Why is everyone mad about Riot adding armor pen itemization?

IllllllIIIIlllll·Feb 19, 2016·8 votes·1,008 views

I've seen threads complaining about new Armor Pen itemization from , but AP has had for years. Furthermore, magic pen is much more impactful than armor pen because most champions gain armor per level but not MR per level. For AD, you're never going to be doing true damage, even to squishies, but for AP, + is pretty much true damage towards anyone that doesn't build a magic resist item.

Note, I'm not saying AP itemization is better than AD itemization and whatnot, especially since AD has options like , but I think complaining about the armor pen itemization AD has is a bad argument.

20 Comments

KhâmulFeb 19, 20164 votes

AP: item 3001 item 3151 item 3135 item 3020 item 3091 AD: item 3142 item 3071 item 3156 item 3147 item 3036 (didn't forget the other one,but it's the same bonus so it counts as one item)

The main difference between AP and AD itemisation ? Mainly the fact that after the AD items rework, they put like 10000 effects on each. You'll often see an assassin with all of these items, but rarely a mage with all of these(and never with item 3091 ). Plus you have less effects on them I'm against people saying that mages need a item 3140 but AP itemisation needs some rework

YumaS2AstralFeb 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

AP: AD: (didn't forget the other one,but it's the same bonus so it counts as one item)

The main difference between AP and AD itemisation ? Mainly the fact that after the AD items rework, they put like 10000 effects on each. You'll often see an assassin with all of these items, but rarely a mage with all of these(and never with ). Plus you have less effects on them I'm against people saying that mages need a but AP itemisation needs some rework

item 3091 is not an AP item. It is also not an AD item. It is an on-hit item meant to be built by auto-attack reliant champions that do a lot of magic damage, whether they are AP or AD.

KhâmulFeb 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

is not an AP item. It is also not an AD item. It is an on-hit item meant to be built by auto-attack reliant champions that do a lot of magic damage, whether they are AP or AD.

on hit item but benefit for Ap (a tank can reduces someone's mr, so mages do more damages on him)

Dominick DestineFeb 19, 20163 votes

Flat armor pen is complemented heavily by percentage armor pen.

Percentage armor pen has become extremely prevalent , to the point where a tank having 350 armor late game can be reduced to being effectively hit as if he had 80ish armor (Black Cleaver/Lord Dominik's Regards/Ghostblade/Maw of Malmortius). That is some epic bullshit right there.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 19, 20161 votes

Void Staff is total pen, and LW isn't though.

Percentage armor pen has become extremely prevalent , to the point where a tank having 350 armor late game can be reduced to being effectively hit as if he had 80ish armor (Black Cleaver/Lord Dominik's Regards/Ghostblade/Maw of Malmortius). That is some epic bullshit right there.

So if he built 4 armor pen items he's effective against tanks? Seems fucking intended to me when he's giving up crit/AS/lifesteal/movement speed/AD for this build, and damage has to be outpace tanks, or we end up in a super tank meta where games stall out forever because tanks would be unkillable behemoths. Also it's pretty rare for Black Cleaver + Lord Dominik's Regards to actually be worth getting together

Let me try your logic though! Magic pen has become extremely prevalent , to the point where a tank having 190 mr late game can be reduced to being effectively hit as if he had 50 mr ( item 3001 item 3151 item 3020 item 3135 item 3091 ). That is some epic bullshit right there.

Dominick DestineFeb 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kX3R9Anp,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-02-19T22:14:14.935+0000)

Void Staff is total pen, and LW isn't though.

45% vs 35%.

Also Lord Dominik's Regards has 15% bonus damage to targets with higher HP, arguably offsetting/overcoming Void Staff's benefit.

So if he built 4 armor pen items he's effective against tanks? Seems fucking intended to me

And the magic resist equivalent(s) to reducing 350 MR to 80ish MR? oh yeah, there is none.

MR has actually been buffed in this season ( item 3065 ex: 70 MR now)

Phoenix Kotori Feb 19, 20161 votes

And the magic resist equivalent(s) to reducing 350 MR to 80ish MR? oh yeah, there is none.

Champions can have 90-100 armor @18 base, while only 54 MR @18. So to get 350 MR you'd have build MR in 5/6 slot item 3111 item 3065 item 3512 item 3102 item 3026 . While Armor takes item 3110 item 3075 item 3143 just 3 to hit 350 armor.

So of course pens work different.

Dominick DestineFeb 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kX3R9Anp,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-19T22:42:23.534+0000)

Champions can have 90-100 armor @18 base, while only 54 MR @18.

Sure, I will concede that point.

So let's subtract 46 MR and take into account the fact that MR is slightly harder to get, let's make it 270 MR down to 80ish MR as opposed to 350 armor down to 80ish armor.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 19, 20161 votes

item 3001 item 3151 item 3020 item 3135 item 3091 with standard mpen reds & Piercing Thoughts pulls 270 mr down to 80.39 mr.

Dominick DestineFeb 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kX3R9Anp,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-19T22:52:53.174+0000)

Is not an AP item.

If you remove the AD and cooldown reduction on item 3071 , would it still be viable on AD characters?

Phoenix Kotori Feb 20, 20162 votes

And cleaver isn't an ADC item it doesn't have Crit, AS, or lifesteal, it's extremely rare for adc to buy, and then for non-adc item 3036 is rarely used.

WalkingInACircleFeb 19, 20163 votes

There are few armor items that don't involve spending 3k gold on pure defense. Zhonya's is the only example and its stats are atrocious for its cost. Insert blathering about its active.

I suppose frozen gauntlet is also an example. Wonder why blue ez is so popular lately.

MR itemization on the other hand is the best itemization in the game.

Oh, and the ap items with mpen are low ap. The ad items are not.

Sneakyy XDFeb 19, 20163 votes

AD champions are already dominating. Why are we giving them more tools to dominate even harder?

PennsFeb 19, 20162 votes

Because most people here are Vel Koz mains :^)

Hayaishi2Feb 19, 20162 votes

Because they want to build full armor faceroll games with 0 skill, when Riot is clearly against that playstyle.

YuGiHoFeb 19, 20162 votes

Because ad still has auttos something ap champs that dont build nashors will never have. Ad gets 40 armor pen on something that is always available and has a lower cooldown than almost ever skill in the game

DarkwindFeb 19, 20161 votes

I don't care (that much) about the flat pen. 20 on Ghostblade seems a little high, but I'm not objecting to the presence of multiple flat pen options.

I don't like combo shred. Cleaver+LW really shouldn't be a thing. Cleaver+LW+Flat pen is stupid.

Also, I don't like where they put the flat pen. Giving flat pen to hexdrinker is just ridiculous for the price

KoggyStyleFeb 20, 20161 votes

full apen MF melts with ult js

Titanium70Feb 19, 20161 votes

Well let's keep this short:

Mage Itemization exists for ages - that's why every single Mage is balanced around beeing able to build those by default.
M.Pen on Mages is (besides Boots [lookijng at 1.]) is very situational. Abyssal is only worth if both Teams have a decent amount of AP DMG. Liandry is only worth on certain Champions. Maw is a rush Item on most lanes. Additianlly everyone using basic attacks can buy it every time. Ghost and Dusk Blade are linked with Champs as well, but can build into every situation as well.

We could talk about things like Slot-Efficiency and Sub-Items as well... but let's leave it here. ^^