The jungle is broken, straights up decides the game

KirbyCake·Dec 9, 2016·48 votes·4,606 views

Don't you think its a little bit busted when just 1 role controls 70%+ of the game?

Literally every high elo player thinks so.

96 Comments

GelmousDec 9, 201618 votes

Literally every "logical thinker" thinks so.

ftfy

dominusxDec 9, 20163 votes

well you dont see much logic low elo now do ya!? :p

Kharn SkyshatterDec 9, 201614 votes

Riot: Power farming is unhealthy. Everyone else: We prefer them power farming over ganking all the time. Riot: LCS Bigplays tho.

Troll for TrumpDec 9, 20168 votes

Not as much as the ADC...

It's the things that are "mandatory"

You "have to" have a ranged AD ADC for the "bot" role, but for Top/Mid you have more variety. It's usually tanky top, but you don't have to do that (wukong, for example, or teemo). Mid has the most variety. Support does as well. Jg is... technically unrestrained, but it's generally a giant stat check

WoonStruckDec 9, 20166 votes

Every match I've been in this season has been the result of jungle presense, not roams/outplays.

Far too much gold/exp early on. Your first back is practically guaranteed ~1100 gold. You hit 6 relatively early in your second clear. That used to be the window Junglers had to avoid ganks since they would be 5 while laners were 6 or 7.

Sett up 4my gankDec 9, 20166 votes

The jungle is fine tbh, its the champs that dominate it that are the problem. Lee Shyv Vi Olaf all clear it way to fast and with way to much health. Make the sustain from jungle items only work when below 60% max health and make them a tad stronger to compensate, stops those champs from staying at 100% health and closes the gap with weaker junglers.

TalisidDec 9, 201612 votes

It bugs me that suddenly Vi is being targeted for nerfs when she's been relatively well balanced and free of big changes since release.

Riot fucks up the jungle in a way that makes her clear speed super fast and suddenly she's broken? It really sucks for anybody who wants to play Vi in a lane (rare though they are).

YumaS2AstralDec 9, 20161 votes

I didn't knew that Vi could lane

Kha'Zix I know, he used to be a laner, but Riot has been balancing him exclusively around the jungle, and I don't know why...

GayFluffyUnicornDec 10, 20163 votes

Vi was originally designed to be a toplaner.

ValeckseraiDec 9, 20167 votes

That's partly due to the new keystone, not just the jungle itself.

AgeOfTheMageDec 9, 20164 votes

Don't forget supp

RookPusherDec 9, 20164 votes

If ADC's took advantage of their support, jungle wouldn't matter. There's an island of lost kills somewhere, and it's full of opportunities I've given out only to be thrown away.

AgeOfTheMageDec 9, 20164 votes

yeah, i hate when theres a free kill cause of me and the adc doesn't kill them :I

ZT XperimentorDec 9, 20164 votes

Oh like marksmen have been doing for years?

GayFluffyUnicornDec 10, 20163 votes

Oh please junglers are controlling the game ever since riot updated the jungle in s3 and it only got worse by opening the jungle to more and more champs+ reducing vision.

statelesskillerDec 9, 20164 votes

sounds like we are in a jungle meta.

nothing wrong here

Hayaishi2Dec 9, 20163 votes

been like this since season 4

Jeanne fan clubDec 10, 20163 votes

Accurate breakdown of all positions...

Top: Tank for supporting the jg

Jg: Carries for the team

Mid: Supports jg

ADC: Fleshbag for taking attention away from jg so they can carry (unless you are twitch, vayne or cait)

Support: Supports adc for the first 8 minutes then supports jg the rest of the game

LankPantsDec 10, 20161 votes

Even when the jungle is at its most powerful their power is derived from shutting down or feeding an ADC. Just look at who's popular right now, Lee Sin, Vi, Rengar, these champs don't have much carry potential, they can snowball ADCs and shut down ADCS.

Jeanne fan clubDec 10, 20161 votes

You are forgetting hecarim, kha zix, zac, and shyvana.

Now Idk about you, but if i wanted to play a champion where i knew that my teammates wouldn't do their jobs, id probably go vi, just based on the fact that she is a guaranteed kill on the enemy adc in a teamfight. Vi's job isnt to snowball her own adc, she has enough in her kit to be the adc pretty much, especially with coc. That's like a 700 shield just on her own, maybe even more with a support giving her one too. Also, her cd on ult is extremely low, and if she ends up getting fed early and going full damage, she doesn't need to bother with tank items, because the survivability from the new keystone, and her own passive shield will soak up the damage from an enemy team who is behind. Also, vi still does extremely well in a teamfight after she assassinates the ennemy adc, mostly because her q allows her to keep dashing on a relatively short cd. Honestly, imo vi is the absolute best jg in the game, with the most carry potential out of all of them, but its just my opinion.

Lee I can agree with that his job is usually to get his teammates fed, this patch at least, last patch because of the lvl 3 cheese I think he was a lot more of a carry.

Rengar is supposed to be an assassin, but lately I see him building like 2500 hp, or going really strange builds that give him a lot of tankiness but very little damage, so ill agree with you there, but he only has one cc ability.

Kha zix is a straight up assassin who roams to all the lanes and racks up kills. He usually ends up being the teams carry, so imo if he gets fed, he doesn't need an adc to win games

Zac does need to feed his adc, and his job is to be an initiator instead of a carry. Still does stupid damage though.

Shyvana is a carry who only needs an adc to ensure that bot tower survives long enough for her to get her items. Shyvanas job is not to feed her adc, her job is to farm up and completely detonate the enemy team once she is ready. If her job was to feed the adc then she would gank bot much more often, however she spends most of early game in the jg, and only ganks when she is 6. Her job is not at all to support the adc, its to carry the team herself.

Hecarim either gets himself fed, or gets himself and the adc fed. Usually these days I see hecarims going damage instead of tank. It is not at all uncommon for me to see a Hecarim with 11 kills while his laners have no more than 2. Id consider hecarim a carry in himself, and his power is not necessarily dependent on how his adc is doing.

Yeah, idk i disagree with you that vi is not a carry champion, but i kind of agree that lee and rengar aren't very much carry champions as of right now. Also when I said that JG is the carry position that gets supported, I meant more than just those 3 jgs. If you look at the top 8 jg's right now on champion.gg, you would see that all of the jg's that I mentioned were in the top 8. Its also extremely common for them to be banned in almost every ranked game.

LankPantsDec 10, 20161 votes

You're conflating being a damage based champion with being a primary carry. Kha'zix, Rengar, Vi, Lee ect are all anti-carries, assassins by another name. Their goal is to get onto an enemy carry and shut them down. In that way they derive their power purely from the power of shutting down the enemy carry.

Hecarim and Zac both specialise in singling out the enemy carry and locking them down, they are in no way carries, they act as primary tanks.

Shyvana is a secondary carry and a secondary tank, she's interesting because she lacks the damage to be a true carry or the CC to be a true tank. Out of these champs she's the only one who really derives any of her value intrinsically, all of the other champs you listed are to some degree anticarries. The game is incredibly over-centralised around a few strong ADs right now.

Jeanne fan clubDec 10, 20161 votes

what are you defining a carry as? I am defining a carry as someone who is able to influence the game on a higher level than other champions. Someone who "carries" the team. Im saying that these jg's are carries because they both influence all lanes at a higher level than other champions can, an are able to not only delete squishies, but fight the enemy tanks and win as well. They do significant damage and are able to survive easily through a teamfight.

Kitty HoleDec 9, 20162 votes

I don't get why you would ask for an opinion that you wouldn't accept? Whats the point? An actual high elo player (in their right mind) would understand that you and your enemies have a mutual disadvantage. What kills the jungle? item 3340 . What killed the victim? Not using it.

VekknaDec 9, 201621 votes

Evelynn Khazix LeeSin Nocturne RekSai Shaco Zac

What is item 3340 and why do I care about it?

Kitty HoleDec 9, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Dude... item 2055 Your acting like escaping a gank is impossible.

Divine WindsDec 9, 20164 votes

If the jungler decides to flash on you, and cc's you so your enemy laner can get ahead with that extra kill... Then yes it is inescapable. You know that as long as the jungler gets your enemy laner 1 kill, it could potentially decide the lane and the game. Akali

Kitty HoleDec 9, 20162 votes

You can avoid this with vision and asking your jungler to help. Closed mouths dont get fed kid. What would you have riot do for preventing a gank that they already haven't done for the game? Oh and lastly dude, you don't lose lane in one death. Get real.

VekknaDec 9, 20163 votes

There are 6 jungle entrances to mid lane and another 2-4 for junglers who can ignore walls. Invisiblity isnt detected by control wards.

So you need 100% uptime on at least 8 wards to actually ward against ganks. Since that is completely impossible, jungle needs to be balanced around something less than near-guaranteed kills on most gamks.

Kitty HoleDec 9, 20165 votes

Sigh.. Man your a tit, im done holding hands. If you cant take simple solutions or learn from your losses then yea the jungle will forever be SO op... To you.

Papa AndreiDec 10, 20164 votes

Well he does have a point. Think of Zac, or Hecarim, Each can easily gank you via a nontraditional path. Hecarim can literally just run down the lane with Ghost E and Ult. Zac can jump from either bush, raptors, or other side of the turret near Wolves. It is hard to keep up vision on all those spots for newer and non grouped teams.

Kitty HoleDec 10, 20163 votes

I play the game too dude ive seen both hec and zac jungle. Trust me, both of their dives come with a double edge sword especially mid to late game. They can be countered with cc and since both build tank/bruiser your mid laner and adc can melt them. Always remember though, you wont always be blessed with "even" teams.

Papa AndreiDec 10, 20161 votes

Oooooh ye i know what you mean for mid late game. I am talking about how early game they can easily just snowball a lane completely, especially if the enemy laner is pure damage, yes if they can survive mid game they should have the tools to survive (If facing like zed a Zhonyas and barrier and flash.) But early game when its still pre 6 or just hit 6, its a very scary time that can easily spiral out of control.

LegendsofthedarkDec 10, 20162 votes

I think that Arcsecond (one of the highest ranked NA Challengers, was 1. for a while) once said that if you don't know where enemy jungler is, assume he is there and play accordinly.

VekknaDec 12, 20161 votes

Or both of the lane entrances behind your turret. Or through/over walls. It's literally impossible to effectively ward from them.

And even if you could, I can't count how many times Hec just tower dives minionless and assassinates in his cc duration.

Papa AndreiDec 12, 20161 votes

Ye, its why if i play mid, and I don't know where the jungler is, I act like they are invisbile and standing right next to me.

nice icon btw

Sett up 4my gankDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There are 6 jungle entrances to mid lane and another 2-4 for junglers who can ignore walls. Invisiblity isnt detected by control wards.

So you need 100% uptime on at least 8 wards to actually ward against ganks. Since that is completely impossible, jungle needs to be balanced around something less than near-guaranteed kills on most gamks.

Oh come on dude, you do not need even remotely 8 wards to ward against ganks from mid, 1 pink and 1 normal ward and smart playing is by far enough to avoid ganks.

VekknaDec 12, 20161 votes

Not usually, for most jungles or jungle players. But there are a handful of junglers at the moment that overlevel you in jungle and who cannot be effectively warded against.

Sett up 4my gankDec 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not usually, for most jungles or jungle players. But there are a handful of junglers at the moment that overlevel you in jungle and who cannot be effectively warded against.

Then use other means to avoid ganks. Notice changes in your opponenets gameplay, note where your jungler is if hed be able to be there quickly and help, if you havent seen the enemy jungler in awhile play like hes at your lane. It really isn't hard to avoid jungler's if you pay attention to the map as a whole and not just your lane.

VekknaDec 12, 20163 votes

I don't disagree with any of that. The issue is that there are OP junglers at the moment who couldn't care less how you play. You could be safely CSing under turret, and they dive you with virtually no counterplay. Even if you land a cc on them (usually a root), they don't give a shit.

Khazix root doesn't stop jump Hecarim root doesn't stop charge, and he double cc's you on dives Nocturne spellshield cc immune LeeSin root doesn't stop jump Shyvana root doesn't stop jump

Most of these clowns have had any changes to their kids or builds this season. The only difference is that they're even or ahead on xp in the new jungle instead of being behind on average and even when ahead. So balanced kits have become oppressive due to early stat advantages and the ensuing snowball.

I'm not whining for the fun of it. I'm a mid/sup main with lots of experience getting ganked. As a Zyra main, I have a better chance than most against ganks and turning a 1v2 into a double.

When you're fully warded and standing under your turret with no minions, and the enemy Hecarim who just finished TF runs out of jungle at 100 mph and assassinates you under your turret (still no minions) before you have any control of your character, there's a problem. The point is that it doesn't matter if you catch him with a ward or if you're under turret because he doesn't give a shit, and that's true to various degrees of several junglers right now.

The point is that you can talk about wards and positioning all day long, but neither of those things matter enough at the moment. Hec just runs past that pink ward and dives you. If you flash, he just runs under the next turret for the kill. It happens in every game I see him in, and the players on the shit end of that deal are gold-diamond players who know how to ward and position. It just doesn't matter.

ZelorxonDec 10, 20161 votes

16 people so far that don't know how to ward, don't worry, one day somebody will come to carry you out of bronze.

VekknaDec 12, 20161 votes

You're right. It's not hard to ward against silver junglers.

ZelorxonDec 12, 20161 votes

I know this feeling so well, i stopped buying red trinket since i go to sweep a whole quadrant of jungle and i never find a single ward, then i come out and i get a triple because all lanes have my same farm, so basically it's like i have triple their farm, not counting that since i'm a way better jungler than the average low diamond jungler i usually take half the farm from the enemy jungle and this increases the gap further, where's the fun in that...

But i noticed that they start warding once they're losing, as if easing their guilt complex will prevent them from losing, but when you don't know how to use a tool it doesn't matter how sharp it is, it will always be used below its capabilities.

VekknaDec 12, 20161 votes

So you're saying that ganks are super easy because you have an xp and gold advantage on laners, but a ward would stop you from ganking with that advantage?

Do you have a main account in diamond you'd like to share with the class?

ZelorxonDec 12, 20161 votes

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=ihated2players

This one.

VekknaDec 12, 20161 votes

So you've won 11/14 games on junglers I identified as being problematic, and you believe you only won those because high plat/diamond laners don't know how to ward?

ZelorxonDec 12, 20161 votes

Do you realize that i play on EU and that is an NA account? Awareness, try to put a ward around that post, maybe you won't get ganked so often.

VekknaDec 12, 20161 votes

Lots of players have accounts on two servers, including myself. Not sure why that would be considered unusual.

swagyeet420Dec 10, 20161 votes

I get your point and I agree, but why is vi on that list? You can see her with more than enough time to get out of r range usually

VekknaDec 12, 20161 votes

It's when I'm under my own turret and she dashes through the raptor wall and hits R. It's mostly a problem for red side mid because you typically get more vision on the jungler with your pink on bot river side. If you're blue, you'll probably have the brush behind dragon pit pinked anyway.