Don't nerf the back part of end of the line. It's high damage because it's difficult to hit.
Instead go for the things that he's extremely obnoxious that make him so unfun to play against; his strong waveclear/damage via autoattacking and his obscene tankiness even when he's got nothing but a PD and Warrior's.
Brutalitops0120 votesI agree with pulling back the True Grit on his E's bonus defenses a bit, however I also think he needs a huge hit to his damage. Specifically in the autoattacks. Sincerely, someone who has been literally 2-hit by a Graves while attempting to assassinate him.
Tyto Mors2 votesi mean they did nerf the passive armor/mr stacks, like lowered by 5 total early and 20 late game. at least i think thos are the numbers.
Brutalitops016 votesThey nerfed it down from 120 to 70 late game on the PBE, but I've heard that change has been reverted.
Tyto Mors1 votesi was way off on the numbers, but that would have been even better.
Akali is SO HOT13 votesIt was completely reverted so he'll still be a super tank while building full glass cannon
Tyto Mors6 votesfucking shit. that is literally what was needed the most so he couldnt just rape you while you deal no dmg to him.
yay nibbers5 votesPersonally, I don't mind the point blank damage too much, it fits the shotgun fantasy well. The problem is he still does decent damage at range...
I know there's other issues with him, but this is something that bothers me personally.
Meritas1 votesWhy can't people understand that the point-blank damage wouldn't matter if it ends up meaning the death for him.
Astôlfo19 votesRiot: "oh look, a ranged fighter with tons of damage, mobility, ridiculously low cooldowns gets to stack tons of resistances and sustain"
nerfs resistance stacking on a fighter ... reverts it hits damage instead
http://www.highlandernews.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ops.meme_.nba_-1024x768.jpg
Velzard of Koz1 votesI am not Graves expert but I am more annoyed by the fact his basic attacks feel just as powerful as Jhin's can grow, yet his reload time starts lower than that of Jhin and can be decreased. I realize Jhin has four bullets while Graves has two, yet when I played Jhin and Graves, I felt that I am punished for running out of ammo as Jhin more than as Graves while Graves' basic attacks felt as powerful as ability, yet ability with nearly no cooldown. From my opinion it put him to be more of a buster rather than sustained damage like other ADCs yet burster with low CD burst.
Astôlfo1 votesThe difference is Graves' reload time is shorter and he has an E which can reload, give a dash that can go over walls, and stack ridiculous levels of resistances. Yes, it's mildly annoying. Just mildly. Yup. Totally.
Graves' autoattack counts as multiple, hence the non-penetrating AoE. Getting hit by more than one = basically taking multiple AAs at once from any other ADC.
His playstyle is more like a fighter. But he gets ranged attacks, mobility, a metric asston of resistances, AoE, extremely low CDs, one of the best pseudo-CC abilities in the game, and immense synergy with lifesteal.
Thanks Riot.
Craft Zeppelin12 votesWHY the hell he is ALLOWED to clear jungles taking no apparent damage at all? I think this darn company distained champs that abuse abilities or items. This damn knockback is only supposed to work on lane minions. RIGHT?
Hell if this can go through jungle champs with hard clears have the damn right to have 100% clears. Wukong should be able to confuse jungle creeps with his clone, khazix would be allowed to fear creeps with his Q. Hell even garen should be allowed to clear with full health through sheer might of his DEMACIA or whatever bull crap is pulled out
Astôlfo2 votesKindred gets nerfed for sustain and mobility in jungle. Which they deserved. But they still had to kite somewhat to not lose a ton of health. And Q CD was long without W up.
Meanwhile, Graves just shoots them in the face and ignores damage with stupid sustain just with a Hunter's Knife and his crapton of resistances. And then dashes everywhere.
Naomi CoffeeGoat1 votesHonestly with the W changes Kindred's clear is very healthy. Not as healthy as when they had heal and they could just proc off a monster while passing by or scuttle crab. But they can still decrease the movespeed and attack speed of monsters and save pots.
Astôlfo1 votesYeah, they did deserve nerfs.
TotalJerk1 votesI really don't understand why Riot doesn't seem to want Garen in the Jungle. His ganks are kinda lame so it isn't like he'd be broken or something.
Besthunterjk7 votesGut Graves 2k16!
Greymoore6 votesGraves, the newest champion to build rylais just to be able to hit the second part of his Q
McFatal2 votesGraves, the newest champion to build rylais just to be able to hit the second part of his Q
u have obviously never played vs a good graves
Rock MD2 votesu have obviously never played vs a good graves
No he's saying (as a joke) that Graves is gonna start buying Rylai's after this change that's going to make his Q explode more slowly after hitting terrain.
Unstoppable Monk1 votesIt's taking all of my willpower not to build this since I build Rylai's on Shyvana for the ultimate W getaway/stickiness on occassion.
TyroneWatermelon1 votesu have obviously never played vs a good graves
Expirienced or not,graves has nothing to offer to be good with,he's pure braindead,but if you get hit by the second wave without it being insta detonated by a wall or someone's 'cc'ing you,it's your fault
Sinlaire7 votesyeah. because a good graves would never wait to use it on you while you're preoccupied with fighting, stuck in minion waves, max ranging you for the splash detonation damage, or doing anything that a good player would do to make sure he got the full effect of his ability.
I mean, it's only possible that you have to be bad in order for the enemy player to do well right guys? i mean, it could never happen that the other guy is actually good right? right?
TyroneWatermelon1 votesyeah. because a good graves would never wait to use it on you while you're preoccupied with fighting, stuck in minion waves, max ranging you for the splash detonation damage, or doing anything that a good player would do to make sure he got the full effect of his ability.
I mean, it's only possible that you have to be bad in order for the enemy player to do well right guys? i mean, it could never happen that the other guy is actually good right? right?
Not with graves. That fully depends on the other side,Graves is still graves bronze or LCS,everything USB the same.
Only Play Darius2 votesI liked him more when end of the line didn't knock him back, it doesn't make sense that the "front-line ADC" is forced to disengage at the high point of his damage, and to top it off the animation just has him magically sliding back and simply looks half-assed and rushed.
Veltox2 votesEnlighten me. Why da hell people complain about Graves? A bunch of resistances he needs to constantly refresh to use? We have a obscene amount of armor pen this season..why it's a problem?
Rock MD5 votesEnlighten me. Why da hell people complain about Graves? A bunch of resistances he needs to constantly refresh to use? We have a obscene amount of armor pen this season..why it's a problem?
Because he's buying all the armor pen items (save Cleaver) and abuses them better than most champions while having more defenses against them than the average armor pen buyer.
Veltox1 votesThat is more of a current itemization problem.
Rock MD3 votesThat is more of a current itemization problem.
And thus, Graves is a problem.
In the current meta, Graves is still one of the top tier picks and whether it's because of Graves or not the issue still stands that he's one of the best by a long stretch.
Now we come to the part where we argue whether or not it's better to nerf all the armor pen items, nerf Graves, or both.
Veltox1 votesI vote for armor pen.
Armor and hp barely do shit when 
exists.
Rock MD3 votesI vote for armor pen. Armor and hp barely do shit when
Graves doesn't buy Dominik's though. His build looks like
(substitute 
with sometimes)
LazyW0lf1 votesWait, is he not a lifesteal tank anymore? I assumed they still took warlords and heir build looked like
I haven't seen a Graves in awhile apart from me playing him in ARAM, but I always build like a lifesteal tank. Is this just no longer viable because of the warlords nerf?
Drugoth2 votesHow about his AoE blind/slow that makes it so you can't see ANYTHING?
TheHappyReaperz2 votesDon't see the problem with Graves. I get that he has quite a bit of tankiness for a marksman (essentially), but, with the exception of his ult, he doesn't have a ton of long range damage. You can just cc him and let a long range mage or adc easily kill him.
Zelorxon1 votesyou have to keep in mind that the people who complain about graves being broken are those who go reksai full ad or instalock riven top when your team is full of ad squishies, also even if until plat people are too retarded to understand how right clicks work he's fairly easy to play for a person with a decent intellect, meanwhile nidalee which is like between 1.5 and 2 times more broken is pretty difficult to learn and master, so it passes unnoticed by crybabies, and high elo doesn't care because it's permabanned 24/7 people got a macro in their keyboard to automatically select her and ban her in champ select.
StoppedDig796052 votesI thought you where going to say some cigar joke
Pandemic Punch2 votesClose but no cigar.
SlntReaper1 votesYou know what buff he needs? HIS CIGAR!
Refer A Friend 12 votesYou know what buff he needs? HIS CIGAR!
I long for the day this dies out
dragon1xx1 votes... He vapes now. Get it straight.
Edgy Katana Man1 votesYou know what buff he needs? HIS CIGAR!
He vapes now, don't you read the boards?
Vallalan1 voteswhat they are doing with graves is puzzling. that they revert his armor/mr and keep nerfing his damage output is beyond me. they refuse to not making him tanky . and i sort of get it. he has to reload, he has to get in your face. without armor/mr he will just be blown up most of the time.
but if thats the case, if you say 'well damn this doesnt work" then it might be time to say the rework failed and look at other avenues.
Muffenman451 votesone time a graves did 74 percent damage from an auto i mean wtf granted i was ap ez
Ultîma1 votesI honest to go think all Graves need is a longer reload animation and actually give him windows of vulnerability where he can't unleash a full burst combo+autos for a kill. It works well for Jhin - why not try with him? His reload is so damn fast at the moment that it feels like it might as well not be there.
