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This game has fallen a long way

KirbyCake··114 votes·5,013 views

Changing MMR into a league system was a disimprovement. Changing solo/duo into dynamic queue was a disimprovement. Changing the warding system is a disimprovement. Before, investing gold for wards is a trade off, nowadays people spam wards without a second thought because they are free. Changing the jungle system was a disimprovement. The jungle timers just reduce the skill level in this game. Also the new jungle mobs don't really offer more diverse choices on what to smite because 99% of the time its obvious what to smite. The new jungle items is just to force smite to have a bonus on champions is making sure there isn't a trade off between potentially losing damage on champions and securing objectives ( although smite was still mostly always required ). Most reworks are just terrible, and you don't even offer skin refunds when the champion is completely different. These reworks are to remove silences and reduce the number of targeted abilities.

Most changes you have made have reduced the strategy in this game and make decision making quite brain dead. The only thing you want are champions that can make big plays, and remove mechanics that can shut down these champions that make big plays ( like silence or targeted abilities ) Too bad less and less people watch LCS anyways. High elo players also play on smurfs rather than solo queue on their main accounts because who would want to roll the dice with dynamic queue.

115 Comments

Linna Excel24 votes

While I like the trinket and pink ward system, I do wonder if riot has forgotten about the player base.

Most reworks are just terrible, and you don't even offer skin refunds when the champion is completely different. These reworks are to remove silences and reduce the number of targeted abilities.

Yes. This pisses me off a lot. Riot screws up a number of champs in their reworks. Either because Ryze getting 400,000 reworks, or cass getting 300, or soraka kit is still an issue after her last big rework. Then you've got the little things like the Poppy rework which messed up her Q and gave her a problematic ult.

Serpents Embrace37 votes

Cass has gotten two. They were both mistakes, but she's only gotten two.

And you can't look at anyone with a straight face and tell me Poppy's current ultimate is more problematic than Diplomatic Immunity was.

Linna Excel3 votes

Problematic to use as you can save an enemy if you misuse it.

In terms of brokenness, the old one was worse but easier to use and didn't have as much decision making.

MohawkBird22 votes

So basically is your argument is "This ult is problematic because unskilled players can mess up." That is not what a rework is about. Poppy got a pretty good kit and now has a decent niche to fill. Just because people can potentially mess up an ult doesn't mean the skill is problematic. Do you think Bard's ult is problematic too because it can be misused?

Tiny Trickster2 votes

And Janna.

Sîndragösa1 votes

How is her new kit better ? I was a poppy player but after her rework I stopped her completly. honnestly I think the current poppy mains are at least 90% different from pre rework ones. The point of playing poppy was to completly destroy people and dive 1v5 ezpz in the lategame after having been bullied and starved for 20 min then farmed up during the midgame. Just another tank.. this is what they turned the mighty crusher into. Thanks no more for me and obviously no refund for this shitty champion I will never touch thanks greedy messed up greatfather RIOT [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Wumachine1 votes

Did you know 90% of people make up statistics?

AlwaysByMySide16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e6yXf0PE,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-07-10T00:09:21.242+0000)

Problematic to use as you can save an enemy if you misuse it.

In terms of brokenness, the old one was worse but easier to use and didn't have as much decision making.

... So it's a problem because you actually have to have skill to use?

Jesus.

ShadowParker1 votes

You don't like Cass' latest rework? Just curious as to why.

Serpents Embrace5 votes

I think the hotfix addressed a lot of the problems that came with it, but...

I like the passive. Aspect of the Serpent is, in my opinion, the worst thing that's ever happened to Cassiopeia. Ever. It was awful, promoted an awful play-style of jumping through arbitrary hoops for boring stats and set the trend of this idiotic "late game mage carry" they keep pushing. Serpentine Grace is dull and I think it could use some other clause in there to make it more fun or dynamic but it gets the job done, doesn't drag you down too much on the levels it's weak (when people buy boots but you haven't gotten the same benefit from Grace yet it's a detriment).

But her basic skills are what's the worst about this current iteration. They fixed the range problem they initially had with the Q, but that change alone made her unplayable before the hotfix. You had shorter effective range than most melee characters you'd be laning against and it made you a pointless pick.

The W and E are my real problems. The new Miasma is trash, imo. Up until this rework Miasma was your most reliable self defense tool. It was your most reliable utility spell. They removed all that to put in Grounded which is pretty useless and has only impacted my games with her a handful (literally it's only four or five times it's been obviously helpful). The perception people have of Grounded and the way they act out of fear of it does more than it could ever hope to accomplish. But the minimum cast range is what really kills it. I can no longer use Miasma to attack an assassin who has jumped to me, of which there are myriad. Which means I have to rely on Q alone to poison to deal with them, exacerbating Cassiopeia's already crippling assassin weakness.

The hotfix addressed how clunky the new E was, but I'm honestly still pretty annoyed with the scaling being per level and it still doesn't feel as smooth, rewarding or impactful as her previous E iterations. I do not miss the idiotic "poisons deal more damage if you spam this" E focus Stashu had put in to the kit because it promoted the wrong idea of her as some late game fang machine gun, but this current iteration is like... Twin Fangs 4 kids! Though I suppose it has to be with how much they butchered the W, having the CD punishment for hitting a non-poisoned target would occur a lot more often since your W poison is now completely useless, unwieldy to aim and has an even worse up-time to recharge than before.

I'm just glad that the hotfix made her playable, even if she still has some issues. But, yeah. Deadly Cadence Cass is still the best Cass.

GerAvos12 votes

Poppy q is fine and her ult is really awesome in my opinion

Poske3 votes

{quoted}

Poppy q is fine and her ult is really awesome in my opinion

She is no longer poppy

Old poppy had her niche It was her ulti and Ramping up.

New poppy has niche to but it doesnt resemble the old poppy

New poppy has the same issues the old 1 had (Requires enemies to be dumb just so she can E pin them) the fact that they didnt fix that is A FAIL

Poppy ulti lacked Counterplay. They could made it so that enemy allies can harm poppy in any way really if they are near selected target from old poppy r(300 range)

And then she could keep her ultimate. Of course she could gain some power in other areas

Her ulti is not awesome

Arakadia2 votes

They screwed with my Swain...

GaleWinUnleashed3 votes

That one is just a hold-over until they can give him a full VGU (potentially sometime next year). Something to look forward to.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

Arakadia1 votes

I guess. I hope his full VGU is like Shen's, much better and mroe fun then the old one. I play alot of SHen too.

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

I'm just hoping that the VGU means he can finally get the Dragon Master Swain skin he deserves. But gameplay and base model come first.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

aLawfulFalafel1 votes

your statement confuses me

old shen = fun

new shen = meh, at least im trolly?

Arakadia1 votes

How was old shen much more fun then new shen? I mean the lifetap was cool and AP shen was fun but thats it.

New shen is all pretty and cool. He maybe doesnt feel super impactful but what he trades for AoE damage and CC is dueling and massive utility.

Have a Nice Game1 votes

At least swain and the other mages retained their playstyles.

Malzahar on the other hand...

Arakadia1 votes

Poor Malz mains, they got it the worst for sure.

But Swain got changed more then Vel'Koz I'd say. Vel's Q restores mana on kill, his passive's true damage is basiclly the same but his ult can do true damage. Swain got a whole new Q, made his Q better to max then E, and then the many changes to his ult:

  • Can hit 5 targets

  • ingores MR

  • 20 second cooldown

  • 2 second delay before turning it off

  • more CDR reliant in general for his kit..

I mean Malz is still much more different but Swain got screwed up.

AlwaysByMySide5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e6yXf0PE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-07-09T20:51:58.678+0000)

While I like the trinket and pink ward system, I do wonder if riot has forgotten about the player base.

Yes. This pisses me off a lot. Riot screws up a number of champs in their reworks. Either because Ryze getting 400,000 reworks, or cass getting 300, or soraka kit is still an issue after her last big rework. Then you've got the little things like the Poppy rework which messed up her Q and gave her a problematic ult.

Are you implying that Poppy's new ult is more problematic than her old one?

Bonipherus24 votes

It's not that they just don't like silences. They just don't want them on bursty assassins who already have enough counterplay issues as it is. Hyper-mobile and burst-oriented assassins are oppressive when you can't use your own kit to protect yourself against them. Silences are fine in the game as long as it's in the right champion's kit e.g. Garen

They've kept some reliable cc in the game but they try to make the power of these reliable cc abilities somewhat gated by decision making. See Annie Q stun vs Annie W stun and Ryze empowered W vs getting his shield, hitting more targets, or doing more single-target damage. Other abilities have turned into skillshots because of counterplay issues and balance reasons. Reliability in champion kits is fine as long as their entire kit isn't too reliable itself. Too much reliability leads to counterplay issues, a lower skill ceiling, and a less-fun time for the opponent. If the reliability in the champion's kit is out of line with the strength which it provides then that champion will usually see consistent nerfs.

I'll gladly admit that warding still needs work because of stealth is pretty binary and because of the current restrictiveness of item slots. However, I like gating wards behind timers instead of gold because once you are ahead in gold you can simply buy what you need to shut down the enemys vision and expand your own to give you a really substantial advantage in the game. Gating wards behind timers, like current trinkets, lets riot control the amount of vision at different stages of the game and force you to make more critical decisions of what, where, and when to ward as opposed to "I have money so I'll just ward here, here, here, and here. I might want to try and play a bit risky now and not place this one ward in this bush and instead let my trinket fill 2 wards so I can get more vision around the Baron pit in a few minutes.

redniwediS21 votes

I have to say that being able to track jungle timers in your head is a skill, but having an app that does it for you is not. People stopped treating it as a skill, and so it was no longer needed.

I'm glad they made that change.

KirbyCake17 votes

that is kind of true, but giving the exact timer without vision of the objective dying is still reducing the skill level.

Linna Excel10 votes

For baron and dragon, it was always pretty obvious when they went down.

franticFurball14 votes

No one who is complaining about jungle timers, is talking about baron and dragon.

Wolfeur10 votes

It doesn't reduces skill, it moves it. Now that you don't have to worry that much about getting the information, you have time to think about what to do with it.

WunThousandOurs2 votes

How do you "move" skill?

MisterShameless1 votes

I think they meant you no longer need to plan ahead to find out when Dragon spawns and now you use that time to how you will plan on securing the next dragon. In this way, Riot promoted more teamfights around dragon/baron which was their goal/intent.

WunThousandOurs1 votes

At the expense of players ignoring towers to secure a Dragon or a player deciding not to group at all because they don't view the objective as important.

CeexSett2 votes

Riot confirmed their intention was to make players not needing to be counting timers, so they can instead focus in setting wards, planning rotations and strategies, instead of just counting down seconds.

WunThousandOurs1 votes

These changes only benefits certain types of players and provides more issues than they solve.

1.) Global timers (without having vision of the objective's death) has lead to more Jungle invades and counter jungling.

2.) Which leads to the warding. Players were complaining about investing gold into wards, so now we have "free wards," but we can only have 2 instead of the previous 3. Unfortunately, receiving a free trinket hasn't resulted in players buying more Pink wards, nor do majority of players upgrade their Trinkets as they should.

3.) Leading to rotations and strategy, there are still players who ignore objectives, which in turn causes game times to be longer. Some players are still forcing Barons when their are open towers because they don't fully understand death timers. Some players are still backing after getting an ace. Players are still missing teleports or not utilizing minion waves as additional vision.

4.) Most of the issues players have is with decision making, experience, and lack of knowledge. Changing an item or reworking champs doesn't improve a player's skill. It only strengthens their weaknesses.

CeexSett1 votes

Such a big wall of text and not a single productive word given. Do you want a medal for being able to cite facts?

ModCaptainMårvelous15 votes

{quoted}

Changing MMR into a league system was a disimprovement. Changing solo/duo into dynamic queue was a disimprovement.

Yeah, I can see that.

{quoted}

Changing the warding system is a disimprovement. Before, investing gold for wards is a trade off, nowadays people spam wards without a second thought because they are free.

Absolute bullshit.

Do you not remember Season 2? When supports ran around with 25+ wards and just warded the shit out of everything? There was ZERO strategic management to wards. Nor in Season 3 or 4 when they put a cap. You could dump so many wards that vision control was child's place. Now you actually have to think about where you ward because you get very few wards -or- your wards are visible and fragile. Hell, if we had any less wards we'd be on the same level as DoTA2 which only gives a max of 4 vision wards per team. (Unlimited sight wards but those don't give vision)

{quoted}

Changing the jungle system was a disimprovement. The jungle timers just reduce the skill level in this game. Also the new jungle mobs don't really offer more diverse choices on what to smite because 99% of the time its obvious what to smite. The new jungle items is just to force smite to have a bonus on champions is making sure there isn't a trade off between potentially losing damage on champions and securing objectives ( although smite was still mostly always required ).

Disagree as a whole but agree on the jungle timers.

Smite means that there's a little more available when it comes to what smite does, although I liked the S4 smite styles better because the four felt different. Green doesn't even do anything now but I wish it did. Smiting creatures would be more useful if Junglers had more of a choice from chickens but that's something easily tweaked, as we saw when Gromp made tank junglers stupid strong. As it is now, jungler diversity is about the same...but that's always been the case.

{quoted}

Most reworks are just terrible, and you don't even offer skin refunds when the champion is completely different. These reworks are to remove silences and reduce the number of targeted abilities.

Again, completely false.

Gangplank, Fiora, Ryze, and most of the class-based reworks all play drastically differently and have actual niches and playstyles rather than faceroll-on-keyboard simplistic styles or overlap to the level of Morg vs. Lux or Sejuani (OG) vs. Amumu. While I do agree there should be refunds, saying most of the reworks are terrible is just flat out wrong. (Although at this point we're getting into crazy opinion land)

{quoted}

Most changes you have made have reduced the strategy in this game and make decision making quite brain dead. The only thing you want are champions that can make big plays, and remove mechanics that can shut down these champions that make big plays ( like silence or targeted abilities ) Too bad less and less people watch LCS anyways. High elo players also play on smurfs rather than solo queue on their main accounts because who would want to roll the dice with dynamic queue.

Yeah that's why they added champions like Tahm and Kindred who have strong point and click abilities. It's why they put in Cass and Poppy who have grounded mechanics that completely stop these "LCS BIG PLAY" dash dash dash flash big stun mechanics. (Most of which being introduced in Season 1-3 by the way.) So basically every step they take to try and fix some problem with the game, we're not allowed to because "these champs are fine the way they are".

All in all, it's just like any other post you see on gameplay. Another nostalgia bait without even considering that many of these problems were existent in the seasons before and that every single positive step taken is overwritten because of a personal "Well -I- don't like it so I think it's terrible" clause.

Gulma2 votes

no, the new warding sucks. Why? they reworked pink wards and made ganking so pivotal that lvl 1 ward trinkets are a necessity. Remember wrigglers lantern?

ModCaptainMårvelous6 votes

Hey.

Level 1 ganks have always been a thing.

Also hey.

Level 1 wards were standard. Sometimes 2/3. Once you get past the 5 minute mark?

DUMP. THAT. SHIT. EVERYWHERE.

Marshbouy6 votes

Salty veteran detected that wants to go back to "the good ol days" i only agreed with the things about MMR and soloQ. otherwise you are just flat out wrong.

franticFurball22 votes

You do realize, that "Veterans" are the backbone of any gaming community?

Marshbouy12 votes

i do realize that, but so are the new players. the salty part was the insult, not the veteran part. I'd be fine with the post if half of it wasnt subjective bullshit

P0IS0N IVY2 votes

If everything wasn't subjective on the forums in your subjective opinion, there wouldn't be anything to talk about.

WunThousandOurs6 votes

I'm not sure I agree. "New players" are a double-edged sword.

franticFurball5 votes

but so are the new players.

Not really.

New players in any massively popular game, have a high turnover...they come quickly, the go quickly.

if half of it wasnt subjective bullshit

I didn't see you provide counter-arguments, so your post is just as subjective.

Marshbouy1 votes

how do you counter a subjective argument? by throwing out more subjective stuff? if you read his post you would realize.

we can't spam wards anymore due to warding changes.

the latest reworks aimed at making the champions more fun, somehow OP dislikes that.

Point and clicks are pretty toxic. IMO at least.

literally the OP is just saying a bunch of subjective stuff "its obvious what to smite, the reworks are terrible, you can just spam wards now".

franticFurball2 votes

how do you counter a subjective argument?

With factual evidence that disproves the subjective point of view.

literally the OP is just saying a bunch of subjective stuff

Ooookay...lets see what we have here:

we can't spam wards anymore due to warding changes.

Compared to how wards used to work (aka. you had to buy them, green and pink), we actually can spam them today...because they are free and self-refilling.

the latest reworks aimed at making the champions more fun, somehow OP dislikes that.

Whats "fun" and what isn't is dependent on personal preference...aka. its completely subjective.

Point and clicks are pretty toxic. IMO at least.

"IMO" = In my OPINION ... also subjective.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Marshbouy1 votes

how do you counter things like "this is a terrible rework" with facts? how? its up to opinion.

we can't. Did you play in season 5 compared to season 6? I could have sworn everyone was complaining about not having vision, and still are. wards are on a 2 minute cooldown at early levels. That's not spammable.

thats what im saying. its subjective.

how do i prove that its not? How, exactly? Didn't i say

how do you counter a subjective argument? by throwing out more subjective stuff?

franticFurball2 votes

how do you counter things like "this is a terrible rework" with facts?

Player numbers. The subjective PoV is irrelevant, important is the audience perception of a product. If Player Numbers rise, its good, if they fall, its bad.

Did you play in season 5 compared to season 6?

I even played in Season 3: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/40162222#ranked-stats

I could have sworn everyone was complaining about not having vision

Correct. Then Sightstone happened. Still we couldn't just place loads of wards without investing huge amounts of gold, and neither could the support, because he was limited to placing 3, and had to use them strategically.

wards are on a 2 minute cooldown at early levels. That's not spammable.

Whats more "Spammable"...?

  • a ward trinket that everyone has, which is on a 2 min cooldown, and starts with one charge ready,

  • having no wards at all, because they are items, that you need to buy in the shop, for gold you actually want to invest into your build

The correct answer is the first one. Spammable n the sense of freely put them whenever I want? No. Spammable compared to how it used to be? Definitely.

thats what im saying. its subjective.

No, its not. Its a perfectly objective comparison between two different vision/ward mechanics.

WunThousandOurs1 votes

It is a fact that lower tiers ward less than higher tiers. It is also a fact that lower tiers destroy less wards than higher tiers. It is also a fact that lower tiers place less Pink wards than higher tiers.

Due to these facts, Riot decided to address these issues by giving free wards so that it would be less gold invested at the cost of losing a ward (now can place two instead of the previous 3. This also provide Supports an option to ward that didn't directly affect their build path or already current gold consumption/experience gained issue.

Lastly, it's not just the Support's job to ward. Everyone needs to ward strategically. Wards are generally an issue when someone isn't using their free Trinket or doesn't upgrade it after Level 9, which is usually the case.

franticFurball1 votes

It is a fact that lower tiers

Using less skilled players as an argument never worked, sorry.

Fact is, we can spam way more wards now than we could before.

Lastly, it's not just the Support's job to ward

Who said that?

or doesn't upgrade it after Level 9, which is usually the case.

Btw. trinkets upgrade automatically...at least they used to when I stopped playing 2 months ago.

Catastrop1 votes

{quoted}

I'd be fine with the post if half of it wasnt subjective bullshit

Same to be honest. Especially when people ramble off about "bad" reworks. Like I get that some people don't like reworks, but don't talk like it applies to us all.

aLawfulFalafel1 votes

but alot of the reworks have been "bad"

instead of releasing a new champ with these characteristics they warp it to fit an existing character which will only pander to the new players who haven't experienced the OG versions instead of pandering to all players.

were not saying the outcome is bad, or the champ itself is bad, were saying the REWORK is bad.

eg : if i take your cherries and give you a red banana and say its a cherry how would you feel about that? not cool right? BUT if i say : hey check out this red banana!

then you have the option to stick the cherries in your pocket and try this red banana.

whats "bad" is that players are having their cherries taken against their will and riot says, idk what you're talking about, i gave you a red banana! (i tried my best NOT to make this sound like rape, but i cant do it, riot RIOT i couldnt make an analogy about how you go about reworks NOT sound like rape WTF RIOT!)

so yeah, of course some people will be salty, ESPECIALLY if they bought toppings for their cherry but dont even HAVE A FUCKING CHERRY anymore...GIMME MAH CHERRY

RIP cherries

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