early burst damage, if you can survive until 6 then you can easily nuke them both down respectfully, but that also means you need to make sure your hp is at least above 50% for you and your support as Caitlyn will attempt an execution. We nearly died three times due to that but we saved each other thankfully, didn't die that match.)
/ (Aside from the explosive charges and Blitzcrank pulls, this is really a patient laning phase in which you would best attempt to grab 100 stacks "at least" before moving on to bursting them down, unless their positioning is horrible and you can just take the easy kills.)

I know there are more pairs to consider but I haven't faced them yet as Veigar to give out a proper review.

summoner 4 summoner 12 Are what I recommend bringing with him especially because if you know you're going to be bullied under turret and after pushing wave after wave, consider purchases items before the next wave in order to have an early game power spike at lvl 3 or even at 6 just to eliminate their chances at success.

summoner 4 summoner 14 Are for the more aggressive players that want those early kills to boost up their kit in which can render the enemy vulnerable and while you do have a finisher you don't necessarily need it, unless your calculations in your DPS output is lacking.

summoner 4 summoner 3 If you're considering to play Veigar Support as the focus on one target will greatly enhance your chances at one-shotting the person with their stats debuffed for the duration and it "should" be an easy stun placement. Otherwise, take this with your support and go for early kills post 6. Etc.

Now another thing to consider is that your TowerPushing will not be as high unless you grab yourselves a good 2 dragons for those bonuses against them otherwise rely on your jungler ganks to provide the 3-man push in bot lane otherwise support your mid or even top lane in removing the enemy. (Walking in on the enemy mid laner really helps out in giving your mid laner an edge.)

In conclusion I would recommend doing this in ranked "ONLY" if you know what you are doing. You need to consider their team comp, how much damage you'll likely output in the lane, etc. Besides, this will force them to heavily build AP resistance in which gives your AD Players an Edge in teamfights while Veigar can lockdown the enemy team respectfully. If you can build up plans and tactics like this or even more (I know I'm SIlver III but this is what I can feed for now) then please do so and win that lane.

Titanium70Oct 14, 20151 votes

Veigar really does have a weak laning and a late oriented power spike, but he cant EVER carry a Lategame Team. As soon as the opponent build aginst him his, strength is irrelevant unlike a ADC with 2k DPS!!

The only one with Bot lane capeability is Azir, if you have a full AD Team. :) But Veigar? NO!