@RIOT:Reasons to REMOVE Skarner's spires [long post]

Shahamut··23 votes·9,593 views

Skarner's spires have been a problem since they were introduced. Mostly for Skarner players. The spires themselves, I personally feel, were a poor homage to the late dominion game mode. Overall, they are a poorly thought out/executed ability, and doesn't make sense in either gameplay or lore The rest of this post will attempt to show why that is:

GAMEPLAY Role Diversity: This is a point I brought up with Riotscruffy when the concept was first introduced to the player base. It was shrugged off as an "unfortunate side effect" and pushed through anyway. This season, RIOT stated that one of their goals for champions this season was role diversity, and as long as Skarner has this passive, he is handicapped in ANY role that isn't jungle, and even then, these spires don't exactly do what Riotscruffy was trying to achieve:

Location (objective control): Riotscruffy wanted to attempt to give Skarner a niche in the area of objective control, and he hoped that the spires would do this. Truth is, he should have said "dragon and baron control" since they are only 2 objectives on the map. The primary and most important objectives are Towers, Inhibitors, and the enemy Nexus. Skarner's spires give no power in those areas, either allied or enemy. Truth be told, they don't even give him any kind of real advantage in controlling Baron or Dragon either. Abilities like Nunu' s "Consume", Cho'Gath's "Feast", or Kalista's "Rend are better at controlling Baron or Dragon, since they add burst to your smite ability and make it harder to steal for the enemy, and easier for you to steal. Another problem that bleeds into this one is:

Location (indication): If the enemy team controls the spire and you want to take Dragon or Baron as Skarner, you either have to A) Let the entire enemy team know you are taking it or B) do it without your spire bonus. In both cases, the spires fail to aid you in controlling the objective: which was their stated purpose. It's also problematic for counterjungling for the same reason. It either tells the enemy where you are, or it doesn't get used to keep your position hidden. #feelsbadman

Location (jungle camps): the spires location presents one other small problem in their location: they don't cover all the camps. Gromp is minor since you can kite him into the zone, but Krugs, the camp that typically takes the longest to clear, is outside of the zone influence completely. This is a minor point, but is still a point none the less.

Feast or Famine (mostly famine): when it first released, it seemed as though it was a mostly feast zone: no one could fight Skarner in those zones at pretty much any point in the game. His clear speed was extrodinary, and he farmed himself into a lead and kept it. They obviously tuned that down... way down. Now, it's mostly famine. Skarner isn't much stronger in his zone till much later in the game, and if your team is losing, you will NEVER control these special zones, completely denying Skarner's already limited passive which consumes a decent portion of his power budget. Being able to completely deny this much of his power, which is already limited by location (meaning he pretty much has no passive when defending base or closing out games) is just bad design, imho.

LORE

Zone control doesn't really make sense: Sure, the beginning of the lore makes Skarner a guardian, but that isn't where the story leaves us. Skarner is on the move, searching for the lost Crystals of his brethren. He is hunting. If Skarner were to find these life stones lying around, he would certainly not leave them there but take them back to his dying brethren.

Each Brakken draws it's power from a SINGLE life stone: Skarner's current passive has him drawing power from multiple crystals on the map. According to the lore, he only draws life and power from one life stone: the one fused to his tail.

BONUS

Venomous Stings: Mentioned in the lore, but not truly expressed in his kits design/execution.

Skarner's class: Understanding Skarner is apparently a bit of a chore as no one (player base or RIOT employees) can agree on what Skarner IS. I will state my opinion, but let's start with a little bit of history:

Upon release, Skarner was described as a "true hybrid fighter". In those days, concepts where much simpler. Your melee characters were basically decided into one of 2 categories: Tanks and Fighters. (Can't remember if assassin's were a class yet). Skarner was a fighter: a melee damage dealer. His was described as a hunter, dragging lonely victims to their inevitable doom.

As time went on, RIOT began the monumental task of trying to better define classes to aid them in their design choices and to help new players understand the strengths that a particular champion brings to the table. Now, at first everyone agreed that Skarner was in fact a fighter: melee champion with a sustained damage pattern, but when they created the subclasses, they didn't really make a subclass that truly fit Skarner, making him a bit of an odity. So, they threw him into the juggernaut class.

As a juggernaut Skarner was unique, in that he had most of the tools Juggernauts were supposed to lack, namely more than one soft cc: ranged slow, stun, supression. His damage was sufficient, but it gave him too much overall. So Riot nerfed his damage.

As these changes took place, it became clear that he wasn't a juggernaut; but he was still a fighter right? Riot moved him into the diver class. The problem with Skarner as a diver, is that he doesn't play like one. Skarner has no jumps, blinks or dsshes with which to bypass an enemy frontline (see Jax or Rek'Sai). His damage had been hit pretty hard still as well, so Skarner was feeling more like a tank now then before. Wanting to keep that aggressive playstyle in mind, he is now described as a vanguard, or initiating tank.

Skarner has suffered long enough from this identity crisis in my opinion. Skarner is a hunter, his lore describes his fighting as ferocious, his quotes "limb from limb!" and his motivation to tirelessly seek the life crystals of his dying brethren all point to a damage dealing chase you down and kill you at all cost to get back what's rightfully mine kind of character. He is passionate, motivated and ready to do what's necessary. Let's look at his kit:

Q: Crystal Slash- I like the aoe of this ability, as it sort of displays the ferocious and untamed combat I would expect from this champion. It powers up after the initial strike, showing a progressive sort of rage which fits nicely, especially with Skarner's new lore. As an X-Skarner main, it's also iconic in that up until the juggernaut fiasco, this was Skarner's main skill, and it pushed his dps playstyle.

W: Crystalline Exoskeleton- Originally, Skarner also had healing in his kit. But it was weak and hard to balance so it was removed. W, remains as Skarner's one form of what I call sudo-sustain. At max rank, (and if you rush cdr... you should) it's a low cooldown shield that also empowers Skarner to chase down his enemies. Built in counter play allows you to break his shield to slow his advance.

E: Fracture- currently, Skarner's E is overloaded as heck, but I will stick to it's core functionality: a ranged skill shot that slows targets down, allowing Skarner a better chance at catching them. They brought back the Mark and proc for some added cc (stun). Still, originally, this was your last skill to max, and provided the utility needed to make Skarner not 110% likeable, assuming you can land Skill shots.

R: Impale- Skarner's most iconic ability, a single target suppression that allows him to relocate a target victim manually.

So what is Skarner's kit good at?

Sustained damage: Skarner's primary source of damage is Auto Attacks and Q spam. Though the AoE from Q is nice periferal damage, I wouldn't call it 1v2 material in and of itself, rhough it certainly helps.

AoE: the AoE from his Q and E makes him good at clearing jungle camps and minion waves. This means he could potentially be a powerful farm jungler or even split pusher.

Single Target CC: Yes, currently you could potentially stun multiple people after one cast of his E (fracture), but I can tell you from experience that it is VERY rare. Certainly not a common enough occurrence to call it a thing he does. Single Target cc chaining Though? That is a thing he does.

Map mobility: His low cooldown W allows Skarner to move around the map pretty well.

Conclusion: much to the disagreement of many (no surprise right?) I believe Skarner is a Skirmisher. He wants to hunt and fight lone targets. His kit makes him great at 1v1 dueling, having good tools for split pushing and catching people out between lanes. Like all good Skirmishers, Skarner has useful things in his kit if behind so as not to be completely irrelevant (Yasuo windwall, Fiora aoe heal). In teamfights, and when behind, his cc is best used to peel, keeping divers and assassins off of his carry.

I have made many suggestions on different ways to fix Skarner. My most recent is closest to his state prior to the juggernaut changes (which was my favorite version). I will provide a link here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tYUrcpoX-remove-skarner-spires

I hope that a red will read and respond to this. Thanks to anyone who read the whole thing.

Skarner "I miss my kind..."

18 Comments

Cowgirl Ed6 votes

another garbage rework tbh adding unneeded retarded minigames to another champion that was fine

Shahamut2 votes

6 upvoted so far. No comments. Please Riot?

Y 02 votes

Make skarner great again!

Shahamut1 votes

:-)

Teridax682 votes

Personally, one of my biggest issues with Skarner's spires is that they introduce a ton of complexity for very little added depth of gameplay. It's a textbook example of the minigames Riot had once introduced on a whole bunch of champions, which were largely criticized by players: the gameplay is entirely artificial, since there isn't really any kind of point control gameplay on Summoner's Rift, and while it takes up a lot of attention, it doesn't actually give Skarner or his opponents all that much extra choice. When Skarner, a jungler champion, caps a spire to clear a camp faster, or when his opponent does the same while roaming the jungle, those spires feel more like chores, rather than objectives to be contested by the whole team. Additionally, the spire mostly operates by providing a large stat boost to Skarner, rather than some entirely new power (besides a short burst of vision), which makes the gameplay around the mechanic a lot more binary than it could be (Skarner tends to win fights when hasted, and tends to lose otherwise).

What I think Skarner needs on his passive, more than his current spires, is a way of making his freight train-style gameplay genuinely interesting. The problem with Skarner, as with many other melee champions, is that he tends to feel very one-note, as his only option in combat is to charge his opponent head-on and then Q spam them to death. His E and R are both interesting, but his Q and W have so little decision-making attached to them that they may as well not even be abilities, just extra stat boosts. Effectively, more than half of Skarner's entire kit lacks interesting gameplay, which is why he feels so unengaging to play to so many. Removing his spires, and focusing extra hard on giving him simple mechanics that truly add to his gameplay, and give everyone involved more and deeper options, could even propel him completely out of the doldrums he's been in since his release, and make him a truly interesting champion to all.

Shahamut3 votes

While I do agree with your first paragraph 100%, I don't necessarily think Skarner's Q and W are what is holding him back.

I think there is definitely a place in lol for some simpler mechanics to exist. Champions like Garen have very simple mechanics, but I think his kit expresses Garen's character very well.

Now, that being said, I still think pre-juggernaut Skarner was the best itteratio. Of him thus far. His Q mechanic was something opponents could play around in lane, and they had a chance to try and get away from Skarner before stun as he had to hit 3 abilities first. Skarner also had the choice between a stun or more ult damage, which was key in winning duels at times. His W, all rhough simple, has always had counter play built in.

Q in its current form is indeed lack luster, but I don't think he needs a whole new ability, he just needs the energize passive back on it (stacking move/attack speed buff) and a better passive. E- Fracture: just needs reverted... too much stuff on it at present.

Teridax682 votes

I completely agree, there is room for simple mechanics, and as a matter of fact I think League's designers should be doing much more effort in avoiding to make their kits hypercomplex, as that has been a problem with many champions, including reworks. However, that's a little different from what I'm saying: my problem with Skarner's Q and W isn't that they're simple, as simple mechanics can have fantastic gameplay, but that those abilities lack depth, i.e. interesting choices and gameplay for Skarner, his allies, and his opponents. There are a ton of very simple abilities that have a lot of depth: Singed's Poison Trail is dirt simple, for example, but adds a ton of new gameplay to the champion, having him move and fight in a manner completely unlike any other. Similarly, Gangplank's oranges are a simple ability with a lot of interesting choice on when to use the ability, when to hold off, and how his opponent can play around it.

By contrast, Skarner's Q and W add virtually no additional gameplay in this sense: there is essentially just one way to use either ability, and the potential for mastery on how to use them is similarly very low (you press a button and bam, that's the whole effect). This is not a good thing to have on a champion known for having a very limited playstyle, one where he basically just does one thing over and over again, and either wins or loses depending on the enemy's comp and his own stats. Skarner needs more choice and options in how to handle certain fights, and his Q and W are the perfect way to introduce that kind of gameplay, though I again agree the abilities should not aim to become more complex.

Shahamut2 votes

Overall, I feel what you are saying. As far as Q goes, it's one of the reasons I liked pre-juggernaut Skarner, because you had to manage your energized stacks. Opponents new when Skarner didn't have them and could play around that. Same thinking, I liked when his old passive allowed him to choose a stun or bonus damage for consuming the e stack Mark on opponents. It gave Skarner some different options based on the situation.

As far as W, I feel like this skill kind of just "fills" what his kit needs to function. He has no sustain, so a low cooldown shield sort of fills that gap. The movespeed buff is needed since he has to run people down. Yeah, it's nothing special, but I'm not sure what kind of ability you would replace it with. What I don't want is a gap closer/dash/blink. There are plenty of champions who do that. I dunno. Your thoughts?

Teridax683 votes

Re: Skarner's W, I personally also think a shield makes perfect sense on him, so I don't want to remove it, but I do think the shield could provide a bonus that he could optimize through good play and decision-making. A long-standing idea I had for his W was that instead of granting movement speed, it instead absorbed and nullified all incoming CC as it held, applying it all in one go the moment the shield breaks. That way, Skarner could use his shield at the right time to plow through certain incoming disables, and could also choose whether to use the shield to absorb damage (i.e. use it until it breaks in high-damage situations), or to delay CC (i.e. use it in situations where he expects to take less damage as he attacks his opponent). On the flipside, this would allow his opponent to outplay the shield by applying a disable, then breaking the shield at a key moment to disrupt Skarner when he doesn't want that to happen. Unstoppability and playing around the enemy's crowd control I think is a set of mechanics with tremendous potential, one that has been left almost completely unexplored by Riot. Any champion who has to walk up to their opponent in order to affect them I think deserves to have the tools to shrug off incoming fire, assuming those tools are used properly, and Skarner could be a prime candidate for this.

I also completely agree with your assessment on pre-Juggernaut Update Skarner, and I agree that he was my favorite iteration of the champion thus far. I main jungle, and Skarner was one of my main champions when he had that kit, as I loved the challenge inherent in landing E and sticking to my target in order to build up towards his stun. His ganks felt satisfying, yet fair, and while he did still have issues then when trying to contribute to teamfights, it at least felt like he had clear tactical gameplay tied to his stacks and focus on specific targets.

Shahamut2 votes

The trucking idea is interesting, though I would want to reward Skarner by either negating the cc or halving it's effects if the shield lasted the entire duration. I think that sounds awesome though overall :-)

Would have to increase his base movement speed to compensate. Probably?

Teridax682 votes

Indeed, having the CC decrease in intensity the longer the shield lasts could be a good way of pushing the two gameplay types even more, and have Skarner actively avoid damage while trying to stop CC. I agree that if he loses his movespeed, he may have to receive buffs to his bases, especially if he exchanges his spires for another effect as well, though as a general rule I think melee champions in this current environment could afford to have fewer persistent movement speed boosts, and greater base movespeed in exchange.

Shahamut3 votes

I think that's fair enough. What I would personally like to see, including the new "trucking " buff:

Movespeed: 350

Passive: Venomous strikes- I want Skarner to use his tail more, Master Yi style where it's every so many strikes he uses his tail, deals bonus damage and applies some kind of debuff.

Q: back to pre-juggernaut. Make this his bread and butter skill again.

W: new shield and anti-cc ability. Sounds like fun.

E: Keep the ranged slow, Mark for stun. But instead of bonus damage, have the proc restore some mana. Increased vs champions/large monsters. No cooldown mechanic.

R: have it deal initial damage and damage when the supression breaks. Have the second part apply his passive.

That would be the best thing ever in my mind.

Silent Crescendo2 votes

[deleted]

Shahamut1 votes

Lol. People complained about my short posts not having "substance" so I wrote this up in response to criticism XD

DragonShea1 votes

Skarner is a juggernaut with some vanguard elements due to his CC and shield. He is in the same category of juggs that like to run up and merc your ass with rapid AA or Ability spam called Freight trains(Garen Shyvana Udyr Volibear ) some freight trains veer close to being vanguards due to their tankiness.

More from Gameplay

More by Shahamut