how about this for a garen buff instead of the armor shred?

Critmaster Garen·Nov 12, 2016·3 votes·1,562 views

change his passive to % missing health regeneration, but leave the out of combat sustain, so he can still fall back for a moment when he gets poked out of lane.
for every spin tick he gets on an enemy champion, his passive activates for the same amount of seconds when the spin ends. up to 5 seconds tops, but each enemy he hits adds to the timer.

he has now actually a way to stay in fights.

you have an added layer of decision making. for example when you hit multiple opponents and stack the timer fast, cancelling the spin early would give you immediate health return but you stop dealing damage.

you only get the regeneration when you hit people with your spin and dont get kited. (leaves his intended weakness intact)

22 Comments

Jax CramerNov 12, 20161 votes

I think the armor shred is better.

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jax Cramer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=khyPh5A2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-12T00:57:46.604+0000)

I think the armor shred is better.

its pretty good. but the thing is, you can buy armor shred. the only thing he doesnt have access to, and i think what hes really missing to be able to take extended fights is some sort of in combat sustain.

it would be really nice if the enemy couldnt just stat check you and drain tank you with lifesteal though a face full of spin, and then kill you when the ability is on cooldown and you have nothing to fight with.

if you get into range of your intended target and get a full combo off, and he doesnt die to it, you would at least survive until your spin is ready again. or have a better chance at it.

Jax CramerNov 12, 20161 votes

Armor shred is still great though and valuable vs both squishies and tanks.....it doesnt solve the issue you just described but it will be a good buff.

His spin activating his passive wouldn't be as good imo...easily countered by grievous wounds and then it does nothing.

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jax Cramer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=khyPh5A2,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-12T01:07:52.675+0000)

Armor shred is still great though and valuable vs both squishies and tanks.....it doesnt solve the issue you just described but it will be a good buff.

His spin activating his passive wouldn't be as good imo...easily countered by grievous wounds and then it does nothing.

i think against tanks the added sustain would be definitely enough, since fighting tanks is a battle of attrition. extra armor shred, or sustain doesnt make that much of a difference in that case and the sustain might be a more reliable buff than the shred.

the only time a sustain mechanic would be weaker would probably be against enemies with item 3123 and item 3033 . but that thing needs to get looked at anyways. grievous wounds is a passive that they havent really figured out yet in my opinion and still isnt balanced. its still either too strong or too situational to be useful.

for one, it should probably be a windowed active instead of a passive. or it needs the same resitrictions as morellonomcon and only work at a certain health threshold.

against item 3165 it would b noticably less off a problem, since straight health stacking usually helps survive mages.

Big LincolnNov 12, 20161 votes

why not both

have it be like, each time garen deals damage to something, he gets a stack that reduces armor. if he fully stacks then he gets a brief burst of health regen scaling off his missing hp

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=khyPh5A2,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-12T01:15:04.729+0000)

why not both

have it be like, each time garen deals damage to something, he gets a stack that reduces armor. if he fully stacks then he gets a brief burst of health regen scaling off his missing hp

not so sure about that. at some point a buff like that becomes so strong, that they would have to redistribute power from somewhere else to make him not get crazy. means another part of his kit would suffer. theyd probably nerf his mobility again for something like that.

Big LincolnNov 12, 20161 votes

remove villain mechanic as compensation :^)

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=khyPh5A2,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-11-12T01:49:17.511+0000)

remove villain mechanic as compensation :^)

then he wouldnt have his main nieche anymore.

being entirely focused on dealing aoe damage and healing is what darius and illaoi already do.

hunting down specific snowbally carries and assassins is garens job.

i agree, that the entire mechanic could probably use a rework, but that would be outside the scope of the changes they have in mind for him, and require a small scale rework like he got in season 2.

Big LincolnNov 12, 20161 votes

what if instead of adding more damage the villain mechanic let Garen be better at getting to the villain. ult can still be true damage but I feel like it shouldn't be magic to begin with, though that might be asking too much for how strong an execute it is

like, maybe extra MS bonus on his Q when moving towards villain, CC from the villain is X% less effective on garen, stuff like that

PermabannedGarenNov 12, 20161 votes

He needs the armour shred because Garen should actually, you know, do some damage inside his limited threat radius.

Garen does not have a problem surviving fights. I'm sorry, but statistically it's just a fact. Garen is more survivable than both Darius and Illaoi, two of the more successful top lane Juggernauts. He's already pretty good in that regard.

I think a change like yours would be fine to give him better dueling and combat sustain, but he needs to do damage more than anything. Buy a Death's Dance if you need sustain so badly.

Hopefully Riot eventually decides to take away the Villain mechanic to strengthen his kit in more reliable ways. Your buff would be a decent one to help do that.

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He needs the armour shred because Garen should actually, you know, do some damage inside his limited threat radius.

Garen does not have a problem surviving fights. I'm sorry, but statistically it's just a fact. Garen is more survivable than both Darius and Illaoi, two of the more successful top lane Juggernauts. He's already pretty good in that regard.

I think a change like yours would be fine to give him better dueling and combat sustain, but he needs to do damage more than anything. Buy a Death's Dance if you need sustain so badly.

Hopefully Riot eventually decides to take away the Villain mechanic to strengthen his kit in more reliable ways. Your buff would be a decent one to help do that.

mabye there really is room for both by changing the entire isolation damage mechanic in some shape and add the in combat sustain.

the problem with the isolation damage is that it really is invisible power. i dont think many people who are playing against garen even realize that he does deal increased damage to isolated targets.

it seems definitely like a mechanic that could be changed or removed somehow to give him overall just simply more accessable increased base damage on his spin. i dont exactly know how that would look like yet. if it would be armor shred on the spin or simply buffed base damage/ad scaling.

death dance is kindof an option, but not really. the spellvamp on the thing is 15% which is heavily reduced by the fact that his spin deals aoe damage. its a pretty crappy sustain option since it also works on minions.

zrWQMdGHtYNov 12, 20161 votes

I'm wondering why does anyone want to buff Garen... I literally died 9 times in a row last night to a 0/10 Garen, with him just doing flash + R and killing me off 80% Hp... I mean... He is full tank sure... but 1700 true damage on ult isn't enough? Especially with 0 counter play to it if he has flash?

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitty Katarina,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=khyPh5A2,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-12T01:39:38.508+0000)

I'm wondering why does anyone want to buff Garen... I literally died 9 times in a row last night to a 0/10 Garen, with him just doing flash + R and killing me off 80% Hp... I mean... He is full tank sure... but 1700 true damage on ult isn't enough? Especially with 0 counter play to it if he has flash?

if he flash q + r killed you, you didnt have the health for his ult to actually deal 1700 damage.

you got fooled by death recap.

and hes being buffed, because hes in a really bad state right now.

zrWQMdGHtYNov 12, 20161 votes

Bad? Running around like a God and taking 0 damage and dealing tons of damage with 0 damage items is bad? And yeah you're right I had 1600 out of 2033 HP and he just bursted me 1711 true damage and I don't speak of death recap I speak of the white numbers appearing over my head after the huge magical blade lands on me even if I shunpoed 1000 miles away... His fine as it is and IDK why would anyone even consider adding even less counterplay against him...

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitty Katarina,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=khyPh5A2,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-11-12T01:47:42.558+0000)

Bad? Running around like a God and taking 0 damage and dealing tons of damage with 0 damage items is bad?

he does shit for damage with 0 damage items. if you want to deal some damage on him (especially kill someone from full health with q+r), you need to build at the very least item 3071 item 3053 and possibly item 3142 or item 3031 and pray to rngesus for a crit on the q.

And yeah you're right I had 1600 out of 2033 HP and he just bursted me 1711 true damage and I don't speak of death recap I speak of >the white numbers appearing over my head after the huge magical blade lands on me even if I shunpoed 1000 miles away... His fine as it is and IDK >why would anyone even consider adding even less counterplay against him...

im not sure about this, but i think the white numbers also dont account for overkill. you had to be very low on health to begin with (and by that i mean, almost dead) to get hit by such a big ult.

zrWQMdGHtYNov 12, 20161 votes

Don't ask me, I see 1700, I cry. He actually gave me 2033 when I was on 50% HP, so ok.

Meanwhile my friend who didn't play LoL from 5 years came back last night, he played Garen... Every time I heard him saying NOPE, was when he Q + Red the 3k HP malphate and instant deleting him... My friend then asked me "When is Garen getting nerfed? I want to abuse him"

And he actually went full tank items, cuz I told him to do it cuz I tough he will do bad and he can at least be a meatshield...

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitty Katarina,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=khyPh5A2,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-12T02:24:04.914+0000)

Don't ask me, I see 1700, I cry. He actually gave me 2033 when I was on 50% HP, so ok.

Meanwhile my friend who didn't play LoL from 5 years came back last night, he played Garen... Every time I heard him saying NOPE, was when he Q + Red the 3k HP malphate and instant deleting him... My friend then asked me "When is Garen getting nerfed? I want to abuse him"

And he actually went full tank items, cuz I told him to do it cuz I tough he will do bad and he can at least be a meatshield...

just a calculation for your case.

1700 - 550 base damage = 1150

this had to be 40% of your missing health.

means you had to have 2875 missing health when he ulted you at 1700 health. this puts your total health at 1700 + 2875 = 4575 health. youve had to have this much maximum health for him to actually ult you for that much.

now 2 questions:

1: how did his q deal 2875 damage? because i want to be able to do that aswell.

2: did you have this much maximum health?

if your answer is no, then that garen did not deal 1700 true damage to you, but pretty much all of that damage except for what was probably an auto attack worth of health is useless overkill.

and i dont think "my friend played again after 5 years" helps your argument. played where? sub level 30 against newcomers? how has the opinion of a person whos basically back to beginners level, and is based on anecdotal evidence, any weight when it comes to competitive viability of a champion?

zrWQMdGHtYNov 12, 20161 votes

I had 2132 maximum health, you can do all the math in the world you want. He never Qed, he just Red. And trying to follow math to get actual numbers in this game isn't going to work, because the math of the game is pretty horrible. Especially when I hit 122 with my Q even if it has only 83 power (with my ap bonus), as Kat :p

I doubt that a level 30 account just returned is beginner level while laning against a plat 4 malphite, but I'm sure you're as always correct.

9 deaths, 9 flash + ult 0 dmg items 1700 to 2000 true damage. on 70-80% HP on 2132 maximum HP. Idc what math you do, I lost my game to this flash and R tactic, because I have 0 counter play to it, simply because when I flash or shunpo out the stupid thing follows me and kills me 1000 miles away.

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitty Katarina,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=khyPh5A2,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-12T02:51:22.689+0000)

I had 2132 maximum health, you can do all the math in the world you want. He never Qed, he just Red. And trying to follow math to get actual numbers in this game isn't going to work, because the math of the game is pretty horrible. Especially when I hit 122 with my Q even if it has only 83 power (with my ap bonus), as Kat :p

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/548/129/538.jpg

zrWQMdGHtYNov 12, 20161 votes

He's like "what does Kata have to do with it"

Simply... I do a Q which has 83 power at level 1, and I do 122 damage to 32 MR Annie. Nothing more nothing less. HashTag VoteMathMakeLoLGreatAgain

agbudarNov 12, 20161 votes

no please his late game sustain would make him unkillable if you would implement this.

throw in item 3812 for good measure and you have a sustain tank that sustains more then mundo. while dealing WAY more damage

Critmaster GarenNov 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

no please his late game sustain would make him unkillable if you would implement this.

throw in for good measure and you have a sustain tank that sustains more then mundo. while dealing WAY more damage

ok, first its a matter of his passive scaling. if it scaled off % missing health instead of % max health it would be less effective than now above 50% hp.

second, i just explained why deaths dance is garbage for sustain on him. a full 2000 damage spin (which is pretty damn generous and requires you to build at least an i.e. with the death dance) on an enemy heals him for 100 health off that item.

it doesnt trigger on his ult, since the ult doesnt deal physical damage.

the next problem is, he doesnt get the sustain when he needs it. which is when his spin is on cooldown and hes stuck in the middle of the enemy team without an ability to fight. this is why i think regen after the spin would be placed better.

yes, he would be harder to kill when he gets in your face. he would die just as quickly as now, when he gets kited.

id be ok, to sacrifice a chunk of his out of combat regen at lvl 16 for it. because, again. you can buy that if you need it. item 3083