The Precedent has been set...

Shahamut··88 votes·4,781 views

So, Nunu support/smite was (according to what I read by RIOT) banned NOT for his pick, and NOT for his strategy, but the fact that enough people said it had a negative impact on their experience...

This is a very large can of worms that RIOT has opened, and there are a plethora of reasons why. I am going to give some thoughts on at least what I feel is the primary reason and then give a hypothetical scenario to attempt to show the flaw.

Defining a negative game experience:

This is far and above the biggest issue with the ban handed down. How do you define what is a ban-able behavior in this category? There are a TON of things that can make someone's game experience a negative one:

1- Foul language toward myself or other players (name calling, belittling, racism, etc.) 2- Intentional Feeding 3- Death threats or wishes (I do put these in a whole different category than 1. Just my feelings on it) 4- People trying new stuff in ranked games 5- Players that refuse to communicate in the lobby during champ select 6- Players that pick their champs with no regard to what has already been picked. 7- Going off meta 8- Picking Teemo

Im sure there are more but you get the picture.

Some of these are easily definable as punishable offenses, some could even be argued for instant ban. But the precedent that RIOT has set with this ban is that if you play anything that (whether it is meta or not, regardless of your intentions to win) that enough people feel "ruins their game experience", than you have committed a ban-able offense.

Imagine this scenario: (this is from experience actually)

Its champ select, your team is talking (well 3 of you are) and you, the top laner, along with the support, are convinced to play tanks, and protect the carries for the win. You, the adc and the support are now on the same train of thought. The Jungler joins the conversation saying he is going to pick Graves for early aggression and damage since we have 2 tanks already. Mid is last to pick and has said nothing this whole time. He shows Zed in his champ window. Everyone on the team is saying things like, "Hey, we really need some magic damage, do you have like a ziggs or Xerath? Or if you really want assassin do you have Ahri?" etc. Mid says nothing, and picks Zed.

Now, regardless of how this game goes, this Zed player, (maybe he's a one trick? Maybe he just wanted to play Zed? Doesn't matter) even though he is not intentionally trying to throw the game, even though he has said nothing negative, even if he communicates with pings and uses wards, regardless of whether or not we win or lose, has created a "negative game experience" for the other 4 players on his team who were trying to work together to build a winning comp.

This, of course, is a rare BEST case scenario. This exact same thing could happen even if NO ONE was communicating in lobby during champ select, and the same 4 people would all be upset with the Zed pick because now they have no Magic Damage and the enemy has an EZ time building against us if we don't snowball in 15 min.

Because of what has transpired, not only can the Zed get reported by the other players, but now he can even be banned. Remember, its not about what champion you pick for what role, cuz that would be a meta thing, which RIOT has stated is not ban-able. But because he created a negative experience for the other players on his team, he can be banned assuming this gets reported more than 2 or 3 times.

Growing up, I was always taught that when you disagreed with someone, you still needed to be respectful. It didn't matter if they were right or wrong, you still showed some respect. In league, we are told by RIOT that we have to communicate, but there is a mute button if you don't like what people are saying.(also, what if you are chat banned? just a thought). We are encouraged to "try new things" and "play what you want" and not to let ourselves be bullied by other players and that the "meta" isn't something to be enforced.

But RIOT, this decision, even if you do not INTEND it, does exactly the opposite of "not enforcing meta". Because going off meta can create uncertain feelings in other players that may cause their game experience to be "negative". You have set a precedent now that will have players asking for bans against anyone who consistently plays off meta champs and strats, and have, albeit UNINTENTIONALLY, told every off meta player that they are now subject to being enslaved to the "meta" when playing the game.

I hope you understand that I have no hard feelings toward you as a company. I love this game, and I think you guys are trying REALLY hard to do what you think is right, but I do think you dropped the ball on this one.

Peace, Love, Napalm, and all those other warm sticky things,

Shahamut

EDIT:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/KETw2nEF-quick-gameplay-thoughts-march-3

Thanks to everyone who was non-aggressive and calmly contributing to this discussion. RIOT mentioned in their gameplay thoughts post (linked above) That they have lifted the remaining ban time and are going to address this topic more specifically internally, because guess what, this topic is also highly debated within RIOT and the rules are not clearly understood on these kinds of areas.

Feel free to read the post yourselves, I look forward to hearing again from them on this topic. As I have stated, I believe RIOT to be a good company, and this action supports that train of thought. Thanks again to everyone and thank you RIOT for taking action!

147 Comments

KVbqbFsC8e9 votes

The precedent it set is that the Support belongs to the ADC. Something people didn't want to believe, but Riot now confirmed.

Shahamut28 votes

This is not the reason given by RIOT so no, but I understand your frustration.

KVbqbFsC8e7 votes

What do you think the reason was then?

I see that its claimed he was reported often because teammates (ADCs) found his playstyle "frustrating" and "unfun".

Shahamut19 votes

go read the RIOT response in the thread. They very clearly stated that he was creating a "negative experience" for other players in 50% or more of his games.

KVbqbFsC8e10 votes

Yeah, meaning that about half of the time his ADC reported him.

Shahamut9 votes

honestly, it probably wasnt just the adc, but who knows. Who reported him is honestly irrelevant. :/

DrCyanide17 votes

I wouldn't say it is irrelevant, I'd say it needs to be taken into consideration.

Imagine back when there was 2 top, 1 mid, and 2 bot. Now 1 of the top guys says "I'm going to kill jungle monsters and roam between lanes, because that'll be more effective for the team". The other top guy gets ticked because his would-be lane partner is now off playing a PvE game and dying to Raptors, leaving him in a 2v1. No matter how the game ends, the top laner is going to be ticked.

With our current meta we can say "well, yeah, of course the Jungler was right and that's what we have today" but back then it wasn't the case. He's "held hostage" by this PvE guy in a 2v1, being pushed under tower and dove over and over, generally having a miserable time. With that as your meta, you'd probably report the Jungler half the time too, regardless of if he's helping the rest of the team more.

ZyniX12 votes

Look at the current Malz supports. I used to main malz before his rework and would even try to support with him on occasion. I did get flamed but now because pros decided to it's fine? MF support sounds even more ridiculous but it's a thing now because someone had to experiment with it first. This nunu player ban makes zero sense. I bet if LCS players took smite nunu support before this incident everyone would be playing it and this guy would have never been banned.

DrCyanide6 votes

I'm just waiting for the Unicorns of Love to break it out, then everything will really hit the fan.

Narasimha2 votes

Maybe, but the counter argument has already been presented: It's very much a different thing to do smite nunu support with 4 other people who know and have practiced with it, than trying to pull it off in Solo Que.

MUSHROOM MIDGET1 votes

{quoted}

honestly, it probably wasnt just the adc, but who knows. Who reported him is honestly irrelevant. :/

nah I bet he was getting tons of reports. I occasionally decide to support mid or top instead of bot and usually most of my team says they are reporting me and sometimes some of the enemy team as well. people really flip out if you don't play the standard way.

sometimes supporting a different lane is really strong too ! people don't know how to deal with it and you can get some really easy wins. but even when it creates those easy wins I'm still getting reported most of the time.

3TWarrior2 votes

yeah, people fail to consider that it might be the opposing jungler reporting as well simply by that it can shut down their playstyle

overall, this game has become too dependent upon marksmen and junglers and should revert back to the 2 - 1 -2 lanes

it's disgusting...fun, but disgusting not to mention annoying for how many variables the jungler adds to the macro-managing of the game

Prozzak3 votes

Your line of reasoning is faltered. You need to take the meta into account with their decision. Banning simply for not following the meta will not happen. However not following the meta while not communicating properly to your team will. You cannot simply just say, "I am doing this no matter what and you are going to like it", you need to also be able to compromise and not always play and force 4 other people to play to your style of choice.

Shahamut7 votes

The more important question is how many times AM I allowed to just play what I want regardless of the other people in the games opinion of it?

Its a meta enforcing mindset that says you shouldn't buck the system if no one else likes it. He should be more considerate of them because they are the majority? When does the majority have to be considerate to the minority? Kind of a catch 22 if you ask me.

Point is you can't say that you must consider the meta if RIOT clearly states that they are not trying to enforce one. If meta is not a factor, which it isn't according to RIOT, then we don't have to consider it at all.

Photos of Ghosts3 votes

THAT IS BEING A SLAVE TO META, NOT COMMUNICATING. If picking off-meta submits you to conditions that are AMY DIFFERENT from those for meta picks, then meta is enforced and this game needs to die.

LostFr0st6 votes

{quoted} But because he created a negative experience for the other players on his team, he can be banned assuming this gets reported more than 2 or 3 times.

No, he can't be banned on that pretense. The difference here is that half of the Nunu's games are negative experiences and the Zed is just a handful of cases. The "report Zed for picking an AD champ" scenario doesn't happen due to the same exact person every second game.

Shahamut18 votes

Point still stands: Based on what RIOT has said, if you are consistently reported because whatever you are doing creates a negative experience for other players, it is now ban-able.

Remember, it has nothing to do with meta picks or positions. My Zed example is just an example of a game where I had a "negative experience".

I personally do not think its worth a ban, I am simply pointing out that by what RIOT has said in response to the nunu incident, THEIR words and reasons for the ban, makes this example ban-able if it is repeatedly reported.

OnlyYouCanHearMe5 votes

While I do agree with many of your points, and share your concerns about how the precedent could be abused by unscrupulous players, I don't think it will be quite as easy for people to be banned as people fear. I'm not certain on the number of reports the Nunu received, other than the percentage, but the Singed player was reported hundreds of times. Hundreds. The average player, even one who chooses to regularly play off-meta picks, will not come close to getting this many reports. Case in point, out of the millions of league players, this is only the second time we've had this situation arise.

If you look at any other category of reports/infractions that a person can receive or commit, it does not take hundreds of reports for them to be issued a punishment. If a player is found to be boosting, using an illegal third party program or account sharing, they can either be given a temporary or permanent suspension the first time it is caught. If a player leaves the game or afks, they can be put into the low priority queue after only a handful of times. If a player is reported for hate speech, verbal abuse or harassment, they can be issued a punishment after only a few games if it's bad enough; sometimes they can even be banned after one game of egregious hate speech.

So, for a player to be reported hundreds of times, like the Singed was, before being issued a punishment for having that much of a negative influence upon the gaming experience of other players isn't necessarily unreasonable. It's exponentially more lenient than any of the other punishment standards. Again, I have not read the thread regarding the Nunu case, so I do not know the exact numbers on how many times he was reported to know if he received as many reports as the Singed player, but even if he was only reported 50 times, that is still a multiplicative amount of reports more than any other report category allows.

Riot does a fairly good job of allowing people to break the meta. Countless streamers have based their internet careers on it. But at some point, there has to be a compromise between individual freedoms and team cooperation. And if a player is being reported in 50% of their matches, statistically speaking, that would imply that there is a breakdown in team cooperation.

Shahamut4 votes

Thank you for the well reasoned response. :) :)

You do have some good points, and what honestly concerns me is that these "only 2 ever" incidents happened relatively close together and were given by the same RIOTer.

I think that RIOT does a GREAT job overall, as I have stated, and I don't think they are intentionally trying to enforce a meta. I am simply pointing out that rulings like this are the kind of things that, intended or not, do exactly that: Enforce the Meta.

Things like this usually start out small and in "edge cases". Before you know it, it turns into 4 or 6 instances. You get the picture.

I just feel its better to address it early just in case it does become an issue, and recognize that the potential is VERY real.

Most streamers who do off meta things for their streams (to my knowledge?) do not do so in ranked games which is where this Nunu does his thing.

People, for lack of a better phrase :/, tend to be more angry meta sheep in ranked than in casual normals.

OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

I agree with you whole-heartedly that if this becomes a consistent situation, where players are being punished/banned for playing off-meta, that it would need to immediately be brought to Riot's attention that the player base is not okay with that. And judging from the responses here in this thread, in the many threads devoted to the Smite Singed, and those cropping up for the Smite Nunu, it would seem rather glaring just how emphatically the players feel about this.

Based on the comments made by the Nunu himself (I was finally able to read through his thread) and the response from WookieeCookie, Player Support Lead, there really does seem to be a bit more going on here. Some people here have suggested that he was reported because he made some teams lose, but he was reported by winning teams as well as losing ones.

One thing I would really like to see in the future is a concrete number from Riot on the number/percentage of players who are reported per season, as well as the average number of reports per player. I think it would give us an insight as to how likely situations like this are to happen, if we have an idea of how often the average players are being reported compared to players like this.

Shahamut1 votes

Not sure if you saw my edit, but it seems that people at RIOT are not on the same page for this topic as well. So RIOT is doing the right thing and temporarily lifting the ban while they get together and clarify their rules and make some major decisions for clarifying how cases like this should be handled.

Several people have suggested that perhaps it was his attitude that got him the ban. The only problem I have with that is, of course, that is not the reason given for the ban from any RIOTer. I am glad that moves are being made to clarify these things before they get way out of hand.

As I have said, I honestly believe RIOT to be a good company, doing what they think is best for their game and their community, and this action that they are taking confirms that for me. Thanks again for the response!

OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

Thank you so much for including that link in your edit! I had read Wookiee's comment on the other thread, and was really impressed with the way he handled matters, admitting that they had made a mistake in how it was handled and also admitting that they needed to come up with a policy on how to handle this in the future.

Something similar happened with the Singed, where the initial response from a Riot support specialist was... toned down... by one of the higher level/Lead specialists. It's probably a very good thing that so many people have commented in this thread, and in the Nunu's thread directly. It will give the Riot staff written, concrete evidence to substantiate what the players feel about this sort of behavior, and how it should be treated.

I saw another thread with someone mentioning his attitude, so I popped onto his stream for a few minutes. I didn't see anything bad while I was there, but I also didn't stay for too long. It really would seem just silly at this point to try and say he was being banned for a bad attitude, when as you said, that hasn't been the focus of anything up to this point. Not to mention, that could have easily been handled via the IFS. I suppose we'll just have to wait until next week to see what comes of their Support meeting to know if anything has been decided/implemented.

Shahamut2 votes

Indeed! Glad RIOT is doing what they are doing! Thanks again for the thoughtful responses in this thread! Its nice to have a decent conversation once in a while! :P

Hexs Fortune2 votes

Making a big deal over nothing.

Bottom line is if you are getting reported in 50 percent of your games wins and losses, you will be punished

SwainLaneWinGame31 votes

Even if those reports contradict riot's own rules! How amazing is that.

Who cares if it's right or wrong, as long as enough reports come flooding in, you're most likely to get punished because "negative player experience", according to Riot.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Becuase that's how the IFS works. Get reported too much and get suspended. Throw some blame to the community for reporting stuff like this instead of directing it all at Riot why don't you? They are literally upholding a ban that the community started by reporting him so often.

SwainLaneWinGame13 votes

And riot is the one that implemented that policy/system, so they're the ones directly at fault for letting players punish other players via "mob rule".

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Heh, that logic is so flawed it's funny.

It's like blaming the the Founding Fathers for allowing Trump into office because they made it a democracy and he got elected as a result via "mob rule"

#NotPolitical

NotSoEvilDead9 votes

The US isn't a democracy, it's a constitutional republic. And they designed it in such a way that even were an incompetent person to be elected into office, they could be held accountable by a set of checks and balances by others in the government.

Basically what I'm saying is that your analogy is garbage, and if you had understood what a constitutional republic is, you'd know your analogy directly contradicts what you're claiming... pretty amusing

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

The only thing amusing here is that I will throw out my spare analogy instead of bothering to reply to your thinly veiled insult. Prepare thineself. I am fully aware of what the U.S. is thank you, I passed political science!

It's like blaming the makers of a factory of chewing gum for creating a flavor that makes all the other flavors taste like garbage.

If you don't like that one I have a couple more.

It's also like blaming the police station for answering 911 prank calls and actually arresting somebody because they happened to commit a crime while the police were en route.

It is also like blaming the creators of a game company for making a justice policy that allows the community to self govern because the community decides to abuse the power.

Basically, I don't care for your comment so I won't take it seriously enough to reply seriously. I am too tired to bother, and quite frankly you know what I meant to say. So focus on the real issue here.

Edit: Holy crap this thing blew up in the 10 minutes since I last checked.

NotSoEvilDead9 votes

There was absolutely nothing in my post a reasonable person could construe as an insult, but you're welcome to take it any way you'd like.

Regardless, as I alluded to already, your first analogy was unintentionally correct. Riot should be serving as the checks and balances in rule enforcement when the community reports things that, by their own rules, are not bannable offenses. They are choosing to instead rubber stamp bad reporting behavior. Which is their prerogative, but clearly is not a popular decision gauging forum reactions over the last few days.

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

unintentionally correct

See that's the thing. Now you say it's unintentional, when before you worded it in a way that questioned my intelligence, but whatever. Enough fooling around on my end.

I agree. If you saw my earlier post that has been downvoted like 9 times in the last 5 minutes despite going for 2 hours at +2, I mentioned that the community is to blame for this as much as Riot because they reported this guy so much that Riot had to step in.

The fact that people in ranked are so trigger happy with that report button when anything off-meta shows up in their games means something. To me this means that people are willing to take out the frustration of their losses on another, and if they can label it as "trolling" then they will do it. Especially if they truly believe that anything off-meta is trolling.

So my conclusion is that Riot can't trust the community to decide things like this. More specifically, they can't trust the community to report people for "trolling" if they report for reasons like this. We need more manual reviews of cases like this and the support staff needs to be aware that situations like this do not constitute trolling. So the reports can be thrown out.

NotSoEvilDead6 votes

{quoted}

So my conclusion is that Riot can't trust the community to decide things like this. More specifically, they can't trust the community to report people for "trolling" if they report for reasons like this. We need more manual reviews of cases like this and the support staff needs to be aware that situations like this do not constitute trolling. So the reports can be thrown out.

Agreed 100%. Well said.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

Finally, a completely reasonable and civil discussion that was sour at the beginning. I take some of the blame but did it really warrant so many downvotes at the start? :(

NotSoEvilDead4 votes

¯_(ツ)_/¯

The forums are a fickle mistress, I guess. Here, have some upvotes

DrCyanide4 votes

This was Manual Review, not Instant Feedback System.

The Instant Feedback System couldn't verify the player's reports, and thus didn't take action.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Pretty sure the IFS flagged this case for Manual review, as nobody would have the foresight to just bring up this game.

My guess is that a Rioter not familiar with off-meta picks being viable in high elo judged this game.

Edit: Bascially the whole point of my posts in this thread is to stop jabbing at Riot and let's have a look at ourselves for a minute. The community reported this guy enough to get banned, so we need to adjust our attitude about what constitutes trolling if we are to continue to have the responsibility of training the instant feedback system.

Papa Andrei4 votes

Riot and Community is to blame. Community for being to thickheaded to understand innovation. (lol reminds me or the early Church days.) and for Riot for agreeing with them, and for also being hypocritical of their own statements.

BigBellBrute2 votes

{quoted}

So, Nunu support/smite was (according to what I read by RIOT) banned NOT for his pick, and NOT for his strategy, but the fact that enough people said it had a negative impact on their experience...

No. Wrong. That's not what he was banned for. You simply pulled that out of your rump to try and make your argument easier.

Shahamut17 votes

we also found that nearly 50% of their games were reported by teammates as frustrating and unfun

and...

players cried out how terrible the experience was for them and we intervened.

and...

The effects on others in his games were enough for us to lock the account and we stand by that.

You can go back to the thread and re-read it all in context, but it is very clear that he was banned because of his affect on other players' "experience". Please refrain from arguing without reading.

Magical Player3 votes

{quoted}

and...

and...

You can go back to the thread and re-read it all in context, but it is very clear that he was banned because of his affect on other players' "experience". Please refrain from arguing without reading.

In the same way a troll is banned for having a negative effect on players.... Guess we shouldn't ban trolls...... because they're just being reported for ruining peoples games

Shahamut17 votes

You have not defined what a troll is. By your account thus far, the Nunu player was "trolling".

By my understanding, a troll is intentionally trying to cause problems in the game for his team: feeding, taking farm from adc, stealing jungle camps and xp by following him around, etc.

The only similarity is that someone was upset, how can you call trolling and what the nunu player did the same?

Magical Player1 votes

{quoted}

You have not defined what a troll is. By your account thus far, the Nunu player was "trolling".

By my understanding, a troll is intentionally trying to cause problems in the game for his team: feeding, taking farm from adc, stealing jungle camps and xp by following him around, etc.

The only similarity is that someone was upset, how can you call trolling and what the nunu player did the same?

elduris (NA) - about 2 hours ago You're confusing "meta" with "game fundamentals." If you ask nearly anyone that plays this game "what is a support?" you will get relatively the same answer. A player to play alongside the marksman in the bottom lane for at least the duration of laning phase. The problem with this "counterjungle Nunu support" isn't the Nunu pick, or the taking of Smite over Exhaust. It's the lack of presence of the support player in the bottom lane for at least the duration of laning phase. Do you see the issue here yet? Nunu is not fulfilling the role of support, as defined by most players. He may have a different definition of what it means to be a support, fine, but given that most people expect one thing, you can see where people can get upset.

What if my definition of jungling was to go into the enemy base and farm their minions before they get to lane? Should I be allowed to play my jungle role in that manner? If so, what do you say to the other 4 people on my team who I set behind by farming their XP and gold all game? If not, tell me why my definition of jungle is any different than this player's definition of support.

Shahamut12 votes

Nunu is not fulfilling the role of support, as defined by most players.

That is a tactical decision by the Nunu. Its different, yes, but he is clearly trying to win the game with what he does. The strategy has obvious cons, but there are also a few nugget pros as well.

You're confusing "meta" with "game fundamentals."

I disagree. You are using game fundamentals the same way I use meta: the common strategy and set up that most players use. Game fundamentals are things:

  • Right click to move -These are minions -This is the dragon/baron and it gives you buffs -These are the lanes, referred to as Top, Mid and Bot respectively -This area outside of the lanes is called the jungle

Any part of what champions go to what lanes and perform what roles is meta.

Do you see the issue here yet? Nunu is not fulfilling the role of support, as defined by most players.

And as I have defined, this is Nunu breaking the meta.

What if my definition of jungling was to go into the enemy base and farm their minions before they get to lane?

That is a strategic decision you could make, I might argue that if it is your definition of "jungling" you may want to reconsider your strategy's title as it has nothing to do with the "jungle".

Should I be allowed to play my jungle role in that manner?

Sure, but you should expect reports if you can't explain to me what advantage you are bringing to the team. If you are just intentionally bringing problems for our team, you fall under my definition of trolling.

If so, what do you say to the other 4 people on my team who I set behind by farming their XP and gold all game?

See previous point, you have just admitted to trolling at this point. :P

tell me why my definition of jungle is any different than this player's definition of support.

Your stategic definition of jungle, as I already pointed out, doesn't involve the jungle at all. Your strategy, if you are indeed not trolling, needs a different name.

He is supporting his team in a different way. He is constantly setting the enemy jungler behind (advantage) helping to secure buffs (advantage), ganking (advantage).

Also, his strategy is not entirely new, as he pointed out, Bard was designed to be a roaming support. To support his entire team and not just the bot lane. If I remember correctly, that is something RIOT actually said when introducing Bard as a champion.

Magical Player1 votes

Sure, but you should expect reports if you can't explain to me what advantage you are bringing to the team. If you are just intentionally bringing problems for our team, you fall under my definition of trolling. right there this is where the NUNU got caught for

Shahamut8 votes

He is supporting his team in a different way. He is constantly setting the enemy jungler behind (advantage) helping to secure buffs (advantage), ganking (advantage).

I gave you some of his specific reasoning, actually left out a few things. Going to say I doubt anyone asked him or tried to work with him on what he was trying to achieve.

EDIT: Also, he wasn't intentionally trying to cause his teams problems. He was trying to win. Not a troll by my definition.

Magical Player2 votes

{quoted}

I gave you some of his specific reasoning, actually left out a few things. Going to say I doubt anyone asked him or tried to work with him on what he was trying to achieve.

I'm going to say I doubt he asked anyone or tried to work with anyone on what they were trying to achieve So instead he went with "Ima do what I want"(self centered, expense of his own team)

Disadvantages: Takes teams jungle camps, setting his jungler behind leaves adc alone, to 2v1 making them gold starved saps xp from other lanes as he is constantly running in and out of them, setting other lanes behind in xp and possible gold

Shahamut7 votes

He doesn't just steal team jungle camps. It is a counter jungle focused strategy. His jungler is actually ahead on average according to the stats he gave.

Yes, leaving the adc alone is a tradeoff, one that he acknowledged, but on the plus side, they do get solo lane xp so they can be ahead in levels.

He isn't sapping a bunch of xp from other lanes, now you are just grasping for straws. Not only that, but if his ganks push off the enemy laner or get kills, it actually puts his laner ahead, not behind.

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

ROLES ARE META FFS, how do you even breathe?

Magical Player4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=YfEvUiuz,comment-id=000500000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-01T11:23:01.766+0000)

ROLES ARE META FFS, how do you even breathe?

Lungs intake oxygen, blood takes oxygen and replaces with carbon dioxide. I then exhale the co2, then the cycle is rinse repeat i suppose But thats just me maybe you're not like me

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