AP feels so bad this season.

Rock MD··188 votes·8,472 views

(Taken directly from my post on General Discussion)

Outside of Ahri Lux Lissandra , it just feels really shitty to pick AP champions at the moment. Especially when AD champs are so disgusting right now.

Up against Zed? item 3155 100% counters your possibility of 100-0'ing him in lane.

What do you get in response? item 3191 which just negates a little poke because armor. Nevermind Hexdrinker gives MR to effectively do the same thing PLUS it has the anti-burst shield. The issue is exacerbated when your 2nd item, item 1058 gives nothing but AP, which is a little more damage and waveclear, to an AD's item 3134 which gives damage, armor pen to counter your Armguard, and a passive which helps ADs clear faster as well. Not like Zed needs it though.

No problem. I can just help our jungler pick off theirs.

item 3053 item 3156 lolnvm

Maybe I can go top and gank the...

Quinn item 3155 item 3053 item 3142 lolnvm

Perhaps I can get the adc...

item 3155 item 3053 item 3139 fucking really?

At least people need me on their team for mixed damage comps...

DrMundo Elise Jax KogMaw Malphite MasterYi

to add insult to injury you can easily just roll Quinn Graves Zed Lucian Braum and still stack enough armor pen to fuck anyone who tries to say otherwise.

224 Comments

Marshbouy37 votes

cant agree with this more oh you crushed Talon with Azir ? well he just hit level 6 and finished item 3155 GG

Kanzaki Ranko17 votes

{quoted}

cant agree with this more oh you crushed Talon with Azir ? well he just hit level 6 and finished item 3155 GG

Any AD is like that. Oh zed's 0/3 and finished his HexDrinker? Now you can't fight him and he can easily kill you because of the stats that broken item gives. Honestly, it should be put in the trash just like it's original form Runegorger.

Very Hard Engage16 votes

your issue here is zed is 0/3, never happens.

oh wait you're telling me it did happen? how many times did you 3v1 him, or give me the name of his booster.

Unstoppable Monk5 votes

I think people select Zed to counter someone instead of actually learning Zed or just having the experience needed to use him.

Then they realize that the Doran's Blade mid is kicking their ass while they are burning from the first blood ignite.

Marshbouy69 votes

"BUT A ZHONYAS CAN UNDO AN ENTIRE ADS KIT" 1300item 3140 1300item 3155 3500item 3157 rito pls...

LSD LobsterMoney5 votes

Zhonyas also makes you untargetable which in that time you could get your cd back and come into the teamfight stronger so, here in qss sure you stopped tarics stun but renek will still come w you and you will die

Baron of Bread27 votes

Unless you are Karthus your cooldowns aren't short enough that the Zhonya's will give you enough time to refresh them.

Auz the Ripper8 votes

i really feel seeker's should have a mini stasis, like 1 or .75 or even .5 seconds

similar to how hex drinker and tiamat have mini-versions of their final forms' effects

Papa Slothy2 votes

I honestly think as a over of AD and AP assassins that hexdrinker is a little too strong this patch

increased cost would be nice

Sadistic Veigar35 votes

Yeah and the three champs you mentioned all have one thing in common: safety. Ahri has three flashes, lissandra has a blink and lux has light year range

NineTailedMystic22 votes

Dashes aren't flashes.

Edit: Downvotes for correcting a mistake :^)

Knoyle9 votes

You're right. Sometimes the dash is better.

Wimbledofy11 votes

im just curious, but when could a dash ever be better than a flash? A flash is a blink and can go extra distance over terrain. A dash is just like super enhanced movement speed, if you try to dash through a wall and your dash doesn't go completely over it you get stuck before the wall.

Knoyle6 votes

That's like asking how Fizz E could be better than item 3157.

For Starters Dash is on a lower CD. You can use it as a damaging attack and you can use it twice in a row for a quick in and out or just use it once for a quick escape. And that whole failing to go through the wall thing applies to summoner 4 as well so, I don't even understand why you would bring it up.

EDIT: That feel when you are thinking of the wrong champion.

Ahri's is still better.

Wimbledofy12 votes

I don't mean the summoner spell, i mean the thing itself. As in a flash vs a dash. Also there is no such ability called dash, it is a dash so we should be comparing them for what it is. Op of this little chain said 4 flashes, someone said "dashes aren't flashes" next person said a dash is better. So we arent talking about 1 flash vs 4 dashes. We are talking 4 flashes vs 4 dashes.

So no it is nothing like asking how fizz E could be better than zhonyas, it would be like how fizz E 1 time could be better than using Stasis 1 time.

With a dash you CAN NEVER go more distance than what your dash distance is. With flash if you flash at least halfway past the wall you go all the way through it.

Context is important, try to use it in the discussion otherwise we are talking about very different things.

OneSmoothDude1 votes

Yeah I'm not sure why he brought up Zhonya's and was acting like Dash was a summoner spell. Weird.

I don't see how anybody could disagree with you on this though. On top of all the reasons you listed, there are also things like Veigar's E and Zilean bombs that a blink can go through while a dash can't. Countless zoning tools are useless when somebody can blink over them.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

that ties up a good bit of the power-budget though, so blinks are almost always on a longer cooldown (ah la: Zed's W at 18-14 seconds, Talon's E at 18-10 seconds and Ezreal's E at 19-13 seconds) or come at a cost to the kit (see:Kassadin)

dashes tend to be less powerful, thus are usually given more freely and are more accessible

MunchCrunchLunch35 votes

Ahri Fizz Lux Leblanc the fact that these champs are doing very well in an ad meta tells how how strong they are.

Curling Veigar43 votes

{quoted}

Ahri Fizz Lux Leblanc the fact that these champs are doing very well in an ad meta tells how how strong they are.

Because they're all safe. I kind of disagree with leblanc though

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

her winrate is low but it always has been. though she always does well in my matches. against me or on my team

67chrome27 votes

LeBlanc doing well is tied to a different metric than most champions.

A typical marksman can take out 50% of an enemy team's collective health if they do ok and position well. A typical mage can take out 50% of an enemy team's collective health if they use AoE to AoE. A typical assassin usually has a strong enough mix between resets and strong auto-attacks to take out 50% of an enemy team's collective health if you run in at the right time. A typical bruiser generally has a solid-enough mix of resets, strong auto-attacks, and solid AoE to take out 50% of an enemy team's collective health if they rampage correctly.

LeBlanc is pretty much hard-capped at 20% of an enemy team's collective health. Any situation she can approach 50%, you're looking at 1v5 pentakill potential with mostly everyone else.

Worse: several of LeBlanc's kills happen with no assists for her team, giving her team only 300 gold per kill where with most champions you get 450 gold teamwide because of an assist.


Anyways: LeBlanc having a solid KDA is usually more an illusion of her doing well over actually doing well.

HeadHonchkrow30 votes

LeBlanc

Illusion

gasp

charcharmunro6 votes

LeBlanc I've noticed tends to have high KDA, but low win-rate. Presumably because a fed LeBlanc is basically only capable of blowing up one person and then not much else.

GlockHammer12 votes

To be fair, everything that isn't FoTM feels completely garbage this season.

Downfall7 votes

This is what I don't like. All we see is FoTM champions, because no one else can keep up with them.

Szunray5 votes

I dunno. While theres f FOTM champs, it seems like the most random shit can and will work .

There are the fotm champs XinZhao Lucian Champs that just recently stopped being fotm MissFortune Yasuo DrMundo Champs that have always been popular Zed Lux Blitzcrank Thresh Champs that aren't popular and but win a lot Velkoz Skarner Zyra Champs that have quietly become overpowered KogMaw

I'd say theres tons of viable champs and ways to play. There could be even more if the community would lose some preconceptions. I've seen AP sions and AP tryndamere's carry games, but some players can barely handle the idea of an ADC Kindred.

Dessem2 votes

some players can barely handle the idea of an ADC Kindred.

It's partially why we have a lot of FOTM picks: people are very anxious when you play something that's unusual. Rather than pick something unusual, people're used to picking "what's normal".

The worst part is when people pick up certain things without knowing why. When you start Corruption Potion but then never poke your enemy, or go Doran's Blade bot and play extremely passively, or accidentally pick Nunu as ADC and then build IE and Shiv because "that's what the ADC builds!"... even when top is Quinn and already agreed to build ADC items instead.

Water Breathing11 votes

Doesn't feel bad to me, I always feel impactful when I play Zilean or Karthus, even against some AD champs. Ziggs is pretty strong - he has gotten a lot of buffs lately and armguard just got a buff too. Morgana is a good safe pick too, especially against Yas (when I don't want to pick Karthus).

summoner 21 is really good right now, I use it against AP and AD mids all the time. Blocks Zed's Ult, ignite, the new AD assassin item, Yas Ult, helps you survive against AP Ultimates...

I don't know, when I pick an AP champ I don't think to myself "screw this, I'll just go AD because they are better."

Kuroi8610 votes

Actually, stats show a lot of mages are doing fairly well.

But then again most immobile mages have a pretty steep skill floor to survive, so unless you pretty well main one then I expect they would feel pretty weak still.

Rock MD11 votes

{quoted}

Actually, stats show a lot of mages are doing fairly well.

But then again most immobile mages have a pretty steep skill floor to survive, so unless you pretty well main one then I expect they would feel pretty weak still.

See, I run into this argument a lot.

"If this role is so bad why do x, y, and z all have high winrates."

Probably because when all mages are compared against each other, some are going to come out with higher winrates and some with lower winrates.

Think about it. Besides GP and Zed not a lot of ADs are played mid (Talon is extremely broken right now so I'm surprised he's not on there). So odds are you have a mage, right?

And since their winrates all have to correlate to 50% in a specific lane, some will come out with higher winrates and some with lower winrates, but it all averages out to 50%. Makes sense?

{quoted}

You just got used to AP being completely more diverse and out right better than AD for 5 years, now that they are on even terms you don't like it.

I'm sorry I don't see where being outbursted and out-dpsed is even terms. Please, enlighten me.

Healz Please8 votes

I was wrecking pretty hard as Anivia earlier.

TheRealBaz7 votes

excuse me while i play full ad armour pen braum

jdizzle3677 votes

The issue is this season AD has great access to armor pen which does a hell of a lot of damage. (armor pen amplifies damage by a lot more than most people realize). There is item 3147 item 3156 and item 3142 all of these have good universal stats for offensive AD champions with solid build paths. Meanwhile ap has item 3151 item 3020 for flat magic pen. So if you don't have a lot of dot or very low cd poke the passive for item 3151 is all but useless so you can't really grab that. so beyond Sorc's there is no real access to flat mpen. So most mages are stuck with just a void staff which has 80 ap, 35% mpen and nothing else don't get me wrong 35% mpen is great but AD has 3 %arpen items item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 which all have decent stats beyond just their %arpen and fantastic passives.

And when we look into pseudo defensive items AD has it better there as well. The standard item for ad vs ap is item 3156 on top of the good stats the passive gives an anti burst shield and a lot of free stats while being fairly affordable as a first or second item meanwhile for ap vs ad you have item 3157 which has meh stats at best 100 ap is solid but 45 armor is not a lot especially with the current prevalence of armor pen. Its one redeeming factor is the active but it can be hard to know when use if you don't have a very linear pattern for it like Morgana Kennen and the like. Often the active just screws you over as often as it helps. It is also prohibitively expensive

More over AD has use for a great variety of stats than AP. AD can use crit if they are basic attack based which basically doubles their damage for free. They have life steal and there is even an ad spell vamp item. AP however gets their spell vamp nerfed into the ground because a few fringe cases can openly abuse the stat (Vladimir you ruin everything). AP and AD can both use CDR AP has a little more use for it than ad but in the case of AD VS AP assassins they both use it about the same. That being said AD has a much wider Access to CDR and has it on items that are good beyond just CDR. AP has basically 2 items that you have to use and if you would rather have flat mana as opposed to mana regen then you are shit outta luck when it comes to CDR.

I think that for AP champions to be able to compete again there needs to be a better AP vs AD defensive item than item 3157, more flat mpen (they could make a few more items that build out of item 3136) and better access to cdr for ap fighters and assassins that dont like item 3165 or item 3174

TLDR: AD champions have experienced major power creep in their itemization while AP itemization has stayed the same or even been nerfed.

stealthfox946 votes

Define feeling bad? I'm guessing not doing enough damage, which isn't true there's AP champs besides the ones you mentioned that deal insane burst damage Malzahar Brand Diana Viktor Just to name a few also Malzahar can totally still 100-0% a Zed that has item 3155 I know because I've done it.

GenghisEmo3 votes

Malz is anti-Assassin-ish, so i would not be surprised if you killed Zed, i'd be more surprised if you didnt XD.

Hemulen Magi6 votes

I think there are quite a few decent AP champs Fizz Ahri Lux Annie Janna Brand Malzahar Viktor Syndra Kassadin Lissandra DianaTwistedFate to name a few. Some of them might be slightly behind their AD counterparts, but I think it's mostly manaless Zed shoving them out of mid lane. There might be a few AP champs that are too underplayed or weak that they might need buffs to provide incentive to play them... Ehem... Karthus Mordekaiser Galio Zac Ziggs Rumble ... I think we mostly just need another AP/Armor item to help mages compete with midlane AD assassins and to help AP bruisers/juggernauts itemize. Something else to build out of item 3191 would be nice.

Rock MD6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YRrjLB2v,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-02-15T02:21:41.850+0000)

I think there are quite a few decent AP champs Fizz Ahri Lux Annie Janna Brand Malzahar Viktor Syndra Kassadin Lissandra DianaTwistedFate to name a few. Some of them might be slightly behind their AD counterparts, but I think it's mostly manaless Zed shoving them out of mid lane. There might be a few AP champs that are too underplayed or weak that they might need buffs to provide incentive to play them... Ehem... Karthus Mordekaiser Galio Zac Ziggs Rumble ... I think we mostly just need another AP/Armor item to help mages compete with midlane AD assassins and to help AP bruisers/juggernauts itemize. Something else to build out of item 3191 would be nice.

Fizz was alright but he's flat out overtaken by Zed EXCEPT as a counterpick to Zed. Like, the only time I want a Fizz on my team is because they have a Zed on the opposing team. Same applies to Diana. She's broken but she simply cannot compete except for counterpicking.

Again, Lissandra, Ahri, and Lux are pointed out in the OP to be the odd few. Don't include them.

Janna? Really? Are you serious? Janna is a support and if you build her AP I'm reporting you.

Brand is weak. His strength is tied into DFT and since the buff to the AP ratio isn't great on him, he's still in an odd, weak state. He's way too easily punished for his CDs and mana costs.

Malzahar is too clunky to abuse his damage and he's pretty predictable.

Annie is predictable as fuck.

Viktor and Syndra are only good in competitive/professional scenarios.

I'll give you TF but a majority of that is his endless utility. Not his damage. Also, one of the highest winrate toplaners right now is Pantheon so TECHNICALLY his niche already has a suitable AD replacement.

Kassadin is shit and his ramp up time is way too long. Won against a Kassadin today who could 100-0 me in a single combo but it wasn't enough to save his team since they fell behind in the period in which he had 0 impact because he's Kassadin.

Dairdrek4 votes

You would report some one for aging something that you aren't comfortable with, even though you have no knowledge of how good they are at that pick? What a dick...

Quort2 votes

Yea that'd be a pretty garbage thing for him to do.

Dairdrek2 votes

Also kassadin does take a while to ramp up yeah, but if he's any good, he'll steam roll you late game.

Anidan2 votes

Why is it that when there's every any opposition to an argument, there's always some sort of counterargument that's presented as if it's always true to shut down the opposition? Because nothing said here is consistently true.

Art Vandełay 4 votes

I made a thread about this yesterday, seekers armguard should have a lower duration and higher cooldown zhonyas effect, similar to how hexdrinker has an effect before completing maw.

Solaxo4 votes

Sorry I'm still enjoying my Malzahar (at least until they gut him in the incoming rework)

L0ve Is Blue4 votes

It's just the result of a lot of small changes riot made.

First there was the AP item patch, wich was about "giving AP champions multiple build paths", and by that i mean destroying the 120AP item tier and buffing items almost no AP use item 3003 item 3027 item 3151

Then there was the changes on MR (I don't remember on wich patch), that made MR a lot stronger (70 mr on item 3102 item 3065 +500 health and super good passives). Then there was the ADC patch where Riot deemed that "AP is a more efficient stat compared to AD" (basically a big fuck you we are making every AP item more expensive)... And on the same patch, every AD item gets buffed. What a surprise AD is stronger than AP omg how did that happened!?

Oh wait AD assassins are strong because of the AD item changes? Let's give them a new item they need love. item 3147.

So now, with 3 items item 3156 item 3142 item 3147, an AD assassin can get 40 FLAT armor pen, wich makes your item 3157 worth 5 armor...

The Voids Call2 votes

Oh also, they nerfed armor 2 patches after the AP item change, and as far as i'm aware, never reverted those changes.

Only Play Darius3 votes

That must be why Lux is so weak right now huh

Rock MD27 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YRrjLB2v,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-02-15T02:55:36.180+0000)

That must be why Lux is so weak right now huh

READ THE DAMNED WALL OF TEXT. THE FIRST LINE IS LITERALLY "OUTSIDE OF LUX."

AS IN, YA KNOW, EXCLUDING HER.

IN CASE YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED BUD ONE CHAMPION DOESN'T MAKE AN ENTIRE CLASS.

SnugglePuggle9416 votes

Calm down. Jelly Mac is a Zed lover through and through. I've been watching him on all the Zed posts, he talks like that to everyone.

RyzeRework1 votes

Plus Viktor zilean aniva brand swain wait a second....

Rock MD3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godlike Jungle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YRrjLB2v,comment-id=001f,timestamp=2016-02-15T16:46:54.231+0000)

Plus Viktor zilean aniva brand swain wait a second....

You've seen how poorly Viktor is performing in LCS, right?

He's worse in solo queue.

Brand isn't particularly strong and the only place he really sees use anymore is support.

Swain is flat out shit.

Anivia is meh.

Zilean is good because he has multiple stupidly powerful, unique mechanics.

Two of which being, of course, anti-burst and anti-assassination.

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