Does Yasuo really need double crit?

Shahamut·May 21, 2017·71 votes·3,985 views

If frozen/force and bruiser builds work on him, why not just drop the double crit and make him choose between squishy crit carry and melee duelist?

163 Comments

ZephyrDrakeMay 21, 201733 votes

because he is meant to be a squishy melee character that makes use of his kit to survive instead of items. Riot doesn't want his bruiser build to be the way to build him and if you were to remove the double crit then no one would bother building anything but the bruiser build

ShahamutMay 21, 20174 votes

The problem is, as a melee dps (aka not burst) he needs to build some survivability unless he is insanely ahead. Full damage melee builds have always been the definition of feast or famine.

Yes, Yasuo does have some decent outplay potential in his kit, but the amount of point and click c.c. makes that nearly irrelevant imho.

ZephyrDrakeMay 21, 201714 votes

{quoted}

The problem is, as a melee dps (aka not burst) he needs to build some survivability unless he is insanely ahead. Full damage melee builds have always been the definition of feast or famine.

Yes, Yasuo does have some decent outplay potential in his kit, but the amount of point and click c.c. makes that nearly irrelevant imho.

doesn't matter what the problem is, the intended build is for him to build squishy, that is why his kit has a shield and that is why he is so mobile. It's also why Riven is so mobile and has a shield attached to her kit. These are champions that are rewarded for building damage in some way, shape or form. Him building tanky is fine and all but if that ever becomes THE go to build then he will get a nerf that is targeted at those types of build.

ShahamutMay 21, 20172 votes

Riven almost always builds bruiser, rushing clever, and often taking titanic over ravenous. Unless she is super fed/snowballing.

ZephyrDrakeMay 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Riven almost always builds bruiser, rushing clever, and often taking titanic over ravenous. Unless she is super fed/snowballing.

what she builds has little to do, Cleaver has only recently been given a buff to how much HP it gives actually making it a bruiser item but since it gives her EVERYTHING she wants she will still build it. It would be like saying people who build item 3078 are bruisers if it ever got a buff into how much HP it gives and most people still build item 3074 over item 3748 on Riven so no idea what you are even saying

ShahamutMay 21, 20172 votes

I'm a top main, maybe it's just luck of the draw, but I've seen quite a few Rivens build it:-/

ShahamutMay 21, 20173 votes

Point being, good Riven players don't build full damage. They usually have at least 1, sometimes 2, defensive items. Because they are melee. And need it

TEA Nietzsche May 21, 20172 votes

Although you got to keep in mind that the BC changes hit Riven really badly - Riven doesn't build it for the tank stats, she builds it for the CDR/ARshred. Titanic Hydra is viable although I personally hate it, basically every Riven builds GA now.

ShahamutMay 21, 20173 votes

GA was pretty common before as well if I'm not mistaken

TEA Nietzsche May 21, 20173 votes

Absolutely - but sometimes people wouldn't take it cuz of Mercurial/whatever, but generally BC/GA are the only tanky must-have items. The Titanic + maybe steraks build is rather rare, although viable. I am not arguing or anything, just wanted to help out ^^

BunnymapMay 21, 20171 votes

Take away double crit, suddenly yasuo builds tanky bruiser which is either oppressive and terrible for the game health, or is nerfed into the ground and made useless

ShahamutMay 21, 2017

Why is his bruiser build oppressive/bad for game health? If it's that bad, why isn't it played more than his full damage builds?

The question is, does he need double crit to still be a good/useful champion in light of bruiser builds.

Yaśuo MainMay 23, 20171 votes

Why is his bruiser build oppressive/bad for game health?

Bruiser Shaco

Bruiser Ekko

These are justified now?

TakazakiMay 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kKOWuI6k,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-23T01:52:29.113+0000)

Bruiser Shaco

Bruiser Ekko

These are justified now?

you forgot tank/bruiser fizz

and talon

and zed

and rengar

its almost like if riot makes building defense more attractive then offence then people will buy that

ABlueQuakerMay 21, 20174 votes

The issue is that he's a melee carry. Melee carries are just terrible design in the modern game. Yasuo is such a problem because he was Riot's last attempt at making a competitively viable Melee Carry before they gave up and came to the conclusion that the closest thing to a melee carry that can exist and be somewhat healthy are bruisers like Aatrox Jax Irelia or assassins like Zed Talon . I feel like Riot needs to look at Yasuo, Yi and Tryndamere and decide whether they want them to be mid lase assassins or top/jungle bruisers because melee carries aren't healthy and are a nightmare to balance.

AnidanMay 21, 20171 votes

I don't know why they needed to try to make their own squishy melee carries to realize it doesn't work when DotA has shown that if you're going to make a melee carry then they're going to need to be bulky or really slippery. Melee carries don't get the luxury of attacking from a safer range, so they have to take a hit and that durability can't just intend to come from their kit, like they wanted for their melee ADCs. Bruisers are how you make a melee carry that isn't an assassin.

KONO RUBICK DAMay 22, 20172 votes

dota has turn rate dota has items giving less benefits to ranged carries diffusal used to not work on ranged champs, same for vladimir offering manta gives less damage on illusions to ranged champions eye of skadi, heaven's hellbard

and the list goes on

in league, due to the lack of balance between melee and ranged, a melee carry needs MORE tools like yasuo/fiora/gp/yi to work

jorrgiMay 22, 20171 votes

Melee carries can be relevant. Problem is lol has no base turning point like Dota does and THAT is waht makes melee carries awful. In doto tehy are allright.

FalconPawwwwnchMay 21, 20175 votes

Except with phantom dancer he gets to be both a melee carry and not squishy

Stars ShaperMay 21, 201713 votes

His double crit passive is nothing more than a steroid the same way Fiora and Tryndamere get.

ShahamutMay 21, 20173 votes

My point is, though, that he apparently doesn't need it to be successful. Isn't that the definition of superfluous/unneeded power? I'm convinced he would still be equally strong without it, and it would actually trim down power off the bruiser build as well, which usually includes a phantom dancer.

KONO RUBICK DAMay 21, 20177 votes

{quoted}

My point is, though, that he apparently doesn't need it to be successful.

ShahamutMay 21, 20173 votes

He has had good success with bruiser builds. Was actually the only popular build in LCS.

He apparently doesn't NEED his crit passive to succeed in the game.

KONO RUBICK DAMay 21, 20175 votes

yasuo bruiser build is gone since a long time LOL

where were you when they nuked his attack speed/lvl to force him to build attack speed, and made his armor pen working only on crit?

he NEEDS his crit to do damage now, yasuo won't do anything without crit against tanks except if he buy mortal reminder that makes him squishy CDR is also WASTED AF because his Q is reduced by attack speed, not by cdr, his E also doesn't work with it

yasuo has 2 steroids as a carry his crit WHICH NEEDS HIM TO BUY CRIT IN THE FIRST PLACE, unlike trynd that gets crit at lvl 1 without buying anything and his ult against tanks

there is no reason to remove his crit passive, especially when someone says he doesn't need it MasterYi doesn't need true damage steroid, doesn't need ult Fiora doesn't need true damage, doesn't need crit steroid and AA reset

ShahamutMay 21, 20171 votes

Admittedly I did forget about the armor pen only on crit change to his ult. Would be the only compensation needed then. Currently, however, he would still have a 60% crit chance with just phantom dancer.

As I mentioned in the post above. I doubt the build is dead. Just isn't Broken anymore which is why I think it is no longer seen in the LCS.

KONO RUBICK DAMay 22, 20172 votes

the build is fcking terrible period

it doesn't fullfie the job of a melee carry if you remove crit passive he will need damage buff to be a melee carry, then he will build bruiser and become imbalanced

"don't buff his damage" then there will be no fcking point in picking yasuo over a real bruiser

SorryForYourLossMay 22, 20171 votes

uh,, having to build crit to use your lethality? That seems less like a punishment and more like a steroid as well. Especially when crit damage is as high as it is. AtkSpeed, Lethality, Crit. Yasuo is broken for the same reason warwick is. He just gets too much. Too much what? Too much everything. Most champions have a couple things they excel at. Dueling, split pushing, tanking, intitiating/peeling, poking, etcc. Warwick has bonus movement speed, plus bonus attack speed scaling upward against enemies with lower health. Thats insane to me. Not to mention his INSANE lifesteal on his ult and his Q and his autos.

Now back to Yasuo. he gets 2x the scaling on his crits. 50%=100%. Farming for him is simple, E, AA, Q. Repeat as needed. His shield? Uhm...okay. He is low risk, high reward.

He isnt as bad as ahri, but hes one of those "how the fuck do we fix this?" champions.

Sahn UzalMay 21, 20179 votes

Bruiser Yasuo? When he would build PD into Mallet? Or PD into Trinity Force back when it still gave crit?

hm?

EndlessSorcererMay 21, 20176 votes

I think they may be referring to the period of time in which Yasuo built Trinity Force + Frozen Mallet (when Trinity Force didn't provide crit).

It was a bit more recent and resulted in his ultimate only providing armor penetration on critical strikes.

I'm not sure if it was used in competitive though.

RalanrMay 21, 20172 votes

Not sure why anyone would want that build back. It has no weaknesses.

EndlessSorcererMay 21, 20176 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/187/824/media_http26mediatumb_uafbm.jpg.scaled500.jpg?1318992465

Stars ShaperMay 21, 20171 votes

If he self gimps for an unintended build why do you want to nerf his supposed one?

Bruiser Yasuo is just another symptom of the Tank Ekko-Fizz syndrome, it's far less toxic in my opinion. Yet is an unintended build and shouldn't be considered for balancing purpose and should be made rather unwanted for Yasuo.

ShahamutMay 21, 20171 votes

I'm just not sure how you would make it unwanted. Yasuo is melee, his kit will bring him forward into fights and rarely back out of them. He can do some back and forth in lane with minions, but that's it. His kit makes me think bruiser would be better for him.

Stars ShaperMay 21, 20171 votes

If they found a way for Ekko and Fizz they'll find for Yasuo too.

Also, I'm not saying that he shouldn't be tanky at all, a more tanky build is welcome if it doesn't make him just better.

ShahamutMay 21, 20171 votes

I'm sure they will... I just wonder if it would be better for Yasuo if they removed double crit and balanced him around the other power in his kit.

Stars ShaperMay 21, 20173 votes

They will never do it, it's the main thematic of his character: crit and mobility.

FluffySoxOfDoomMay 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kKOWuI6k,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-21T12:09:50.628+0000)

His double crit passive is nothing more than a steroid the same way Fiora and Tryndamere get.

Um, I dont think Fiora should fall under that category

Stars ShaperMay 21, 20171 votes

That's the subclass category given by Riot: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Skirmishers

Fiora
Riven
Yasuo
Tryndamere
Master Yi
Jax
Ekko

All have tools for mobility, a dedicated protection window and steroids to boost their damage.

FluffySoxOfDoomMay 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kKOWuI6k,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2017-05-21T23:05:43.425+0000)

That's the subclass category given by Riot: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Skirmishers

Fiora

Riven

Yasuo

Tryndamere

Master Yi

Jax

Ekko

All have tools for mobility, a dedicated protection window and steroids to boost their damage.

I thought you were talking about Fiora's crit as a steroid like Yas' lol..

Stars ShaperMay 21, 20172 votes

Didn't mean to say that xD

I included another crit reliant guy and some1 with an AD steroid to give 2 solid examples.

Sraeg2013May 21, 201710 votes

Because removing crit reliance would turn him into a full blown bruiser nobody wants to deal with?

Use your head, will ya?

SpecterVonBarenMay 22, 20176 votes

This assumes that anyone likes dealing with either iteration of Yasuo.

Sraeg2013May 22, 20173 votes

Critsuo is like a cold. Tanksuo is like AIDS.

Nobody likes either, but having one is definitely much better than having the other.

DJMason88May 21, 20177 votes

His crit balances him. Sure, hes still strong, but we need to keep his crit or else he has even more reason to go the tank build.

ShahamutMay 21, 20172 votes

I'm not saying he isn't balanced. I'm just curious about how he would be without it, since it seems to me he could do well as a bruiser.

AninLegions777May 21, 20174 votes

Because tank Yasuo is worse than Crit Yasuo.

KhadaverMay 21, 20172 votes

He will be forced to go crit and do insane dmg but be squishy or go tank and do less dmg but be a better frontline

BârdMay 21, 20176 votes

That's already how it is. Removing double crit would not make it more so.

Removing double crit makes crit Yasuo a terrible build.

Look at the crit items in the game.

item 3031 item 3508 item 3046 item 3094 item 3085 item 3087

Out of these, only three are good on Yasuo.

Not only would his current two item power spike be delayed to a four item power spike, it would be much weaker because he would have to compromise his build.

Oh, and once he has it, he has four complete items and boots.

He has one item slot left to fill any and all situational needs.

Oh, and did I mention that his stats are garbage at this point?

He only has an IE (and possibly an ER) to make his crits actually do damage.

Yeah, crit Yas would go straight down the drain. Bruiser Yas would become the only viable playstyle, which is not something anybody wants to see.

AninLegions777May 22, 20171 votes

Dude, I just clocked that it would be good to remove the passive. Imagine 80% Crit Yasuo. But now there's no reduced damage for crit on his Autoattacks and Q meaning that he deals full damage. So basically, you deal 25% more damage on your crits. Insane.

Yaśuo MainMay 23, 20171 votes

Not insane once you realize every single champion with the right build can do the same amount of damage.