Oh I see, rework on AP means makes weaker while rework on ad means makes stronger

KirbyCake·May 7, 2016·70 votes·5,349 views

Good thing I stopped playing this game a while ago, since the only reason you would want an ap on your team is because ap champions can do damage if the opponent buys 0 mr items, and they might have to waste 1 item slot on overloaded defensive MR item to negate most of your damage if you somehow get fed. ( or you have an overloaded ap champion thats inherently broken like ryze or azir which are really just adc's doing magic damage )

And also you guys don't mind overbuffing ad champions to the point where they're broken and leave them op for a few patches while for ap champions they're conservative buffs.

168 Comments

Critmaster GarenMay 7, 201635 votes

youre saying

Veigar Malzahar Zyra Vladimir

got weaker? lmao.

and rework darius was trash tier when he was released. it took a couple of buffs before he was really strong.

you people are only focusing on the parts of the champions they nerfd without paying attention to the buffs. all juggernauts were nerfed in some shape or form to compensate for the new abilities in their kits.

garen lost a second of his silence on his q for example, and most of his base stats got nerfed for him to get the villain mechanic.

Vistha KaiMay 7, 201615 votes

Are you saying Vladimir got stronger? Buahahaha.

I played aganist him already. He's so weak you are outplaying yourself for picking him (kinda like Sion, except worse) and that's without considering he lost his core item.

As for others, I haven't seen Veigar or Malzahar picked in my games yet, but I watched how others played as and aganist Zyra and Brand, and I'm not amazed by their power level either.

For example Zyra turned into an RNG bot, "Is there a seed from my passive near the enemy? If 'yes' then win, if 'no' then lose."

tooomineMay 7, 20163 votes

you clearly don't understand the strengths of sion.

nevertheless, I don't understand the strengths/weaknesses of vlad, and would love to hear your analysis.

CowboyNinjaMay 7, 20166 votes

Well let's look at what Vlad was. An on click short range mage whos damage and survivability in the early game was awful but scaled insanely bc he had a ap/health passive that scaled like crazy and a multiplicatively stacking heal buff on his E that meant he got +50-75% increased healing depending on items. This meant late game Vlad could use all his abilities freely even the ones that cost HP and still get healing from them. He didn't need a 50% heal on his ult, bc he got that much healing for free on every single ability through spellvamp and passive on E.

New Vlad only really gets any noticeable heal on his 3rd Q and then only if he lands in on a champ, which is now insanely easy to deny him. It's not "healthy counter play". It's garunteed counter play.

His pool is still just as useful as it ever was for dodging opponents, only now without SV he gets less healing from it. Making the 20% self nuke incredibly painful.

Now E, the biggest offender. He lost the passive healing boost that even made his whole kit work to begin with. Then they made it cost 3x the hp it used to cost with only really doing more damage in the early game and about the same damage in the late game. And don't forget he can't heal off it anymore, it now slows him down, and can be dodged by hiding behind others. With this one ability they were able to destroy everything about him. The Q change was annoying and bad but livable, but this change was the hammer that broke his spine. This also happened to be his main farm ability and what allowed him to speed push. He can still use if for that, but now he'll kill himself more than his Q can reover him. It makes him a joke. "Hey there's that champ that will literally kill himself if he tries to farm"

His ult, was never really anything special. The damage boost was useful in a teamfight, especially for allowing your ADC to burn through tanks. If anything this would have been the biggest candidate for change. But all they really did is nerf it's damage, nerf its damage buff, and nerf its duration, and then give it the healing that Vlad used to get from it by default through spell vamp.

Vistha KaiMay 7, 20165 votes

I don't?

The only semi-reliable options Sion has is his Roar and point blank ult. Shield can be popped before it deals damage and Q cannot be charged beyond instant slow aganist any decent opponent. His health stacking is a trap, because of his low base stats.

As for Vlad, first of all, while potentially dealing a lot of damage with his Q and E, you can see from a mile away Vlad's intentions. When it comes to fighting aganist champions, E is unusable anywhere near an enemy minion wave. It's basically why the Protobelt is the core in Vlad's new recommended items. Ironic. Stacked Q has a very short window of time to be used, to the point it's hard to zone even a melee champion from getting a single CS. Ranged champs are pretty much immune to it.

CowboyNinjaMay 7, 20163 votes

Hey man Sion can at least survive Lane just fine and then be a meat shield & Provide CC in fights.

Vlad can't even do that.

WoonStruckMay 7, 201622 votes

Tell me what about Vlad got buffed.

Not his Q. It does less damage than before even with CR procs. It heals less than before. It was made even clunkier. It ate a 25% CD nerf.

His E wasn't buffed. It does more upfront damage, drastically less DPS, and over 3x the HP cost. Not to mention its not reliable at all now, and often doesn't give a good payout even when you land it.

His R definitely wasn't buffed. It was gutted to insert a heal that accomplishes nothing for Vlad.

Almost every aspect of him is significantly weaker without any fun new mechanics. Everything was nerfed, with minor compensation as his new 'tools'. You can't honestly tell me the person who thought a .5 second 16 MS buff still deserves to have his job.

NarasimhaMay 7, 201611 votes

Other than Vlad, he's not wrong though.

Miror BMay 7, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Other than Vlad, he's not wrong though.

He also took 5 of the 16 characters that received changes though. In actuality, 3 characters got noticably better, 4 remained roughly the same, and the other 9 received noticable nerfs that made them "kinda" unplayable.

NarasimhaMay 7, 20164 votes

Other than maybe Anivia, I wouldn't say unplayable. People need time to adjust, that's all.

Miror BMay 7, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Other than maybe Anivia, I wouldn't say unplayable. People need time to adjust, that's all.

Should rephrase: they were made "kinda" unplayable compared to all the other attractive options mid. Why play a weaker velkoz/vlad/anivia/zyra/cass/viktor when you can play an untouched assassin/azir/lissandra? This patch isn't one of those "we redistributed stats, so people need to get adjusted to what the new characters bring", it's "we actively nerfed 9 characters on a PRO-mid lane mage update, if we don't buff these characters soon then you're really going to have no logical non-trolling reason to play them".

MasqureManMay 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Tell me what about Vlad got buffed.

Not his Q. It does less damage than before even with CR procs. It heals less than before. It was made even clunkier. It ate a 25% CD nerf.

His E wasn't buffed. It does more upfront damage, drastically less DPS, and over 3x the HP cost. Not to mention its not reliable at all now, and often doesn't give a good payout even when you land it.

His R definitely wasn't buffed. It was gutted to insert a heal that accomplishes nothing for Vlad.

Almost every aspect of him is significantly weaker without any fun new mechanics. Everything was nerfed, with minor compensation as his new 'tools'. You can't honestly tell me the person who thought a .5 second 16 MS buff still deserves to have his job.

You Vlad conspirators man...E feels great when you land it. It does a lot of damage, the slow helps you stick and puts attention on you and away from your teammates, and Q feels better regardless of what the numbers say. People I chunk Q with suddenly question all the bad things they've heard about new Vlad. Even if the numbers say old Q was better, people are scared of Vlad in lane now. You feel powerful now. I don't know what the rest of you guys are doing, but he hurts and stop lying and saying he doesn't.

WoonStruckMay 7, 20162 votes

If you're playing against someone who isn't garbage at the game, you will not land E. When you do land it, its never worth it if they have a single MR item. You lose a little more than they do. You basically add ~300 damage to their burst.

Q does not feel better because you can never get it off against anyone that isn't a vegetable pretending to play LoL.

Considering how much CC and mobility he has, his current trade-offs are not worth it unless people are glass and WANT to take damage from you, for whatever reason.

It just made Vlad's issues prior to the rework worse. He's now better against bad players, worse against good ones, but his middle-line was cut down to about 70% of what it used to be. Oh, and he doesn't have any power-spikes now. There is no reason to pick him outside of "I want to play this champion".

MasqureManMay 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If you're playing against someone who isn't garbage at the game, you will not land E. When you do land it, its never worth it if they have a single MR item. You lose a little more than they do. You basically add ~300 damage to their burst.

Q does not feel better because you can never get it off against anyone that isn't a vegetable pretending to play LoL.

Considering how much CC and mobility he has, his current trade-offs are not worth it unless people are glass and WANT to take damage from you, for whatever reason.

It just made Vlad's issues prior to the rework worse. He's now better against bad players, worse against good ones, but his middle-line was cut down to about 70% of what it used to be. Oh, and he doesn't have any power-spikes now. There is no reason to pick him outside of "I want to play this champion".

Those are arguments you can use for any champion's abilities. No actually, because when you use E everyone around you take a total of more damage than you're dealing to yourself, and you're going to heal it back anyway.

WoonStruckMay 7, 20161 votes

Those are arguments you can use for any champion's abilities.

Other champion abilities don't do 10% of your max health in true damage.

No actually, because when you use E everyone around you take a total of more damage than you're dealing to yourself

Please tell me when you're likely to have more than just tanks in range of your E. How do you expect Vlad to get his Q on the 2nd proc safely, get into the middle of a fight so that he can E, and get that Q off without getting focused, considering you have to use your W to get into a fight usually. If you wait until CC is blown, the fight is usually already determined.

you're going to heal it back anyway.

Please tell me when you expect this to happen in a teamfight. You throw out Es and hope your team can push the rest of the damage. You in no way heal it back unless you were below 50% hp to start. And if that's the case, if you aren't dead, you're fighting a bunch of idiots.

Vlad does not have impact anymore. He's more damage, but that's all he offers. There's benefit to bringing him over someone else.

MasqureManMay 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Other champion abilities don't do 10% of your max health in true damage.

Please tell me when you're likely to have more than just tanks in range of your E. How do you expect Vlad to get his Q on the 2nd proc safely, get into the middle of a fight so that he can E, and get that Q off without getting focused, considering you have to use your W to get into a fight usually. If you wait until CC is blown, the fight is usually already determined.

Please tell me when you expect this to happen in a teamfight. You throw out Es and hope your team can push the rest of the damage. You in no way heal it back unless you were below 50% hp to start. And if that's the case, if you aren't dead, you're fighting a bunch of idiots.

Vlad does not have impact anymore. He's more damage, but that's all he offers. There's benefit to bringing him over someone else.

Play him and see. Your job is to do damage while attracting attention, an magic aoe offtank with sustain. I'm not really interested in explaining what I expect to happen because I play him and I see it happen. Play him and stop theory crafting why he sucks, I'm tired of reading about how weak he is on the forums while people say how strong he is in actual games. You all are going to mess around and get him buffed too much which will be followed by severe nerfs, and then he will actually be weak.

WoonStruckMay 7, 20162 votes

I have played him, and the only time he feels decent to play is when the opponent is significantly worse than you, and that's only decent, because steamrolling someone isn't fun either.

Its closer to damage-control for your E, not sustain.

I beg you...take him into ranked, get to gold, and tell me what his job is and how he's supposed to accomplish it while climbing after that. He's got all of the issues he had prior to the rework with several new ones added in, in addition to taking a net nerf via opportunity cost and inability to capitalize on ones that are in his favor reliably in teamfights.

Yes, he feels really strong when your opponents suck. Old Vlad felt stronger in all cases unless you, the Vlad player, were bad. Keep in mind he had a 44% winrate. If your opponent is decent, effectively gold+, you feel significantly worse, and it only goes downhill as the game goes on unless everyone on the enemy team is glass cannon.

MasqureManMay 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I have played him, and the only time he feels decent to play is when the opponent is significantly worse than you, and that's only decent, because steamrolling someone isn't fun either.

Its closer to damage-control for your E, not sustain.

I beg you, take him into ranked, get to gold, and tell me what his job is and how he's supposed to acomplish it.

If I take him to ranked, 10% of it will be me playing Vlad and 90% of it will be me competing with the rest of my team who are tilting because people in ranked act like spoiled children, so no thanks.

What situations does he not feel good to play in? Are you losing laning phase? Are you being harassed and can't handle it? Or is it just people walk away when your crimson rush comes up and you feel bad? You don't make compelling reasons about him being bad other than your lies about his E.

Kuroi86May 7, 20164 votes

When you do land it, its never worth it if they have a single MR item. You lose a little more than they do.

Wow, it's almost like you completely forgot the base damage and AP scaling on his E... Not to mention, on a champ that stacks health, you're going to hit people for a LOT more than 300.

If you're playing against someone who isn't garbage at the game, you will not land E.

Congratulations, you're effective at zoning opponents! I mean that's completely useless these days isn't it.

Q does not feel better because you can never get it off against anyone that isn't a vegetable pretending to play LoL.

Because you could never hit it before? Again, powerful zoning tool, also good for grabbing the siege minion if you're good on your timing.

Oh, and he doesn't have any power-spikes now.

Spike, no. More of a ramping up. After maxing Q and starting to put points into E and leveling E some, you'll start to see minion waves melt and any opponent dumb enough to let E him them get chunked. Not to mention any squishy opponent that is dumb enough to get hit by both ult and E is going to see near half of their health disappear.

His healing needs some buffs which has been comfirmed in the hotfix. Hopefully it'll be enough, we'll see.

BlåbæretMay 7, 20169 votes

The only champs in your list who got stronger was Veigar, Malz and Brand. The rest, not really.

Critmaster GarenMay 7, 20167 votes

{quoted}

The only champs in your list who got stronger was Veigar, Malz and Brand. The rest, not really.

zyra and vlad got buffed aswell. zyra basically lost her useless passive (that people have been complaining about for a long time mind you) for a lot more plants, and effectively increased damage. especially when she ults and enrages a bunch of plants at the same time instead of just two.

people really havent adapted to vlads new e yet. they keep spamming that shit and are suprised that theyre killing themselves. like the burst of that ability is ridiculous.

and its obviously meant to be used sparingly, with his new burst heal on his q to regain the health that you spend with your e.

youre not supposed to use the new e every time its off cooldown. his playstile changed drastically, and people need time to adapt to it. but if youre actually using his new abilites to full effect, hes stronger than before.

Zero Skill TankMay 7, 20162 votes

like the burst of that ability is ridiculous.

No, considering it's ridiculously high cost it is not. In 1v1 situation it's barely even worth casting. Yes you can heal up the cost, but you could as well heal up whatever damage the enemy is dealing to you.

It starts being strong if you cast it on 3-4 people, I suppose it could be somewhat scary in teamfights, but Vlad gets so abused now early that it still irrelevant. Unless you are playing against someone who you can kite eternally without ever getting jumped on (and let's not even talk about ranged, I play Teemo and I just feel sorry for Vlads) getting your Vlad to the point when you become relevant is borderline impossible now.

SnugglePuggle94May 7, 20162 votes

No, they nerfed her plant and Q damage, then gave that plant damage buff on her ult to compensate. For me, I still think she doesn't do as much.

NarasimhaMay 7, 20165 votes

Speaking as a Zyra main since S2, it was a buff. Her new passive is trickier to get used to, but its far far stronger than the old one. Nerfing her damage to allow her to have 100% more plants out is an entirely fair thing.

Vistha KaiMay 7, 20162 votes

Actually her ult is a trap. 50% attack damage for 50% attack speed.

It's basically the same exact thing.

DengedenMay 7, 20161 votes

Erm, the damage scales with AP, which gets increased too. Avoiding 1 AA is always harder than avoiding 2 fast AAs as well.

Vistha KaiMay 7, 20163 votes

Um... they already scaled with AP, so what's your point exactly?

CowboyNinjaMay 7, 20165 votes

The burst on Vlad E is the same amount of burst he used to have. Acting like this new E does so much damage is retarded. Yeah early game it does more but late game it does exactly the same damage it used to do while having massive downsides of no healing(from SpellVamp), no healing amp passive, being heavily telegraphed, being block-able, adding a self slow, and self nuking him.

Sightless66May 7, 20163 votes

Vlad got waaaay weaker. He is legitimately one of the weakest champions in the game right now, to the point where he is receiving emergency hotfix buffs. He does less damage if he doesn't use his E often enough, kills himself with it if he does spam it, and sustains for less under any condition, even if he does get to use his empowered Q (which is not a guarantee, particularly in lane). It is so easy to kill a Vlad that it's not even funny.

You can make him somewhat decent in the early game, but once the lategame hits, he falls off incredibly hard. He is just absolutely terrible, and to such a large degree that I do not accept the argument that it is just due to him being different.

FatalitýMay 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kbYE9sjw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-07T08:58:03.952+0000)

youre saying

got weaker? lmao.

and rework darius was trash tier when he was released. it took a couple of buffs before he was really strong.

you people are only focusing on the parts of the champions they nerfd without paying attention to the buffs. all juggernauts were nerfed in some shape or form to compensate for the new abilities in their kits.

garen lost a second of his silence on his q for example, and most of his base stats got nerfed for him to get the villain mechanic.

Actually Vlad did get weaker.

Meep ManMay 7, 201610 votes

People complain things are often too strong on release, so now things are too weak and everyone goes ape shit crazy.

Anyways, there are a few Mages who stand out above the rest, such as Ziggs, Veigar, Malzahar, and Brand.

xxxMadLionxxxMay 7, 20169 votes

I think riot hidden agenda is for Midlaners to go bot as supports.

LSmaster16May 7, 20167 votes

Just going to point out that we kept complaining about class updates being op and now that a class update isn't op we complain about anti mage bias. If you want to complain at least wait for them to do a round of number changes.

deadlychuckMay 7, 20168 votes

The problem is when a champion like Malzahar was broken mechanically not numerically

The changes were very much anti-mage biased, though i think it's wrong to say they were intentionally so. I think riot just legitimately doesn't have any clue what they want mages to be. Assassins are basically just becoming burst mages, non-burst mages are massively out damage by marksmen, and tanks have better CC. Mages seem to fall into the center of the rock-paper-scissors analogy. They are a jack of all trades, but a master of none.

tooomineMay 7, 20161 votes

They're more like APC's, now, if you think about it. the build paths are all built around making mages choose between super stacking ap, penetration, or defense. Able to bust tanks in the right situation, likely to die in the others.

all in all, the changes weren't anti-mage (IMO) as much as they made AP overall more comparable to AD in terms of statistical damage output.

deadlychuckMay 8, 20163 votes

Not at all. Mages use to be very good at killing tanks, because some were given very well scaling % HP damage.

The only reason you ever see mages in the current game is to split the damage between physical and magic. When it come down to it, mages just do everything worse than the other options.

SnugglePuggle94May 7, 20165 votes

{quoted}

If you want to complain at least wait for them to do a round of number changes.

Ahem, they have. They hit our itemization hard during the marksmen update, then did it again at this mage update, along with making some awful mage updates.

Mister SupportMay 7, 20161 votes

Can you explain how items were hit hard? I see 3 new CDR options, cheaper defensive item options, Morello getting a large buff overall, 2 new utility based items that offer decet AP and Health, Better sustain on spell spammers and skrimishers, a new item for support poke mages that is really powerful, and powerful mana sustain with lost chapter early game for 900 gold.

SnugglePuggle94May 7, 20165 votes

Again, I repeat. During the marksmen update, our items were like this: AP down, armor down, health down, cost up.

Now in this mage update: AP down AGAIN, actives CD increased, 10% CDR as "compensation," mana regen scrapped for this new mana component which isn't all that great, etc.

In my opinion, this mage update has been failure, and only further proves my point that Riot tailors to the AD side.

Mister SupportMay 7, 20162 votes

You looked at just Zhonyas in that. Morello's got 20 more AP and the Lost Chapter component gives insane mana sustain early. Also, you fail to another compensation to Zhonyas was a drastically reduced cost which plenty of higher tier players see as a buff since the item is actually affordable now. You also ignore that there are 2 new items which give HP/AP, with great utility actives and one also gives CDR. Abyssal Scepter got 10 less AP, but 10 more MR, 10% CDR, and a stronger passive late game. There's also an easier to stack Tear, a cheaper Catalyst and RoA which have a better passive than before, and with a potential extra 800 mana from 2 items and the sustain from them, running out of mana shouldn't be a problem unlessly you aimlessly throw spells off cooldown without purpose. Again I don't see what your point is, these seem like overall buffs but you're focusing on a few negative aspects only. It's like you wanted only pure buffs to all of the items without a single reduction anywhere.

SnugglePuggle94May 7, 20163 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Good Lord.

I have mentioned the reduced cost of Zhonya's, probably in another comment on this thread, but still. It's a piece of crap item now. Most people don't like the damage switchoff for utility.

I basically summarized the rest of the changes because I didn't want to have to write out every damn change. Anyway, most mages still are hindered by mana issues, and these changes don't help that much. Sure we get more "mana" but can't regenerate it back unless we do damage to enemy champions or get HP items that don't offer much AP or damage but give us the awful "mana" component.

Morello's actually was going down to 80 AP but Riot decided to give it 100 from all of the outcries. Still, it makes almost every mage have to rush it to do damage, forcing them to go that route instead of defense, though rushing Zhonya's is more of a bad choice now. The regen component was taken out of it too.

Abyssal's passive was nerfed early game. Sure we have more options for CDR but how is that even effective if we run out of mana and don't have enough damage to be able to do well?

No, they weren't buffs at all in my opinion. I wanted better damage tradeoffs and defensive items. Sure I would take reductions but not like this.

Riot needs to fix their shit.

VarnocMay 7, 20162 votes

They've stated that they want to avoid cases of serious abuse, and have erred on the side of a little weaker as opposed to stronger, waiting to see how live takes them and uses them, before fine tuning it.

I'm seeing a lot of these complaint threads about mages being weak, and while some of them are a little undertuned, I really didn't want a repeat of the Juggernaut or Marksman update balance issues.

SnugglePuggle94May 7, 20168 votes

Dude. It's not just this update. Remember when the marksmen update went out? While every ADC got ridiculously buffed and their itemization get better, they nerfed our itemization a lot. Then this comes out! A lot of mages were turned into something the whole community didn't want, ALONG with our itemization getting hit AGAIN.

So I hope you see how Riot favors the AD over us. That's why we complain so much. It's like they are getting paid behind the lines to keep screwing us AP lovers over.

VarnocMay 7, 20165 votes

I'm not certain what you mean by:

they nerfed our itemization a lot.

It seems to be the crux of your argument here, and I simply don't feel that it's the case. Many of the old AP items got revisited and given more impactful passives; Tear, Catalyst, Hextech Revolver and all of their associated upgrades are unquestionably better than before, the former two specifically for mana based mages. Abyssal Scepter and Zhonyas are both better for the addition of Cooldown Reduction to their stat profiles, even if they lose a little ability power.

The magic resistance on Specter's Cowl, Spirit Visage, and Guardian Angel have all been reduced. It's an indirect buff to mages.

Will of the Ancients was removed, but let's be honest, who was using it? Vlad, maybe Mordekaiser or Swain, and occasionally a handful of others as a situational item. The stat still exists, you can get it via runes and masteries, but such a large source being made unavialable means that champions that practically required the stat can now be buffed.

Maw of Malimortius is nothing new, and I don't see why people continually cite it as a problem for mages (though not you specifically). Maybe a change in playstyle to deal more consistent damage (which with the addition of more convenient CDR, shouldn't be hard) and be a little tankier (more hp on the new items) instead of going glass cannon every game is warranted.

A lot of mages were turned into something the whole community didn't want.

Bullshit. They spent months taking in feedback about what people loved about each of the "big 6". Considering the changes made, they listened pretty damn well. This has been the most open and up front set of reworks since the concept of a "rework" was first implemented.

I would rather they low-ball the numbers on these guys to begin with, like they have, then bring them up to speed with everyone else. The petty complaints I'm seeing around the boards boil down to:

"The Juggernauts and Marksmen were OP when they were released, why didn't you make the Mages OP on release RIOT? I want to steamroll everyone with the new abilities and items like I was back in the day! How dare you take a conservative approach to these reworks? How dare you try to avoid the mistakes of the past?"

It's ridiculous to think that the whole of RIOT, every single employee, is in on a conspiracy to elevate AD characters while suppressing AP characters. It's equally unreasonable to think that some of the older characters, not crafted with the same experience and thought displayed today, would need some of their more abusive characteristics tuned down or removed.

The general childish behavior behind the complaints is what bothers me. It shows no consideration for the other side of the issue and displays a willful ignorance of the subject matter. I've only seen a handful of useful complaint posts, expressing their frustration in a reasonable manner and providing solutions. Further, the comments follow the same quality, why should someone take the time to write out a well thought out post when few people bother to comment or vote on the topic, and those that do respond with effectively "Lol you're wrong.", no reasoning, no counterargument, nothing.

I can't say I'm surprised though, the format of the boards, effectively copy/pasted from Reddit, breeds this sort of behavior.

SnugglePuggle94May 7, 20165 votes

If you had actually read my comment thoroughly, you would have noticed that I was talking about how they nerfed our itemization when the MARKSMEN UPDATE came out. Zhonya's armor was decreased, cost went up, AP went from 120 to 100. Almost every dang item we had was like this-AP nerfed, cost up, no compensation, besides ROA who got a 20 AP increase.

Then comes this mage update. Again, most of the items were nerfed- AP down again (Zhonya's had gone from 120 now down to 70. Active increased from 90 to 120 and given a 10% CDR slapped on as "compensation." Our mana regen taken out/scrapped for these new mana changes. Athene's changed into a support item. I can go on and on.

We asked for an AP armor item and didn't get one, instead we get all of these changes.

Have you seen all the posts about Victor? Vel Koz? Vladimir? Hundreds of people did NOT WANT them changed at all or changed the way that Riot did them, and still Riot chose to go through with it, just like they did with the Xin Zhao crit heal buffs.

I liked WOTA. I built it on Morgana. Great item, but Riot only saw how Vlad was abusing it and was like "oh hur dur, what should we do? Let's just scrap it instead of even trying to rework it! Great idea!" And now it's gone.

I'm not that big of a fan of the ROA, Tear, and other changes to the items. My mages still feel weak, don't have much options to damage or defense. Overall for me, in my opinion, this whole mage update was a failure.

Mister SupportMay 7, 20164 votes

So you mention how Zhonyas price was increased before but not decreased now? And with a cheaper build path? And people said they didn't want BIG changes on velkoz and after people said "oh, this is barely a touch, I basically got an AP ratio on my passive and get a true damage ult if I play better." For Vlad they reworked his E completely but in a way that is quite strong when you build bruiser on him.

Tldr - don't point out one half of an argument only to ignore the other half to support your opinion.

VarnocMay 7, 20163 votes

I wouldn't bother, this guy isn't looking for a discussion, he's looking for a soap box. I should have realized it before replying myself.

SnugglePuggle94May 7, 20164 votes

That's not nice.

VarnocMay 7, 20163 votes

It may not be nice, but you've shown little interest in discussing my original comment, and more about complaining about past events, to which I have no vested interest in reading.

I'm aware of past events, I've played this game for an awful long time and it would be negligent of me not to. You attacking me because you think that for some reason I am unaware of past changes to itemization is, quite frankly, insulting.

I stand by my original statement: Riot has stated that they've INTENTIONALLY left the subjects of these reworks on the weak side, and they are keeping a close eye on them, making changes even as I type this.

Weather or not they should have had changes done is moot, we can argue the merits of each until we are both blue in the face, it will not change things. At the end of the day, Riot has every right to change every single thing about their game at a whim, and we as players have every right to stop playing due to those changes.

What ultimately bothers me is that people seem to have an "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to the playerbase's relationship with Riot. Why on earth would Riot want to alienate their playerbase? We're their source of revenue, there's no reason why they would treat a section of their players maliciously. Further, they're fans of the games too, I can't believe that they would want to ruin their game just for the heck of it, which leaves only one conclusion: Riot is making these changes because they legitimately feel that they will improve the overall state of the game. You may not agree, I may not agree, but that's how it is.

SnugglePuggle94May 8, 20165 votes

For the record, I have not attacked anyone, at least that I am aware of. You are just taking insult out of nothing while rudely talking about others.

2). "Riot is making these changes because they legitimately feel that they will improve the overall state of the game." HA. I would like to see an actual, unbiased comment by a Riot employee say that. And even if they do/did, they are probably just saying it so they don't get fired. I bet the real thing behind those lines is that they don't give a crap and actually want to throw the AP side into the dirt and keep rubbing their heels in it.

3). I know they intentionally left others weak. Doesn't change the fact that they made the AD side overly strong and still hasn't fixed many of the problems there. Besides Malzahar and possibly Brand, the whole AP update was god awful and made them too weak. I don't recall them having to do a hotfix on the AD side a week after the update came out, but who knows my memory could be failing me.