why has kayle not been treated like old yorick and poppy?

Big Lincoln·Jul 31, 2017·120 votes·4,560 views

ik it's because she has a skin coming up and you gotta rake that dosh, but this champ is one of the worst fucking designs in the game

nonexistent counterplay, THE prime example of a stat-check champion goes top and gets to bypass """weak""" laning entirely in the majority of matchups (54% winrate top btw) hyper-scaling lane bully that will outscale everyone with just 2 items and to top it off her invuln ult is on a laughably low cooldown and doesn't cost mana

after you pull a profit from her skin, put this atrocity in the dirt where she belongs

180 Comments

RalanrJul 31, 201734 votes

Asking the real questions.

Big LincolnJul 31, 201738 votes

you dont even know how mad I am right now sitting through 27 minutes of Kayle pressing E and permapushing while I can't do anything to force her out of lane or win an all-in

this whore is showing up in my games more and more and it's making me pissed

DivewingJul 31, 201742 votes

There are picks that exist in this game, like Kayle and Jayce, where when they are out of meta you keep your mouth shut so hopefully everyone forgets how broken they are and don't pick them.

Then they return to the meta and make you want to drink barbed-wire

Best princess EUAug 1, 20174 votes

how i feel as a mage main with Heimerdinger

AirKingNeoAug 1, 201710 votes

Except Jayce is actually broken.

DivewingAug 1, 20173 votes

... that was my point... >_>

It Hertz When IPAug 1, 20173 votes

Wouldn't you EAT barbed wire? It's not a liquid.

General Esdeath Aug 1, 20176 votes

Fury so hot you can melt it

Big LincolnAug 1, 201711 votes

Tryndamere

DivewingAug 1, 20174 votes

Chewing makes it easier.

Besides, I swallow like a good boy

kasfasAug 1, 201722 votes

Nope, you become so angry that the quantum state of all matter around your body becomes entangled, becoming solid, liquid, gas, and plasma simultaneously. And since the gasses instantly compress on your solidified form, they condense into a drinkable substance.

Ergo, you drink barbed wire.

https://giphy.com/gifs/neil-degrasse-tyson-VVgRNcBKp64NO?utm_source=media-link&utm_medium=landing&utm_campaign=Media%20Links&utm_term=

IcyPepperAug 1, 20179 votes

why does this make so much sense

it's the gif, isn't it

TheSingularityAug 1, 20173 votes

Pick yorick

KONO RUBICK DAJul 31, 201729 votes

primary thing that i hate in league

d2/d1 kayle players thinking they're good at the game because they can rightclick and press R once a while

SithesisLordAug 1, 20175 votes

Dawidsonek is Challenger and plays Kayle.

Lest we forget, high elo Kayle mains/OTPs didn´t get there because Kayle is broken and freelo.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 1, 20172 votes

i mean yeah they're good at the game it just makes me salty to see kayle players in high elo

almost everyone else are having hardtime with their mechanics, skillshots, ect.. and kayle is just sitting here rightclicking and using ult and point and click slow/heal and this is what makes me salty

SithesisLordAug 1, 201715 votes

That´s the thing.

Simpler champions mean the players don´t have to focus on microplay, on getting every single animation cancelling right and all that jazz.

They can just redirect the time and effort into macro play.

People meme LS for putting Annie as a high tier pick, but in the end, he's right.

Another thing i´d like to put is that Kayle isn´t exactly as braindead as everyone makes her look. Ult timing, kiting, knowing when to use E to permapush and when to risk farming with it off to freeze, etc are all part of the minutiae of playing Kayle efficiently that people tend to forget.

VolphiAug 1, 20177 votes

[deleted]

KONO RUBICK DAAug 1, 20174 votes

depends on which adc if the adc is outdated like vayne then yeah, same thing

if the adc is Caitlyn and dude manages to outplay me so hard with trap animation cancelling and aiming Q then i respect him same with Draven Q mechanics

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 1, 20176 votes

I agree exept for Draven.

Malicious MetalAug 1, 201726 votes

Damn, and here I thought I'd drop Morde when I hit D1 and become a Kayle main...

Skins ProjectAug 1, 20174 votes

SithesisLordAug 1, 201726 votes

nonexistent counterplay

Engage on her when her E is down. Every single Kayle under the sun hates to fight with E down because they lose range.

You have around 4 to 7 seconds, depending on her rune/mastery setup.

goes top and gets to bypass """weak""" laning entirely in the majority of matchups (54% winrate top btw)

She has a weak laning. She perma pushes. She's extremely mana hungry while simultaneously building zero mana items safe for a situational Lichbane.

hyper-scaling lane bully that will outscale everyone with just 2 items

Lane bully? Lmao, yeah, sure buddy. Put her on the same spot as Renekton, Riven, Pantheon and the likes. That´s totally accurate.

And she only outscales with 3 to 4 items. Disregarding boots.

Just Nashor's and Rageblade won´t cut it for nearly all her matchups, good or bad.

and to top it off her invuln ult is on a laughably low cooldown and doesn't cost mana

It´s almost as if the rest of her kit costs too much mana and she builds CDR and has CDR on runes.

after you pull a profit from her skin, put this atrocity in the dirt where she belongs

She actually doesn´t belong there though. Her winrate is high because mains/OTPs and boosters abusing the Kayle/Yi strat are inflating her winrate considerably.

And she doesn´t need the old Yorick/qold Poppy treatment because she isn´t nearly as unhealthy.

The bottom line is, shut her down early. Let her get 4 items or stall the game enough and she WILL win. Being one of the few late game queens is kinda her thing.

VolphiAug 1, 201715 votes

[deleted]

SithesisLordAug 1, 20175 votes

It helps when you´ve been maining her for one and a half season.

https://br.op.gg/summoner/userName=Mikayle+Jordan

EvilMerodachAug 1, 201718 votes

"because she has a skin coming up"

Yes. In the literal years since Kayle has had any major change to her kit, they've been leaving her alone because they want to sell that skin that probably wasn't even planned.

I mean she's gained 5AD and 0.5MR per level since patch 5.16. https://lol.gamepedia.com/Kayle_-_The_Judicator#Patch_History Totally just to sell that skin.

Can't possibly have anything to do with current meta.

Continue the Riot witch hunting.

Upvoting posts like this are why no one takes anything gameplay says seriously.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPoJMcVUwAAf03B.jpg

AirKingNeoAug 1, 20171 votes

She lost 5 AD and gained 0.5 MR per level like every other champion did during the assassin update who didn't have MR per level.

EvilMerodachAug 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

She lost 5 AD and gained 0.5 MR per level like every other champion did during the assassin update who didn't have MR per level.

Yeah, forgot to point that part out. Wasn't really even a change specific to her.

Just pointing out that in no way, shape, or form, did they 'intentionally leave her OP just to sell a skin.'

She just hasn't been touched in years.

If she's been OP, it's been for 2+ years, why are people suddenly mad about it just because she's also getting a skin?

Or, if she's OP now, and she wasn't OP before, then it has nothing to do with Kayle herself. It's either itemization, or meta changes having the side-effect of making her strong. Which, maybe, just maybe, those should be looked at before we give her the 'old yorick/poppy' treatment, just for being strong atm.

SkorchJul 31, 201716 votes

"ik it's because she has a skin coming up and you gotta rake that dosh"

I know people say Riot balances for skins but really? Kayle?

I wasnt aware that they were preparing Kayle for this skin since 5.13, weird since she got a (-5 AD) Nerf in 5.16. And that was the last time she had BALANCE changes.

Look im not saying Kayle isnt bullshit. She is by far my least favorite champion in the game and a must ban when im not banning fotm. But i mean REALLY?

Morgy MorgyJul 31, 201712 votes

better than pantheon tho am i right

YoungFarmerAug 1, 20174 votes

{quoted}

better than pantheon tho am i right

Atleast you know panths going to become less useful as time progresses.

Malicious MetalAug 1, 201710 votes

Because she's my waifu.

SithesisLordAug 1, 20178 votes

I thought Morde was your waifu.

:^)

Malicious MetalAug 1, 201723 votes

The entirety of Pentakill are my waifus.

KrinuAug 1, 20172 votes

I can get behind this.

IcyPepperAug 1, 20173 votes

I can get behind them ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

NiceTryViAug 1, 20174 votes

You're cheating on Sona, the OG Pentakill Waifu?

ValyrianBladeAug 1, 20178 votes

After Vladimir , Kayle is probably my favourite top lane matchup...

As JarvanIV , I can easily beat most Kayle's in lane. I've also lane swapped for a melee top laner who was afraid of her, and crushed Kayle's as Ahri .

Specific to the melee matchups though (i.e. JarvanIV ): Kayle is very immobile and auto-pushes the wave with her E. Use whatever ranged ability you have to farm while her E is active, and take as many creeps as you can while her E is on cool down. Her E doesn't have 100% uptime or anywhere close to it during laning phase. She needs something like 35% or 37.5% CDR to keep it on. Farming in this way should keep you relatively even in farm while not getting poked down, and Kayle will be pushed towards your tower. That's an excellent recipe for your jungler to gank. At your tower? Check. Immobile champion? Check. Squishy champion? Check. Lacks burst to one-shot jungler or laner? Check. Literally any time between levels 2 and 5 you should be able to get a free kill on her (even if she tries to flash). Bringing any CC to the fight (which if you're a melee top you should have some CC) makes it insanely easy to kill her with a gank (and she has no choice but to extend).

In the mid game, pressure your lane with your lead. You can either take towers for free if she tries to group, or push waves in to her tower then roam mid yourself / invade the enemy jungle's buff on top side. Try to CC whoever she ults. DON'T burst the same target your team is bursting as they'll likely get ult'd - Kayle succeeds when she negates a large amount of damage (eats a lot of cool downs) with her ultimate.

Late game you should either outscale her for team fights or split push. 3 seconds of allied invulnerability shouldn't compare to your tankiness and CC if you're something like Maokai. She can't match your mobility and can't 1v1 you if you're someone like Fiora or Riven. Know where you beat her and force her to play to your strengths. Use her lack of mobility to try to execute picks. If behind, it's often beneficial to let the ENEMY team blow their CDs on the engage and you should have the edge in the ensuing fight.

J4 specifically benefits from keeping her trapped in his ultimate when she ults.

zero356Aug 1, 20177 votes

Here, have this https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/yghB24Gs-now-urgot-and-eve-will-get-their-long-awaited-vgus-can-we-have-more-info-about-other-candidates She's on the list Granted, it's a long list that takes time to go through But she's on it

Chembaron YamadaAug 1, 20172 votes

What I don't understand: Many champions have been under skin embargo (Yorick, Urgot, Swain....), because they were on the list for the upcoming VGUs.

And then there is Kayle.... being on that list as well, but they still give her a new Pentakill skin. Why? Why does Kayle get this special treatment, while champs who were much more in need of a new skin were not allowed to get one, because it would be more work in their VGU?

EvilMerodachAug 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

What I don't understand: Many champions have been under skin embargo (Yorick, Urgot, Swain....), because they were on the list for the upcoming VGUs.

And then there is Kayle.... being on that list as well, but they still give her a new Pentakill skin. Why? Why does Kayle get this special treatment, while champs who were much more in need of a new skin were not allowed to get one, because it would be more work in their VGU?

Because Kayle doesn't look that bad visually, and she did get a VU sometime in the past...thought that's been a while.

Urgot was pizzafeet tier visually. It's hard to make a skin look good with pizzafeet. So they knew they had to fully remake his entire look for him to be 'ok.'

Kayle still looks halfway decent, so even if they do eventually do a 'full' VGU for her, they will likely not do anything too drastic to her visual side, just modernize it. So they'd just have to modernize her skins with it.

For Urgot, if they made a skin pre-update, they'd just have to turn around and delete that skin completely and replace it with a new skin, because of how drastic it was required to change him to get him modernized.

Morgana, well, she's kinda getting pretty close to pizzafeet tier, so, not sure on that one. Though, honestly, she has aged pretty well considering she's basically still Beta material. She really doesn't look that bad in game. And really her kit isn't the worst in the world either. Likely they'll update her before she really needs an update simply because of the Lore side of things. And probably won't be Sion/Poppy/Urgot tier update, cause she does still have a 'place' in modern League.

Chembaron YamadaAug 1, 20172 votes

This implies that the rework team already knows in which direction they are going with Kayle.

You mentioned him, so I will keep him as an example: Urgot They already stated that it depends if they come up with a cool idea for the champion to do the VGU. For Urgot, that cool idea were the shotgunknees. The designer was making up that idea and kept Urgots 4 legs.

After some testing, he found out that 4 legs don't cut it. He made 6 legs and it turned out well. That meant that they had to redesign Urgot with 6 legs, to reflect his new gameplay now.

If Kayle isn't scheduled for a rework yet, chances are that they didn't find a gameplay hook for her. So, if that happens, what guarantees that this gameplay update won't make it necessary to rework this new Pentakill skin as well?

For me it feels like they just took the risk of having to rework this skin as well with her VGU, while they were not willing to take that risk for champions which were starving for skins alot more.....

Sexy Jack RabbitJul 31, 20175 votes

Non-existent counterplay?

You mean like diving on her with ult down and killing her?

Big LincolnJul 31, 201750 votes

"kill them" is not sufficient counterplay

General Esdeath Aug 1, 201716 votes

"Just ban her xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD"

Sexy Jack RabbitAug 1, 20171 votes

Except that her counterplay is the exact same as any ranged hyper carry. Kog, Vayne, Jinx, etc. They all use the same methods to deal with them.

The only difference is that you'll need to bait out Kayle's ulti first which is no different from Tryn or Kindred.

Over InnsmouthAug 1, 201716 votes

Except that Trynd is melee and Kindred also prevents you from dying, so yeah, pretty big difference.

Except that her counterplay is the exact same as any ranged hyper carry.

...Dodging the right clicks?

KrinuAug 1, 20174 votes

I play a lot of Kayle.

She's strong against champions with telegraphed burst and weak engage. She's weak against crowd control (specifically, anything that locks her down for the duration of her ult) and burst that doesn't require setup.

This makes her a good (many would say overpowered) pick against many assassins and juggernauts. She's weaker against Vanguards and ADCs.

In a lot of ways, she's like Yi - if you don't lock her down, she will wreck your face in the late game. Yi does it by being untargetable and unslowable, Kayle does it by just getting three seconds of "I get to murder you now" time.

NatakeAug 1, 20174 votes

I mean, at least she's confirmed for a joint rework with Morgana, right?

DarkRitualAug 1, 20173 votes

Riot: "We don't release skins for champions that really need an update, like Swain." Also Riot: "Kayle and Morgana could really use an update, but here's a Kayle skin and your yearly Morgana skin should be coming soon."